Why is his sacrifice considered heroic?. Is it really hard to suffer for ~48 hours when you know with 100% certainty that an eternity of bliss awaits you afterwards? What's the point of dying for our sins if he didn't really stay dead.
The real sacrifice that would be worth eternal and absolute respect would be if he agreed to suffer for eternity in hell in our place to save us.
inb4 how dare you even ask that, burn in hell!
I walked the path of traitors
Bearing the weight of my symbol
Standing in the Shadow of Cross
Ouestening my Faith
Wearing the Crown of Thorns
Watching the Metal eating flesh
My body wept the Tears of Blood
My greatest Sacrifice is pain
I see the Bloodred sunset
Dying amongst thieves in Golgotha
Last breath escaping from my Husk
Striken down by the Hammer of Satan
>Prayed 3 times to stop it from happening
>Did it anyway even though God didn't answer his prayers
Go back and read again, user. That was what the big deal was about. He actually didn't know for absolute certain.
Why are you asking Sup Forums questions that you should be asking your pastor?
Has Marutei Tsurunen been mentioned already?
>Tsurunen was representing the democrats in the upper house of the Japanese parliament during they years 2002-2013 as its first Western-born member.
A fucking major achievement considering how doubtful the Japanese are against foreigners. Of course Finland is an exception of some sort, the older folk knows and appreciates Mannerheim and Finns.
Apparently a very conservative politician and that's exactly what japskies like
Luke 23:43
And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise"
So it was a bluff or what? He wasn't really sure?
1)We don't have "pastors" in Orthodox Church.
2)I am an agnostic
3)Sup Forums has the biggest concentration of conservative Christians on this site.
it is hard to suffer on a cross for 48 hours regardless of anything. also, he was the only perfect person, which means that death had no hold on him. he showed us how to live, and his resurrection was proof. if you follow his teaching you are truly a wise man. believe in God and that God raised Jesus from the dead and you will be saved.
Because He is God, and to show he has power and dominion over death, so those that follow Him will not die, but have everlasting life. His body still has scars as a reminder.
Don't forget that he also went to hell for 3 days. I.e. his suffering was not only on the cross. He was abandoned by god because that is the most painful existence to endure. He had to abandon all his friends and loved ones for a certain time as well knowing all about the immediate pain and suffering his sacrifice would cause those around him. He payed the ultimate price for the ultime prize. He saved all of us who believe.
The comma is in the wrong place. Also don't quote that heretic Bible-version.
Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
Is this not a demonstration of the faith of Christ?
Christianity makes no sense. According to Christians babies that die at birth automatically go to heaven because they didn't sin, and there is no re-birth. So the prudent thing for a good Christian to do would be to murder every single baby at birth because that guarantees them eternity in heaven. Compared to living in a sin filled kiked world where you are guaranteed going to hell.
Oh and crusifixtion by nails is no small thing. It's torture until you die. The weight of your own body knawing at your bones in your hands and feet. He didnt have to stay in hell btw. Thats probably why he didn't. Our sins are forgiven. God doesn't send us to hell. People go there willingly.
> Physical suffering
kek
...
Hell is eternity away from Him. So, ya, you don't make any sense.
Good try though.
System of control made by the Jew.
And fuck him, he loved taco bell, and hated 1000$ sushi.
Who gives a shit? Does your version change the meaning (he KNEW he would be in paradise)? No.
Oh wow! The whole 3 days! While the 99.9% of humanity is damned to suffer there for ETERNITY?
The worst aspect is that the pull on your arms keeps you in a constant pressure position which is extremely painful, your shoulder blades push into your lungs and diaphragm which causes you to feel like you're suffocating but you remain very much alive for days like this.
I've never got an answer from Christians on this one...
The cross itself wasn't that bad. The suffering God's punishment intended for the redeemed is what the sacrifice was about. Everyone always leaves out God's justice and focus on the love part. Mankind was doomed to eternal torment and Christ took that on.
why are you asking supernatural shit on board about politics? use /x/ dumbfuck, sage
OK, so you're a heathen. You're going to burn in Hell no matter what you do, so honestly what does it matter whether you understand the sacrifice that Jesus made?
That feel when if OP had posted this question on his public social network profile in Russia, he would go to jail
Jesus was crucified not beucase he claimed to be god, messiah, prophet, divine but because he claimed to be the king of jews.
i.e. treason against the state.
That doesn't make sense. You can't be a Christian and knowingly kill infants.
Christ said whatever you do to these little ones you also do to Me.
If you don't understand I don't try to minimise the extend of this physical suffering. There is no doubt it's a horrible way to die and is to be feared. But that's human logic, the logic of a mortal (presumably) creature, fearing death, not really knowing what awaits him afterwards.
