On the one hand, it seems that the Bishop of Rome enjoys at least Patriarchical status by virtue of the primacy of Peter among the apostles.
On the other hand, Orthodoxy seems to have a more coherent Triadology and Ecclesiology, and it has a more psychologically healthy spiritual theology (i.e., God is not presented as an injured party seeking satisfaction/absence of legalism).
Other urls found in this thread:
youtube.com
mostholyfamilymonastery.com
youtube.com
biblicalcatholic.com
catholicbridge.com
youtube.com
interfax-religion.com
baltimoresun.com
scooch.org
web.archive.org
mayanorthodoxy.com
twitter.com
And yet many Catholics maintain that Orthodoxy is not truly universal due to it being sometimes difficult to access by laymen not educated in the languages of the autonomous national churches.
Both burn in hell so who cares
Why is orthodoxy not spreading tho?
Orthodoxy is making in-roads. Heaps of Traditionalist Catholics have realised that all these Sedevacantist and Cardinal Siri conspiracy theories are kind of retarded and they just need to study the historical development of papal authority outside of a Catholic propaganda filter to work out what's going on.
I'm serious if its that good then why are they not going on missions to spread them
There are Orthodox missions all over the planet. Unfortunately, Orthodoxy does not have government recognition in Communist China. It will be interesting to see how the Orthodox Church in China grows once it is made legal.
Catholicism has a far more coherent structure and is vastly less arbitrary and confused.
mostholyfamilymonastery.com
>a more psychologically healthy spiritual theology
Sounds like something that could just as easily justify Islam.
Overall one of the big issues is that Orthodoxy benefits a lot from Orientalism like Asian faiths in the west do, namely its considered hyper pure because people simply aren't familiar with it or its history. (+ a lot of ex protestants who are carrying over their hatred of Catholocism)
Hence why you get people genuinely believing they have never changed any teachings or that they dont have embarrassing ones like heavenly toll booths being manned by devils that test people on the way to heaven or that evolution isnt real. Even worse that the Orthodox Church has no problems now or historically with corruption.
>references the nutter Sedevacantist Daimond Brothers' outfit to explain the superior 'coherence' of Catholicism.
I have been following these Catholic versus Orthodox threads on Sup Forums and a very clear picture is emerging that Papal Supremacy is a total flop.
The correct answer was Mormon.
So Orthodoxy is just more of Jewish mysticism?
I've read the biggest reason why
This even exist is because it allowed russians to still drink alcohol
>Implying Catholics aren't the biggest drunkards on the planet
>Catholicism independent entity separate from temporal powers.
>Orthodox church subservient to deviant and corrupt emperors and statesmen.
>very clear picture is emerging that Papal Supremacy is a total flop.
Does Orthodox allow remarriage 1, 2 or 3 times or not at all? Depends on bishop
What if any contraception is allowed it depends on your jurisdiction
Which councils are valid or not again depends,
Are Aerial toll houses real or not it depends
Is phyletism acceptable again it depends.
That is what Im getting at when I talk about coherence.
I take it you just plan on ignoring the other parts of my post.
>Catholicism
>Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son and not the Father
>any sort of geometric beauty
The Catholic Church does not have greater coherence and uniformity on these controversial topics. The RCC takes a hardline position on paper but anything goes in terms of what Catholic clergy allow in practice.
>So Orthodoxy is just more of Jewish mysticism?
No, only that Westerners tend to idealise it like they do with eastern religions and hold them to a lesser standard.
>This even exist is because it allowed russians to still drink alcohol
A lot of state religions have embarrassing or wrong reasons for conversion. Whether it be the Romans pagans who were threatened with feath by the the unified church or Princes in Europe who converted to Protestantism to steal money from Catholics.
Visited an orthodox church yesterday and spoke to the priest, he was very stoic and had an awesome presence about him, great eye contact and manners. Exactly what I expected a spiritual guide to be like.
My friend asked him some superstitious questions but the priest managed to reframe them and ask better questions and give good answers.
I was born into orthodoxy but lost my way, feels great reconnecting again.
Whats shocking is that the church is in a 3rd world asian country and it's beautiful and brand new.
youtube.com
>
That's quickly changing since English is becoming a global language.
>Hence why you get people genuinely believing they have never changed any teachings or that they dont have embarrassing ones like heavenly toll booths being manned by devils that test people on the way to heaven or that evolution isnt real. Even worse that the Orthodox Church has no problems now or historically with corruption.
We've changed far less than Catholicism and protestant churches have, of course some change is inevitable but orthodoxy is much more "stuck in the dark ages" than any other branch of christianity, and that's a good thing.
