Why can't farmers do shit without goverment grants

Like why the fuck do we always need to subsidise them??? Why is it like that.

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Perfect competition

They'll grow too much food and crash the food economy.

Because food stability is more important than anything. A temporary crash while the food market is corrected by the invisible hand would destroy American society because people riot if they think food isn't there. Even if it was for a day, empty shelves would cause an instant civil war or at least an economic depression

This is a great question.

Subsidies in my opinion do not help. This comes from experience as a small scale farmer and limited research into the idea of market control. I think that people should have to pay more for their food. In the USA meat is cheaper than vegetables. Do veggies and fresh healthy foods get help?

Subsidies create a false market. CORN SYRUP, SOY SHITS, MEAT, corn ETHANOL wtf?!?!

We must also ask are there farmers who are not subsidized? Where?

What other businesses are heavily reliant on government support, or tax loopholes.

All the companies who recieved bailouts come to mind when thinking who has been propped up by tax payers

This. It's best to have a permanent surplus of food even if that means subsidising the farming of lots of food that never gets eaten.

If it was about having a food surplus meat would not be cheaper than vegetables.

It is much easier to produce 1 ton of plant matter than one ton of flesh.

This

Farming is rich mans welfare

so if a farmer grows too much one season, and cant sell all of it, why would he continue to do so?

unless there is some retarded program guaranteeing the payment for his hard work

I don't think the governments are aiming to be efficient though. As long as there's a surplus they don't care what it costs. Greeks probably understand how wasteful governments are more than anyone

wtf?
how do I get the gobment to pay me to grow shit?

Alot of farmers have bins so they can store their grain for over a year np. Also elevators where they can pay storage fees. They can also contract grain at certain prices. Elevators can sit on grain for years.

Large scale farms cut deals with large scale suppliers and supermarkets to mass sell their mass produced produce cheaply. That coupled with supermarkets selling products like milk and grain products at a loss to drive up overall sales by attracting more customers has made food very cheap. Smaller farms can't compete and so governments started to subsidise them so supply would not fall as it would dramatically raise prices from their artificially deflated values.

The biggest concern to farmers is the price of grain at that time. Its just like the stock market. A surplus just lowers the price

>you need to understand that it is about the goverment and therefore Corporations controlling Food supply.
read about New zeland, they dont have subsidies

largest welfare queens on the planet.

By that logic we should subsidize poor people to have kids otherwise they'd breed out of control.

>he didn't know

Oh you sweet summer child

I know, I was being facetious

You call a person who doesnt eat his whole plate wasteful. You call a toilet that uses too much water wasteful.

What you call the government is a thief member of the world council of thieves. A complete fraud. A reason to wake up and reconsider your position as a "free" man.

Apart from Walmart, Amazon, Bitcoin, and all the major banks who are the cause of this shit in the first place.

What you call farmers it's actually agriculture and agriculture was never a one man job.

Unless you want to die of hunger or not having tomatoes all year around.

>Farming is rich mans welfare
Not really. Most subsidies are going to huge multinational corporations, not family farms. The original premise for subsidies was stability in the food chain but they are no longer needed as mechanization has made most farming profitable enough to stand on its own.
There have been some "subsidies" that were winners. The conservation reserve program reduced over production keeping prices viable for producers and consumers while protecting vast areas of sensitive habitat that would have been put into production (destroyed) without said program(s).
The most damaging subsidy is the pittance permitees pay to (over) graze public lands in the western U.S. By their nature, the public lands here were not productive enough to be homesteaded, purchased, or otherwise developed profitably, that's why they were left unclaimed and slated for disposal until 1976 when FLPMA came into being. More than a century and a half of over grazing has left these lands in terrible condition. The family grazing/ranching operations dependent on the subsidies are not viable without them. The large agricultural/food/processors conglomerates and corporations that are buying up huge ranches and farms in the American west have enough of a lobbying presence to keep the gravy train running even though the result is ecological disaster on the landscape scale. Low elevation public lands receiving under 13" of annual precipitation have suffered Armageddon tier destruction and degradation. Not to mention the billions in other types of subsidies spent on fire fighting, range improvements, water developments, post fire emergency fencing, environmentalist lawsuits, "monitoring" , administrative expenses, research, wildlife impacts etc. It's an expensive, destructive set of subsidies that needs to end before more land tips over into desertification.
t. family farmer/rancher

>wtf?
>how do I get the gobment to pay me to grow shit?
That's not how it works. They get paid NOT to grow shit. Keeps prices/demand up, keeps farmers in business. The question remains, if they must have subsidies to survive, should they even be in business or should unbridled capitalism rule the food chain?

