Christcucks, what is your response to this?

Before I start, I'd like to say that I was a Christian for the first 17 years of my life, and I think that the teachings of Christianity are excellent, I just have fundamental logical issues with it that mean I no longer believe in God.

I'm not going to argue the validity of the Bible or whether or not God exists, infant let's even assume that he does.

Explain to me the following:
>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
>why would such a being need us to worship him?
>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?

Eternal suffering in hell is supposed to be the ultimate punishment, but how is punishing something you created through emotions you also created in any way something a perfect being would do?
If I create a computer simulation with virtual people that can feel virtual pain and virtually torture those who's programming causes them to disobey some rules I've created, am I some perfect being of justice or just a lonely sadist with too much free time?
Would programming those virtual people to create songs and worship me constantly make me a perfect being or just a narcissist with a superiority complex?

Also any "god is beyond our comprehension" cop outs won't cut it. We're made in God's image, boredom, narcissism, sadism etc. are just as valid for him.

Other urls found in this thread:

pastebin.com/eaEGgUa3
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>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
That's not for us to know.

>why would such a being need us to worship him?
We should not question His Divine plan.

>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?
He knows more than you ever possibly could, so He is always right and you are always wrong when it comes to these matters.

>Also any "god is beyond our comprehension" cop outs won't cut it.

Well then you're fucked.
Go worship a fucking tree if that's more your speed, Heaven's not for everyone.

Eternal punishment means you will die and stay dead nothing more and is a perfect punishment from a perfect being.

Why do I need to worship something?

And how are you so sure that God is perfectly divine when what I've stated in my post suggests the opposite?
Words in a book mean nothing if what they're saying is illogical.

A tree actually seems more of a perfect being than how God supposedly is.

DO NOT QUESTION HIM JUST GO WITH IT AND ACCEPT IT

Not sure if troll or based christcuck.
Anyway;
Btfo nigger enabler

The Bible talks about external suffering and lakes of fire multiple times though, and the widely accepted Christian view is that hell exists.
Why do you think Christians always talk about "saving" people?

how do you feel pain after death, when you have no nervous system? it can't be the spirit, because some people (with spirits) can't feel pain

Ignore mudslim flag, forgot to change after shitpost

If you can feel eternal pleasure in heaven without an earthly body it stands to reason that you can experience eternal suffering without one too.
Suffering doesn't have to be physical.

desu i don't worship anything, I don't care about religion at all
OP there is no god

how would I suffer? because if I am not in pain, I would be fine imo

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
No idea. Anyone one who claims to know is a fucking liar. He loves us and thats about it.
>why would such a being need us to worship him?
He wouldn't need it, just wants his people to be thankful.
>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?
Unlock our potential by studying the creator.


>how is punishing something you created through emotions you also created in any way something a perfect being would do?
Sometimes you get amoral psychopaths.
>simulation with virtual people that can feel virtual pain and virtually torture those who's programming causes them to disobey some rules I've created, am I some perfect being of justice.
He is infinite. You haven't even entertained the idea of doing the simulation with no motive at all,
>Would programming those virtual people to create songs and worship me constantly make me a perfect being or just a narcissist with a superiority complex?
Make you one yes.

>Also any "god is beyond our comprehension" cop outs won't cut it. We're made in God's image, boredom, narcissism, sadism etc. are just as valid for him.
But he is beyond our comprehension. This point narrows ur view to just our experiences as people. It won't cut it cause you won't accept it. Right now, think about you're favorite actor and what he's doing at the moment, now think about the night you're mom's pussy first got parted. Think of both of these things are the very same moment. Picture experiences all those events at the same time. Can you do that while drinking a can of coke and wondering about the process the can went through to get to your hand? Now if ur dumb "monkey" brain can do this naturally without thinking about it now picture some knuckle dragging ape telling you "talk about the taste of poo without comparing it to other tastes cause thats a cop out"

Depression? Heartbreak? Fear? Hopelessness?
There's plenty of ways to torment a mind, physical pain is all in your head anyway.
The creator of the mind can obviously also torture it far beyond what we experience naturally here on earth.

>Unlock our potential by studying the creator
religion has delayed science so fucking much dude

>Sometimes you get amoral psychopaths.
are you saying god is or that he punishes the actions of the few through the many?


I have been void of emotion for most of my life. If I am depressed, hopeless etc for all eternity, I would get over it... If you change my mind to make me more depressed fearful etc you are not punishing me, you are punishing a shell of what I was, and I would take that as a win

If this is crucial to you.
You should go and read some books about it and not post on Sup Forums for answers on existential questions.

Globeshills gtfo. Earth is flat ballcuck.

>why care honestly, its the same as you asking why humans did most of their shit, its probably in our nature but asking when its a god we are talking about is probly useless
>Granting salvation since he loves us first and foremost, I consider it less so worshipping and more so reciprocating his love by the means he likes most, yes, semantics, but its more logical when you word it like this
>Because he loves us and us loving back by worship sounds logical, does it not?

If you dont like these answers, you have a right to but honestly, this is probably the best ones you can find, take em or leave em.

www.needgod.com

So what about science? Religion/Spirituality has more to do with the person and science has more to do with God. God gave free will, some are born with no emotions. Him creating through emotion alone is not all the time neither does he give one person an even amount of one thing or the other. If you want to split hairs there are hundreds of variants of psychopathic. Unless you feel more comfortable with the A and B answer choice you presented.