Toll house booth is not a dogma or taken seriously, its' quite fringe and most people think of it as unnecessary and unscriptural like the catholic purgatory.
>No, only that Westerners tend to idealise it like they do with eastern religions and hold them to a lesser standard.
Exactly.
If you want a sense of psychological security in authority and a sense of cultural pride in looking at pretty buildings and renaissance paintings, go become a Catholic.
If you are interested in joining the church of Christ's 12 apostles, become Orthodox.
What a great post! Thanks a lot, mate.
>12 apostles
biblicalcatholic.com
St. Peter was the one who Christ left to build his Church.
>Pretty renaissance paintings etc
Don't be a hypocrite, those were done for the glory of Christ, his apostles, and his Church, as were icons that you post there.
>My friend asked him some superstitious questions but the priest managed to reframe them and ask better questions
and give good answers.
And what would that be that's so life changing?
>Papal Supremacy is a total flop.
The authority of the Pope claims it from the Bible. Apostle Peter was the First Pope and check out what Jesus told him.
>The Catholic Church does not have greater coherence and uniformity on these controversial topic. The RCC takes a hardline position on paper.
You understand that merely having a single position on paper automatically makes it more coherant than the Orthodox Church right?
In Catholicism you can literally know what the correct position is and when your priest is acting irresponsibly in Orthodoxy there is no right answer only the answer that is true for your area (which in the west is still based on ethnicity) hence if something is not allowed with the Russians you can just go to the Greeks and what was wrong there will suddenly become the unchanging and eternal truth.
>but anything goes in terms of what Catholic clergy allow in practice.
Sounds a bit like hyperbole senpai.
Okay, but does papal infallibility logically follow from Jesus' words? It's not so clear, and there's little if any evidence of such a doctrine in the Early Church period.
So, what about Mormonism? Its got an interesting an dwholesome subculture you could say. Thinking about going LDS for wholesome conservative living.
the bishop of rome is supposed to work together with the other bishops, via ecumenical councils and dialogue and so forth, they are supposed to act "as one"; a bishop isn't supposed to be unilateral and proclaim himself infallible...I'm sorry to say but it isn't suprising that the protestant reformation happened given the innovations of the papal church.
Not from the Apostles, not legit.
Political/social considerations should be the last thing on your mind when choosing a church, as all the degenerate ones are auto excluded anyway.
The only question relevant is "which is the church handed down to the Apostles?"
>Orthodox Christianity is unchanged!
Biggest meme, the fact that they allow remarriage is disgusting and adulterous in nature.
catholicbridge.com
mormonism is a satanic perversion larping as christianity, you would be better off becoming a pure freemason, which is what mormonism tries to emulate anyway.
>Thinking about going LDS for wholesome conservative living.
religion is more than just healthy living. it's about how you relate to God and the destiny of your soul. if you want healthy living you can just adopt some greek philosophy, steer clear of the mormon cult.
All I know is that Orthodox is the true Church and all are welcome.
That's not even the right picture of Jesus.
>non-white
>christian
fits the bill!
...
what about secular Christians?
>We've changed far less than Catholicism and protestant churches have, of course some change is inevitable.
Which its why its hypocrtical at best and deceptive at worst when people act as though it is the unchanged church and that any change = corruption
>Toll house booth is not a dogma or taken seriously, its' quite fringe and most people think of it as unnecessary and unscriptural like the catholic purgatory.
In your jurisdiction in others denouncing the toll houses can have more serious consequences. Just like with marriage.
Take a look at the post above yours not that Im saying that fellow is an orientalist but you see the parallels very clearly here and interestingly from the opposite perspective.
"Visited an orthodox church yesterday and spoke to the priest, he was very stoic and had an awesome presence about him, great eye contact and manners. Exactly what I expected a spiritual guide to be like. "
Replace Orthodox Church and priest with monastery and Buddhist monk
Good video about Mary in Orthodoxy.
youtube.com
There shouldn't be any such thing in the first place.
People not taking the faith seriously is exactly how we got into this position.
Nobody who treats the Church as a social club should be allowed in the front gates.
>Secular
>Christians
Pick one.
Oh of course I see it, I see it elsewhere as well, ergo those "converting" to Orthodoxy as it's still "European #tradlife #trad" but also "eastern" in nature. They also jab at the corruption in the RCC (which I don't deny, especially following the French Revolution particularly pushing freemasonry and secularism, and with 2nd Vatican Council as well ridding the universal tongue of the church), but don't look within their own churches as well (Kirill is ex-KGB who made billions due to importation of booze and cigs to Russia, freemasons in Churches, communism infiltration, etc).