Why would temporary physical suffering matter nearly as much to an eternal creature who knows that any damage (including mental/emotional damage) would be undone soon anyway?
Can't burn in hell if you don't believe it otherwise you're condemned to negative afterlives of all other religions you don't believe in.
Yea, but it would just be like taking one for the team? A real sacrifice unlike Jesus' sacrifice
Well, if you make a really convincing argument, maybe I would convert and be saved? Give it a try mate, maybe the fate of my eternal soul is in your hands right now?!
How did he "took it on" if he himself wasn't subjected to eternal torment?
It's pretty easy to avoid hell bro.
OP your are correct. I grew up Christian and was really into it but felt weird about the whole sacrifice of Jesus and I always felt unable to stop sinning. I read the Old Testament and realized that there are no prophesies about Jesus coming. There will be a Messiah, still yet to come, but he will be an ordinary human being who is god-like in the sense of being an extremely righteous person.
I have since renounced Jesus, he contradicted the Old Testament at almost every turn. I don't consider myself a Jew either for the fact that 99% of Jews believe in the Talmud and Mishnah more than the Old Testament.
I just believe in the God of the Old Testament (Tanakh - Hebrew Bible). I cant find anyone to fellowship with who just believe in that being the word of God.
Your question sounds like one a person who has lead an easy life would ask. If you knew hardship then you would understand doubt and pain and how hard it is, even when you have a reward dangling in front of you, to do the right thing, let alone put your life on the line. I've pussied out from doing the right thing when it's not even life threatening. Like when I go to burger king with a coupon (poorfag here) and walk out with an extra sandwich, see a homeless guy and have to justify making up excuses that he does't deserve charity. That's fucked up and I know it it, but I fail to do the right thing despite the promises of eternal reward even though it literally just costs me a few bucks. I know that's not just me either. Now substitute giving someone my extra, free Whopper, with letting a government lie about me and put me to death in a slow tortuous manner for sinful people who hate my dad, refuse to live by his rules, but still feel entitled to all his blessings. Add to this that Jesus is God and doesn't need mankind for anything but mutual love, and it makes the sacrifice all the more salient. If I were him I'd just stay home and say fuck ungrateful, immature people like OP. When you geow up and love someone and are loved by someones, and needed or relied on, ask your past self why you ever thought this was a good question.
>catholic calling anyone else a heathen
your fire is going to be just as hot and bright as the fire that will be appointed to convinced zionists
>"And while you're at it, fuck J.C.! He got off easy. A day on the cross, a weekend in hell, and all the hallelujahs of the legioned angels for eternity. Try seven years in fuckin' Otisville, J.!"
Well if you knowing kill infants then you can't be a Christian since you are not following Christ,regardless of the "good" it will do.
I'm not sure how you can trivialize Christ sacrifice since Him being God gave the most valuable thing He is able to give which is Himself out of love for those that believe in Him.
If you still disagree, then what is the most valuable thing a God could give?
That sounds interesting. Kinda sounds like the Old Testament tries to push the ordinary man to be ubermenschen. Then some dead kike on a stick comes along and just tries to cuck you into being a good goy so you get into (((heaven)))
>sending kill 1000 babies sending them into eternal heaven
>you go to hell
How is that not a holy sacrifice? (((Christ))) would be proud
>in your hands
No m8, that's always in your own hands and on your own head
>Is it really hard to suffer for ~48 hours when you know with 100% certainty that an eternity of bliss awaits you afterwards?
Considering how much bitching I hear from atheists about "babies with bone cancer, and "muh suffering", clearly the promise of eternal bliss does not outweigh short term suffering.
So yeah clearly it's hard to suffer for 48 hours even with the promise of heaven.
The fuck are you even trying to say...
>kill 1000 babies sending them into eternal heaven
>you go to hell
How is that not a holy sacrifice? (((Christ))) would be proud
one typo bro
>even when you have a reward dangling in front of you
>I fail to do the right thing despite the promises of eternal reward even though it literally just costs me a few bucks
I am sorry, how a single act of donating (or not) your food to a needy person is supposed to determine your eternal fate? If you are a catholic or orthodox you will have a lot of opportunities to confess this petty sin afterwards.
If you are a protestant, as far as I know, these things don't matter anyway, because you achieve salvation by faith alone, don't you?
G*d is dead retards. Stop larping.
So... planning on torturing anyone who wants to save people from merchants, huh?
forgot trip.
Have you just invalidated all the efforts of Christian missionaries throughout history?