Because you're stupid ass thinks you should be able to buy a cooked chicken for less than what the average person makes an hour.
>a chicken
>lived for 3 months
>ate for 3 months
>drank for 3 months
>fed antibiotics for 3 months
>transported to a slaughter house in gas guzzling semi
>slaughtered
>transported to a supermarket 1000 miles away in gas guzzling semi
>seasons and stuffed in supermarket
>cooked in supermarket
You walk in and buy it for less than you make an hour. Yep, makes sense.

>subsidies is capitalism

Neck yourself, commie scum. Don't blame the shit you shat out on us.

I dunno about your country but here they practically give vegetables away. Berries are a bit more expensive, but apples and oranges are cheap as hell.

10lb bag of potatos- $2
10 lb bag of beans - $2
5lb bag of oranges - $4
5lb bag of apples - $5

10 lb beef prime rib - $150
10lb brisket - $20
And so on, if you want cheap meat you can get pork tenderloins, spare ribs, roasts, and such for dirt cheap.

You can buy a whole rotisserie cooked chicken here for $4

(((Strategic decision))).
Farmers are on needle and can not do anything without (((government))).
Hunger is a powerful weapon and it's future use must be reserved to (((government))).

>>subsidies is capitalism
I did not say nor imply that. I asked a question, care to answer it civilly?
> The question remains, if they must have subsidies to survive, should they even be in business or should unbridled capitalism rule the food chain?

That's my point... the chicken ate more than $4 worth of feed in its life. Then put on top of that all the other costs i listed. A cooked chicken would have to cost like $40 to produce.

This doesn't even make sense. A firm aims to maximize profit while minimizing cost.

Scenario 1 : Farmer grows too much food, sells it all, but needs more so then he will grow more because he's trying to make more profit.

Scenario 2: Farmers grows a ton of food, doesn't sell it all, so he'll grow less next year because he wants to keep costs down.

Scenario 3: Farmer gets subsized by the government, grows whatever the fuck he wants because and doesn't care if he sells or not because daddy fed will always be there for him.

That's the point he's making - without subsidies, the food would be way more expensive. Food subsidies are one of the few government programs I agree with - they keep food affordable and allow the US to be a net food exporter.

good goys love their monsanto gmos.

Learn to read, Jamal

The government taxes the fuck out of land

The government are niggers

samefags

>The Netherlands is the world's second largest exporter of agricultural products.
why is this allowed

The subsidies that make food cheap to other countries importing out food push their government to give their farmers a subsidy and the mess gets bigger. The subsidy has to come from somewhere; taxes. You're paying for it either way. You're paying for a deadweight loss.

You're playing accounting tricks to justify this.

pay me or Im going to grow 100 billion pounds of vegetables

our* not out

They're bad at their jobs, the only thing they make is corn so corn's gotta be in everything. It's amazing how much a shit industry will be protected in a capitalist society because of "muh heartland".

Because they're not allowed to use antique farm equipment anymore and a John Deere Nigger-Picker-9000 is the fucking price of a small mortgage.
That's before we even get into the Monsanto monopoly.
Pic unrelated

Basically this. If they weren't subsidizing the food monopoly that exists in the world all of your favorite comfort foods would become prohibitively expensive to the point that you might go and figure out how to do it on your own and then you'd realize that you don't need the government and the big corporations as much as you thought you did and that you're just playing into a grand virtual slavery scheme and all the Jews would get lynched.

Because Governemnt is a massive protection racket. Think of it like a giant legitimized Mafia. They take money from you and ensure your protection.

Part of doing that in the world of massive militaries is ensuring a stable supply chain for oil, food, and other resources necessary to fuel the war machine. The US govt must ensure that we have the ability to gear up for a war on 3 fronts within a small window and sustain that war effort for an extended period.

So they need to make sure farm production is both incredibly stable and reliable and also entirely dependent on them. Every farmer is essentailly a government employee. It's too dangerous for national security to let them be exposed to market fluctuations

I guess that would be important if shit hits the fan, but in normal times, why not import from countries with cheaper labor or cost structures for food production? I guess food spoilage is what differentiates it from a more durable good.

This one main reasons for subsidies. If we were all charged what it cost to product X amount of a particular food, we would be poor as fuck.

Machinery, fertilizer, seed, irrigation piping/pumps/etc., labor and the huge uncertainty of what the fuck the weather is actually going to do.

It's because of big agra and all the rest of them wanting to control the food supply, partly because they want everyone on unhealthy weakening diets, and partly because they make shitloads of money from controlling the whole industry.