Hey Im not here to argue semantics,
Someone explain to me where God's justice was for Uriah, a man who God to be sent to the front lines by "king david" so david could rape his wife....
Everything I read online is talking about it from David's perspective and it hurts me because its the little guy getting shit on and God is like "bad David but thats ok Ill forgive you" Except Uriah is still dead and his wife is with Davids kid now...
Where is the justice where is the rationale.
>People not taking the faith seriously is exactly how we got into this position.
Its the curse that has befallen every religion that becomes a state church.
>Nobody who treats the Church as a social club should be allowed in the front gates.
Denied communion perhaps but not excluded they are more likley to come to God there an with pure atheists.
Orthodoxy is fastly growing in Eastern Africa, and making great strides in Kenya, Rwanda, Burundi, and Madagascar. They manage to relate to the natives in a better way than the Catholics and Protestants (who mean well), through explaining culture does not have to be abandoned to accept God.
In Kenya, they estimate over one million Orthodox (Kenya has 48mil).
Natives themselves have trained to be priests and are now spreading it themselves.
>papal infallibility
1. Papal infability only applies when the Pope speaks ex catedra. In practise it would mean that the Pope would First have to call a ceremonial meetings of bishops to declare some teaching as valid.
And even if some dogma is invocated it would only be about teological issues, and not about say politics.
2. The papal infability was invoced only one time in the whole history of the Church. It was in the 2nd century.when declaring a dogma about Virgin Marry being resurected to heaven. Mind you this dogma adheres the Orthodox church as well.
>there's little if any evidence of such a doctrine in the Early Church period
even kikepedia is mentioning sources from the early church
Can't any of you give me an answer to a real spiritual issue?
I'd appreciate your input
So we will have more of a African ortho lol
At least its not Islam
Hopefully they can out spread them
>original new testament written in greek
>translated to latin from greek
>romans add a term 500 years later that undermines the original writing
>despite the apostles being equal under the eyes of God, because the christians themselves saw st peter as the leader of the apostles, and because st peter built the roman church, cathocucks decide that they should lead all the churches too
>imagine following these heretics
Chalcedonian would be best, followed by an orthodoxy that actually has patriarchs. We haven’t had that for a long ass time, so we are left with Catholicism
it's not vs
it's co-op against satan
>So we will have more of a African ortho lol
Everyone needs Jesus, even Africans and Chinese, bless them for seeking the truth.
>At least its not Islam
Of course. Islam is idolatry.
>At least its not Islam
Yeah it's much better than Islam and Animism.
Some chief in Madagascar told some American Baptists to leave for trying to persuade them away from Orthodoxy.
They're still under the authority of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, but who knows, they're actually sorting themselves out well, in a few decades they could possibly become autocephalous.
I mean population wise its going to be dominated by niggs compared to Slavs
Which mean more immigration
You'll be sorry. The women are really hot and feminine but the religion is as stupid as it gets. SouthPark nails it, google puts it firmly six foot under. Plus, Mormon men are the biggest cucks around.
Im really asking
Drop the memes. Do any of you alleged christians have an answer.
>making great strides in Kenya, Rwanda, Burundi, and Madagascar
Got any statistics for these in Rwanda it looks like they have just got a single church in 2014 which hardly seems like a great stride. As for the others bar Kenya (which seems closer to 600K rather than a million)
>So we will have more of a African ortho lol
Or maybe because there are over 100 million Ethiopians there who have 4 children each and steadily declining infant mortality rate.
>justice for a kike
Even Mayans in Guatemala are converting to Orthodoxy en masse. The government and the churches estimate approx. 1.3mil Orthodox in Guatemala now (Oriental and Eastern)
Orthodox wants an Artificial Empire like the Byzantine Empire and Catholics just want an organic Integralism society.
So you are ok with the elites taking your wife, killing you and knocking her up?
That's God's plan or am I misreading? Thats why Im asking
hey, newfag, this is Sup Forums: the official Sup Forums shitposting board. if you want an actual intellectual discussion, go to /his/
>e. The government and the churches estimate approx. 1.3mil Orthodox in Guatemala now (Oriental and Eastern)
Source on that? even the most generous statistics ive seen put that at roughly half of that.
justice doesn't begin and end in this life alone, it has a dimension that spans into eternity, so it's basically inscrutable for us, but when you realize God is good then it follows that his justice is good. So why worry?
What "justice" did Job have in his life? He lost everything through no fault of his own, which seems unjust if we assume death is the end and only this life matters.
But that is not what our Lord taught us, death is certainly not the end, so the scales of justice can't be measured just by analyzing events in this world.
Where are you getting that it was God's plan? It explicitly says "But the thing David had done displeased the Lord."