I'm not sure if all babies are guranteed a place in heaven. You'd have to find it in scripture. I think most Christian would assume children go to heaven because of lack of knowing good and evil and more importantly Christ sacrifice.
Really? All you have to do is believe some mad miracle story based on the testimony of a few people thousands of years ago
Try believing “1+1=3” is true. Is that easy? Belief is not a matter of choice
Found the godless cuck
>"The real sacrifice that would be worth eternal and absolute respect would be if he agreed to suffer for eternity in hell in our place to save us."
Ivan, Christ couldn't have spent eternity in hell because the very nature of hell is a reminder of what the wrong path leads us to. God created man and understands how man behaves.
When you remove hell out of the realm of possibilities to end up entirely, man kind would simply drift away into utter degradation.
Trust in God and know he did the most he could for his children without leaving them vulnerable and susceptible to being led astray off the blessed path.
Yeah but your argument was also wack so it didn't help exactly. You can't just kill babies and assume you're doing gods work. Think of the people you also send to hell by doing this. That's not god. You are not god, you don't get to decide who goes where. You get to decide where you go.
Matthew 7:13
>Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Nah but believing in the truth is pretty easy once the lies fade away. And in the end there won't be lies. For some it will take longer sure. But god doesn't send people to hell.
Because God did it to Himself
Beautiful.
Well I’m convinced. Nice argument
All I'm doing is pointing out a glitch in the Christian matrix.. By no means am I advocating for its use.
You should give it a try yourself
The problem is you're thinking like a Pharisee. You can't loophole God. It's not a D&D rule book. It's a testimony of the spirit. God loves us like a father. What would you do if you were God? Send babies to hell?
Also, hell is a metaphor that's gotten way out of hand. You're either continually moving closer to God or continuously away from him.
If you live like an animal you die like an animal. If you live like a spirit son you are born into the kingdom of heaven. Love your father and your brothers.
Is Marutei Tsurunen mentioned?
> Tsurunen served as a representative of the Democrats in the House of Lords of Japan in 2002-2013 as her first Western-born member.
It's a hell of a hell of a thing when you think about how dubious Japanese are foreigners. Sure Finland is a kind of exception, the older population knows and values Mannerheim and the Finns.
>sacrifice
He was crucified by my ancestors.
Yeah I never said that many didn't go there dude. No one who believes go there. Like the other user said, belief is not a matter of choice. But your own wants is a good place to start. Studying epistemology and theology even better.
why should I accept the death of an innocent man so long as it gets me off the hook?
There's a whole lot of doctrine that obfuscates this point.
Jesus was unjustly killed
Yes leaf exactly. Ever since I stopped believing in Jesus I can actually stop sinning. I had trouble before to stop cursing, for example. It would just keep happening no matter how much I tried.
My belief in knowing I was already "saved" sabotaged my efforts to effectively stop sinning.
When I read the Old Testament and studied it I realize it taught that you have to save yourself. Jesus doesn't take your failures, its on you. You have to be a good person. I realized I have to take accountability for all I do, I was able to stop cussing and almost immediately. This was several years ago. I don't cuss at all now. It's all willpower (which christianity teaches against because JESUS SAVED YOU ALREADY).
I've eliminated almost all sin from my life. Hope someone else is willing to take my word for this and read the Old Testament and see Jesus is not prophesied, but a human messiah who (like all believers in God) became righteous by their own efforts or willpower in other words.
>leaf is a fucking idiot
Who would've thought
originally he wasn't resurrected, he just died.
No, the attribute of being charitable is what makes the difference. Me not giving to someone in need when its a small sacrifice to me, implies that I am not charitable, especially if it's a recurring thing. The biblical promises are to charitable people, givers, sacrifice makers. But you're focusing on the the least relevant part of my post because I only gave that anecdote to illustrate how things less difficult than getting killed are hard even with divine promises of reward
.Atheist killed deep thought and philosophy. This is why atheism is the fastest shrinking religion.
>When you remove hell out of the realm of possibilities to end up entirely, man kind would simply drift away into utter degradation.
What's wrong with degradation if it can't end in eternal damnation?
I really want to hear a convincing argument that would make me change my view. I am not an atheist, spiritual matters are important to me, I believe in "something" beyond this world, but don't know what it is and how much truth (if any) our earthen religions tryly hold.
It's not a glitch. What you posted was a poorly thought out attempt at rationalizing something bigger than all of us. It just doesn't work like that.
A FUCKING BOOK DOES NOT PROVE SHIT RETARD
Rabi Yeshuah was killed by Europeans.