It's also because we stupidly use food as fuel. Corn-based ethanol is the worst thing to happen to our food. If food scarcity is already a problem wait until the energy market comes along and fucks it up even more.

Ethanol is being fucked right now by the low price of mineral oil.

We subsidize the shit out of vegetables, just specific ones. Corn, wheat, soy. Lettuce has no nutritional value. You can't survive on broccoli, it's 150 calories per pound. Most veggies on the shelf are just ruffage for your gut microbes.

niggerfag

>Take away our self-replicating farm equipment
>Expect us to be as profitable as before

Netherlands pls

>unhealthy weakening diets
Why? Wouldn't living longer mean that you consume their product longer?

It's a national security matter. In case shit hits the fan your country must be able to sustain itself.

Cause a lot of farmers can't take that much in losses before going bankrupt.

This.

>subsidize the shit out of food costs
>obesity epidemic
Really makes me think

Bingo

>In the USA meat is cheaper than vegetables
>onions 1 buck a pound
>cow meat 14 bucks a pound
yeah, no. maybe frankfurt wieners but that's not meat.


I do agree that food should be more expensive and people should be much better educated on how to prepare proper meals.

you also have to take into account that most people dont want to have to do anything with working the fields, so fewer and fewer hands have to produce more and more food.

If you ask me, a proper society would do as the romans and regard agriculture highly, but whatever.

They also have a very low population density and a relatively agrarian economy. Urbanization requires much more stable food supply because the logistics of feeding the greaters NYC tristate area are more complicated than the entire country of New Zealand.

this is also one of the reasons why norway wont join the eu.
Norway has a policy of self reliance, meaning all food that we need, we must have the ability to produce ourselves if an international economic collapse hits or another disaster.
Joining the eu would mean that we become completely reliant on food imports, because we won't be allowed to subsidize farming, and farming is fucking hard in norway so we won't be able to compete in the market either

Oh yeah, because price hikes on food prices are such good thing for large urban populations.

The issue is you get a lopsided proportion of 1's or 2's and the whole industry goes bankrupt and needs a bailout anyways cause what else are you gonna do? Starve?

Luckily the Federal gov can't tax property, but state govs can and do.

I guess when the Spanish and Portuguese kicked out their Merchant Jews, they went to Holland and started a mercantile empire there.

So you pay $63 of a $400 paycheck. Stop crying lolbertarian. Paying taxes is not the end of the world. Pay your shit and enjoy the benefits.

It all ties together, they want you healthy enough to put in 40 hours but too weak and diseased to pose any kind of threat to the power structure. Also you being sick brings in big bux for the pharma industry, as long as you're not dead they can always make more money off of your illnesses

Maybe the Obese nogs would lose some weight then and we wouldn't have to pay such high healthcare premiums.

control the food, control the people
most of the food you eat is produced by one of a handful of corporations...and most of the laws that have been passed are not to protect the consumer, but to protect the giants that make up BigAg....little farmers can't afford to follow all the laws and make a profit (look into the regulations on dairy, it is impossible to make any money off of 1 dairy cow, yet the family cow used to be a nearly guaranteed small income for the small farmer)....to sell a dozen eggs a week at $3, I have to have both a business licence and pay a $20 annual fee (which goes up the more eggs you produce for sale)....without the fees, that sale of eggs pays for the chickens' feed (so I break even); with the fees, I will never break even selling so few eggs, so why even bother?
There are dozens of laws and regulations like that for every single aspect of farming....and people wonder why small farming has declined so much in the last 50-60 years? BigAg has regulated them out of business.

we have ids here you dumb nigger

You can't control the environment. Weather, insects, and animals. Many times crop failure is completely out of their control. Plus they can't own slaves anymore. I know farmers, I think many of them are lazy, and it doesn't really bother them to lose a crop. Knowing another million dollar loan will be waiting next year. But farmers do not only grow food, they grow animals as well. Cows are not the hardest animals to raise, as long as they have grass, water, and maybe some salt/minerals. They take care of themselves, and their offspring. What you gonna do, we got to eat, beside I am a lazy fuck /oilguy, I over charge you for gas, and reap the benefits of government subsidies that should not exist. Just got our tax credits turned in for the year.

It's hard for them to compete with US subsidized farms using beaner laborers paid $2 an hour otherwise.

This.

rules, taxes and regulations make it impossible to run a farm. you're also not allowed to overfarm, which means they can't sustain their farm without subsidies.

it's dumb but that's how government stifles growth :(

Or perhaps it would lead to mass starvation followed by massive death toll.

>You're playing accounting tricks to justify this.
Tbphfam, our entire system is one big accounting trick.