Moreover, David repented.
Here's one for Kenya, taken in 2010, which estimated it at approx 1mil.
interfax-religion.com
As for Rwanda, I've had a look on the Patriarchate's site, and can't dig up any solid numbers, apart from the initial conversion of roughly 2000 upon the founding of the first church in 2014. Apologies.
OH OK David repented so its all good man. No worries. Oh wait dude is still fucking dead with no justice or point to his existence other than to make David repent for being a piece of fucking shit. Got it.
Job had things restored to him twice over. Uriah got fucking murdered in battle, that is what the difference is. I guess Im smarter than you.
Jordan Petersons favorite Christianity is Orthodox
Yeah makes sense since he's a pseud
Oriental and Eastern Church =/= Orthodox Church
The two split earlier than the Great Schism.
>OH OK David repented so its all good man.
Well, yeah, that's the Gospel in a nutshell.
>Oh wait dude is still fucking dead with no justice
Christ is the justice, that's the whole point. Why would God hold David accountable for his sins but not you?
>inb4 "my sins aren't as bad as David's"
Neither are your virtues.
Orthodox niggers have even funnier hats than the pope and also attract Jewish Schlomo's like Brother Nathanael and grow jew beards.
Thou art Peter. End of story.
The Orthodox Church left for political reasons (desire to be an independent hierarchy and butthurt that the Byzantine Emperor was no longer the only emperor in the world), briefly rejoined for political reasons (the encroachment of the Turk led to the Orthodox submitting to Rome and Catholic doctrines at the Council of Florence), before leaving again for political reasons (bishops wanting independence; the Russians were so butthurt that they even declared independence from the Patriarch in Constantinople after this), and it is still in schism for political reasons to this day.
>Job had things restored to him twice over. Uriah got fucking murdered in battle, that is what the difference is. I guess Im smarter than you.
Maybe you are smarter than me but I think my point still stands that God's justice is not limited to the events in this dimension alone, but spans into the afterlife, eternity. So there is no need to look for "equilibrium" here on earth, and just because someone seems to get 'away with murder' now doesn't mean they actually do.
Well thats about half a 400K more than the Pew Study came with for what its worth.
>As for Rwanda, I've had a look on the Patriarchate's site, and can't dig up any solid numbers, apart from the initial conversion of roughly 2000 upon the founding of the first church in 2014. Apologies.
Id be more careful about throwing such triumphant terms around in the future. Whilst there are small success stories here and there by and large its still a long an drawn out affair with not much effort being made (just think of the pennies missionaries get compared to the 200 million Euro Church being built in Romania - as if that is what is needed) by Apostolics.
For groups that arent growing demographically its the protestants and non trinitarians who are growing the fastest and its not something that people are taking seriously.
I think it's more likely that Guatemalans are simply bad at estimation
Still missing the point the post.
look dude, Try to put yourself in Uriah's shoes, you're a sinner like everyone else but just trying to get a long. Then King David enters your life and steals your wife, knocks her up and gets you killed.
>Well, yeah, that's the Gospel in a nutshell.
No it isn't. and if it is I want a fucking refund.
punishing the little guy to forgive the main character is fucking bullshit.
Forgot to add theres also the nasty issue of Africans syncretising animism into Christianity
Beards are manly though.
Nods
There are many catholics who are converting to orthodoxy en-mass and you rarely see the opposite.
That's all I gotta say about the "controversy"
I'm not going to just let bad things happen to me because "gods got this bro" you need to be a man HERE and NOW because why were you put here otherwise?
>you rarely see the opposite.
not where I live, here people convert one way or the other, depending on the faith of their significant other before marriage
we also do all holidays twice, for catholics and orthobros
t. eastern Poland
>
>
>justice doesn't begin and end in this life alone, it has a dimension that spans into eternity, so it's basically inscrutable for us, but when you realize God is good then it follows that his justice is good. So why worry?
>What "justice" did Job have in his life? He lost everything through no fault of his own, which seems unjust if we assume death is the end and only this life matters.
>But that is not what our Lord taught us, death is certainly not the end, so the scales of justice can't be measured just by analyzing events in this world.
Fuckin ay. Superb
>depending on the faith of their significant other before marriage
Exactly my point. At least in the west, it's catholics converting to orthodoxy for pure theological reasons. The most religious catholics will end up orthodox
>There are many catholics who are converting to orthodoxy en-mass and you rarely see the opposite.
Not really in Guatemala for instance the two big mass conversions came after a Charismatic Catholic leader who had 100-200K of followers announced he was going to swap over when the Catholic Church got in the way of his politics and theology.
Its more of local priest converts and parishioners follow.