>implies that I am not charitable
Don't be so hard on yourself. Your feel guilty about it, your guilt alone proves you ARE charitable, but at that particular moment your will was weak. Trust me, a truly bad person would not even thing about sharing his food with the homeless guy.
I'm gonna give it a read. You convinced me.
Yeah, let's not wonder why wouldn't anyone just say "fuck it" and start unnailing the dude despite whatever happens.
Let's all make a religion and ponder about all kinds of shit and wait for him to die and resurrect n'shieet, for our sins.
Ever asked yourself what you would do if you'd stand right next to him and watch him die? You'd still rather just let him fucking rot on a stick for you. It's all about YOU, innit?
Every single TRUE BUHLIEVER is a rotten piece of shit and fully deserve what's coming to them.
No one ever said it did. We all said it was about faith, always. If there was proof (there is proof for those who search for it, but not in the way you might think.) Why would you even need faith if there was proof? Wouldn't it just be conformity? It would.
But I dare you to read the good book with an open mind and repent while doing so. You might prove something to yourself who knows. What we can know is those who won't try to know will never know.
It is a glitch tho. Not taking anything away from Christianity, old testament sounds dope, but your reward based heaven/hell can be exploited like a glitch.
t bh I think he would've made everyone shit their pants if he went down the cross and had roman soldiers devoured by some six headed dog or something but that's just me
While it is good to give, it does not guarantee you go into heaven no matter how much good you do or how mych it hurts you.
A person is only saved by faith in Christ not by works.
God bless!
Elaborate and I'll try to argue against it then.
>The real sacrifice that would be worth eternal and absolute respect would be if he agreed to suffer for eternity in hell in our place to save us.
This is a good point
>die
>the whole thing is literally a suicide
>commit sin
>satan take me
>you can't commit sin because reasons
>ressurect self because omnipotent and have to avoid becoming a sinner
>realise you actually fucked up by giving yourself a physical form and have to keep husk alive now
Its really interesting when you think about it.
>Can't burn in hell if you don't believe it
This is like saying you can't go to jail if you don't know the law.
It's your soul retard, if you're not interested in saving it I can't help you.
>Catholic
Don't make me vomit
because its a lie to pacify you
when a group of people torture you
kill them
I was about to go to the liquor store and KFC... I'll be back in like 30 mins if you wanna hear it
And yes, let's talk about the important part of your post.
>how things less difficult than getting killed are hard even with divine promises of reward
The difference is:
1) For you the divine promises are only that - promises. You can't be 100% sure, and I think you have your doubts. Jesus (supposedly?) knew with certainty.
2) You didn't expect to die soon, did you? The afterlife for you was something from the far future, it can be hard to relate to that. If you knew you are gonna die very soon, it would probably be much easier for you to delay gratification.
A Christian who believes in heaven and hell and christ as his savior would not just indiscriminately murder babies because that sends them to heaven.
No amount of good we do is enough to get into heaven, the only thing that justifies us is our faith.
make sense yet?
>tfw you can pillage and plunder and steal and rape little children and murder whoever gets in your way
>will still go to heaven as long as you believe in Christ
I DON'T KNOW WHAT PROTESTANTS ARE ON BUT SIGN ME UP FAMILIA
If God showed us empirical proof of His existence for all people to see and know, there would be no such thing as free will. Our actions would be a direct function of our being exposed to said proof rather than a choice you have to make.
manipulative word games are torture
when a group tortures you
kill them
somebody who believes in Christ as their savior would not rape pillage and steal, but even if they did do that, hypothetically, they would be saved
>the whole thing is literally a suicide
It is not. It's martyrdom, a completely different thing. But my question is, a simple human martyr deserves respect, but we can surely demand more from a son of god?
I see it as a moot point. People in this thread assume a lot. That's always been a hubris that has palgued mankind and that itself is ok I guess. But to assume mankinds logic and rational is equally to god himself defies our petty definitions of a god from the get go. We are blind children to him. It's the same as arguments I hear from friends of mine "I mean if heaven is supposed to be better than earth than it has to be a place where you can do whatever you want all the time without consequence and you can just sin all you want." Well no. Because you wrongly assume you know more about what you want than god. God knows what you want bro.
Not sure where you are getting Christianty as rewards based system. The only way into heaven is to believe in Christ, which will turn in the person living a life following Christ's example.
Any rewards in heaven is just an extra bonus and maybe meaningless.
>father son and holy spirit is one
its a suicide no matter how you going to spin it
creating a mortal husk of yourself is suicide
4chin's ultimate truths 101. Please do tell more about gods and how they work, why don't you?
Nice I hit the liqour store earlier today. If the thread is still here sure.
He did not do it for himself.
He did it for us.