If you got a problem with subsidies try buying from local small farms. This doesn't really work for grain but you don't necessarily need to eat the carbohydrate Jew.

meanwhile in California there is actually shortage of nuts fruits and other vegetables that are only grown in California and South America.

why don't farmers grow these cash crops like Avacados, pomegranate, Coffee etc instead of relying on corn ? ?? that is already over surplussed in china and brazil.

>You're playing accounting tricks to justify this.
yeah so is the govt
haha this

>Like why the fuck do we always need to subsidise them??? Why is it like that.
Farmers cannot afford to plant the crops without taking out loans.

Just another way for the government to fuck the taxpayer while getting kickbacks from corporations that supply farmers.

this "nobody wants to work in the fields" meme is total utter bullshit... nobody ever asks white people to work all the jobs are taken by friends of friends and that's all spics. I live in a city surrounded by farm land and there's never been an attempt to get people from the city to work on a farm, none.

Why pay an American a wage for a job that a Central American will do twice as good, for half as much?

I do. All animal derivates i eat are eggs, 3-6 monthly. Never bought One in shops. Except for good eggs, i went fully vegan 10 years ago. I'm fine, fit, and my work is Pretty phisical. I eat tons of stuff with less of 100 euros/ month

its the same in europe though. Ukranians and East Europeans work the fields over there. You gotta grow up in a rural area to have the muscle stamina to work all day in a field.

>Today, New Zealand’s farmers are some of the world’s most productive and innovative.

>Removing government assistance completely, New Zealand officials say, freed farmers to produce what people really want, and to do so in an efficient way that could turn a profit.

>Since the reforms, New Zealand farmers have cut costs, diversified their land use, and developed new products, Clark says.

>Additionally, productivity in agriculture has grown faster than the New Zealand economy as a whole.
dailysignal.com/2016/09/22/what-happened-when-new-zealand-got-rid-of-government-subsidies-for-farmers/

>the nank
Instantly thought of this.
youtube.com/watch?v=PTUY16CkS-k

>(((diversified)))

it's because the working conditions are inhumane....14-16 hours a day for $10/hr under the table....when I was a kid, farmers would pay pickers by the bushel and didn't care how long you picked...the work was available for 14-16 hours a day, but most of us teens would pick for a few hours after school or a couple of hours before school....that's not an option, now, because there are so many illegals willing to work like slaves for the entire day that the farmers don't need legal workers and the hassles they bring

>Every farmer is essentailly a government employee.
Made me think of serf-based labour. Even privately run farms around here, employed second-class citizen farmhands (which weren't allowed to marry and such, up to after the first ww in some regions.) Either way, for reasons of national security, any wise government would put a close check on the food providers / their industry. With serfs being replaced by machinery, regulations were made to rebind / enslave the farmers anew.

>Scenario 3: Farmer gets subsized by the government, grows whatever the fuck he wants because and doesn't care if he sells or not because daddy fed will always be there for him.
It doesn't work that way. See: Subsidies come with a shit ton of strings attached, you can't just go nuts.

>It doesn't work that way.
A-ha-ha. Get on our level. It works quite fine that way in pooland. Get yourself some clay, declare it farmland, sow birdfeed or some shit in spring, and live off of the EU subsidies. Legitly works that way.

>That's the point he's making - without subsidies, the food would be way more expensive. Food subsidies are one of the few government programs I agree with - they keep food affordable and allow the US to be a net food exporter.
Partly true. If we had unbridled capitalism in agriculture it easily leads to cycles of boom and bust and you're right, there's always the possibility of someone "cornering the market" and driving prices way up.
Subsidies keep food affordable because they inject stability into markets. They are abused to be sure, but I have to agree, they're not all bad. I'd sure like to see more discussion about grazing subsidies I brought up here: It's a huge problem on public lands in the west. Only about 3% of American beef and mutton is grown on public lands, but they adversely impact very nearly all of it. Erosion, invasive weeds causing catastrophic wildfires every year, desertification, displacement or extirpation of native plants, damage to cultural resources, destruction of the hydrology of entire landscapes from water developements and diversions are but a few of the problems caused by cheap (subsidized) grazing.

Most people aren't aware it's illegal to grow your own wheat to make flour......

government subsidizes food to keep it cheap and high calorie for the masses.

they're trying to kill off the fat fucks by making them eat themselves to death.

>It's too dangerous for national security to let them be exposed to market fluctuations
This, sadly.

Because if you enter the farming game you are competing against any farmer with more land than you. So basically the government subsidizes them to not be so dependent on one farm. If you just want to feed your family with a farm you won't need subsidies.