Can someone give a quick rundown on differences in Catholic and Orthodox DOCTRINES, not different names of churches and priests but religious dogmas
beardless catholic clergy on suicide watch.
>Still missing the point the post.
I get your point, it's just a silly one because it elevates human conceptions of justice above God's. The answer to your question is right there in Job. Even if God were somehow punishing Uriah (He isn't), who are you to demand justification from Him?
>punishing the little guy
Who's punishing Uriah?
>Then King David enters your life and steals your wife, knocks her up and gets you killed.
And then is deposed by God until he repents and is restored. You make out as if God just stood by and immediately forgave David. That's not what happened. God didn't even let David build the Temple because of blood was on his hands.
>t least in the west, it's catholics converting to orthodoxy for pure theological reasons.
Actually its still majority marriage
>Almost half the nearly 1 million Orthodox Christians in the United States today are converts, the Assembly of Canonical Orthodox Bishops of the United States of America reported in 2015. The majority of these married into the church. But a growing number are joining simply out of an affinity for the faith.
baltimoresun.com
>The most religious catholics will end up orthodox
Is this just a feeling or do you have facts to back that up?
Uriah got what was coming to him in the next life and David had to lose his son over it. Freewill exists and man can choose to go against God and nature. At which point both turn against man.
youtube.com
just a few differences, there are a lot more specially if you look at theology.
Orthodox don't accept original sin, the idea that we are guilty or morally culpable for Adam & Eve's sins, instead we believe in Ancestral sin, the idea that we face the consequences of the Adam's sin, i.e a fallen world, but we are not responsible for it, we don't need to be purified of 'original sin' , babies aren't born inherently sinful, etc.
Also the catholics take a much more scholastic/rationalistic approach to faith while the Eastern church is more about the nuos/intuition/mystical relation to God. Less autism.
>Catholic church subservient to deviant and corrupt cardinals and Vatican dignitaries
fix'd
scooch.org
web.archive.org
Oriental and Eastern are still quite close to each other.
I'll keep that in mind, I am just glad the church is growing.
>I get your point, it's just a silly one because it elevates human conceptions of justice above God's. The answer to your question is right there in Job. Even if God were somehow punishing Uriah (He isn't), who are you to demand justification from Him?
No I don't think you do, with your fedora response. I'm a thinking person who didn't ask to be born into a fallen world trying to understand things That's who the fuck I am. who are you with your condescending answers? So much for Christian humility
>punishing the little guy
>Who's punishing Uriah?
Uh that would be David as allowed by God.
>And then is deposed by God until he repents and is restored. You make out as if God just stood by and immediately forgave David. That's not what happened. God didn't even let David build the Temple because of blood was on his hands.
LMAO its cool bro you can still be KING but you dont get to smash champagne on trump tower sorry man. Dont worry you will still get a special place in heaven.
>Uriah got what was coming to him in the next life
Prove it or shut up.
I'm a Catholic. I lived in Greece for 5 years. I literally love the Orthodox faith, but I'm not smart enough to rule on the higher theological differences. Just being there absorbing the ceremonies, the feel of it for you like, left me in no doubt that this was a "true" apostolic church. However, whether it's due to my upbringing or whatever, the Orthodox faith could never replace Catholicism FOR ME. I tend to see them as 2 sides of a coin. If you attend the Epitaphus, and experience the Greek celebration of Easter (I don't know how well Greek Orthodox reflects Orthodoxy in general): it is somehow less solemn. Perhaps it's all just cultural, but internecine squabbling between the two is just sad.
mayanorthodoxy.com
Here's another source on the Greek Orthodox in Guatemala, I don't like huffpost
>I'm a thinking person who didn't ask to be born into a fallen world trying to understand things
It doesn't seem like you are thinking. Any thinking person would have realized the stupidity of demanding justification from God.
>Uh that would be David as allowed by God.
But it wasn't allowed by God.
>It doesn't seem like you are thinking. Any thinking person would have realized the stupidity of demanding justification from God.
Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Sounds like God's got my back on this one. Nothing wrong with asking questions, thats what life is about. Calling me a "non-thinking person" because you have no answer is not Christian. I empathize I've frustrated you
>But it wasn't allowed by God.
It happened. It was allowed.
I would side with Catholicism.
You make a fair point; but I would argue that God is not presented as an "injured party" but rather as a loving party. One whom is empathetic in virtue as opposed to strictly logical. This, in my opinion, is the unique merit Christianity as a theology has above the other abrahamic faiths. The singularity and authority of True remains unquestionable; yet God as Perfection is yet accessible and relatable.
i.e. God as flesh. Ultimately whole yet miscible unto Man.