Read Exodus and Kings, there are many gods in it, he ain't singular or perfect, half the book is devoted to "GOD" trying to use the Jews to wipe out the competitor gods, Baal, Asherah, Succoth Benoth, Nergal etc. GOD hated them Jews too, hated that he had to use them. He says to them "Go off to battle, you will win, i've arranged it, but I can't come with you, you stubborn people have already annoyed me too much and I might accidentally kill you all on the way".

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us

"Perfect" just means perfect in the context of sin. God has emotions similar to human's emotions, that is why The Bible continually says "God is jealous". It also shows that God gets angry and destroys entire groups of people as well, not to mention he also sends them to hell for eternity.

Apparently God wanted to make a creation for some reason. Maybe He is lonely or something.

>Why would such a being need us to worship him?

We are created to worship him, and if we don't, he sends us to Hell for eternity. Similar to if you buy a hunting dog that cannot be tamed, you give it away or put it down or something.

Like I said in the previous point, God apparently has emotions similar to human's emotions. There are also theories that this is some sort of competition between God and Satan, but there is a lot of speculation there.

>Why should we worship him?

Because He created us and we were designed to worship God. Straying from our natural purpose is wrong, and it also ends up sending us to hell.

You know that we were designed to worship God because when people turn away from God, then just try to replace him with something else. Humans must submit to a higher idea or they go insane. Progressivism is an athiest's attempt at worshipping something other than God

>>why care honestly, its the same as you asking why humans did most of their shit, its probably in our nature but asking when its a god we are talking about is probly useless
Humans progressed mostly out of instinct. The need to survive and recreate.
Never once did we feel the need for there to exist an inferior species that worships us though.
The closest thing in modern society would probably be politicians and CEOs seeking power and recognition, which I wouldn't consider a positive trait, and certainly not one belonging to a perfect being.

>>Granting salvation since he loves us first and foremost, I consider it less so worshipping and more so reciprocating his love by the means he likes most, yes, semantics, but its more logical when you word it like this
Why does him loving us require us to be forced to worship him?
Imperfect humans can help the needy without requiring them to get down on their knees and praise them, so why would a perfect god require such a narcissistic display?

>>Because he loves us and us loving back by worship sounds logical, does it not?
Fair enough, but why does someone loving you require you to love them back?
We didn't chose to be created.
It's like having a crush on someone and getting angry when they don't feel the same.
The other person didn't chose to be loved, so why should they be punished for not loving back?

Shrug, gods cant be assesed the same way humans are, honestly.

You can choose to not do it, you aren't forced to, same as someone can abscond of doing whatever beneficial to him or respectful to his elders if he wishes to. Detrimental but you can, not so much narcicistic as the way to properly talk and communicate praise to god but whatever.

You can just ignore him. Dick move, but whatever, long as you believe in him, don't reject him and act like a good person, following his commandments and what not, even if you aren't too keen on worshiping him, he should consider you worthy of salvation.

The thing of the debate is "you can, but you shouldn't". You can say fuck off to someone who loved you, made you and what not, but you shouldn't. You are free to do it, hurt the father figure who wishes the best for you and what not, you can, but should you flip the finger to your supreme father figure?

In the end, its up to you Old Ally. Do whatever you wish to do, long as you do not turn your face to him and reject him, you are valid for salvation and id like to have some banter with you brit lads when the trumpets ring, eh?

Let me start off by saying I'm not a Christian. I believe in a divine spiritual presence that influences all things, but does not directly change anything.

I was like you, OP. I couldn't understand why anyone would choose to believe in such a thing, especially Christianity and its version of God, which is a jealous, manipulative God which punishes people for simply being skeptical.

The question I didn't ask was: Who am I to say there is no God, and why are all those spiritual people happier than me?

It's because they don't have to carry the weight of the world on their shoulders any more. God takes care of the other stuff for them.

I am not a Christian, but I had a spiritual awakening to the divine consciousness that pervades all things. My spiritual beliefs come from my previous psychedelic experiences. I no longer worry about things that are out of my control. Things are just going to happen.

It's difficult to simplify it into words. But I had an epiphany when I decided to choose my own idea of what God should be. Everything about me changed. I feel reborn, and life is a gift to be cherished while we have it.

The drugs just chemically altered your mind. Nothing else in that post makes sense.

You're a piece of shit and your inability to acknowledge and your lack of desire to be better, and more like God, indicates and proves your evil nature. People who reject Christ are intellectually and philosophically just purely stupid. Life is a gift, we messed it up and we suffer the consequences and appreciate the gift or mock and reject it. Sinners are dead, they will die, while the saved will live forever through the forgiveness and sacrifice of Jesus Christ our Lord. Worship is the act of appreciating the gift. Eternal suffering is the natural consequence of sin. It gives you natural suffering in life and it will steal life from you now and forever as long as you live by it and for it. Read the bible

also fag op, this is earth, not that satanic deception

>christcuck
/thread

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
>why would such a being need us to worship him?
It's interesting that you think God needs anything. I'm not sure where you get that logically, so I'm not sure how to respond to it in all honesty

>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?
Again, I don't know that the human ideal of "requiring" something is even at play here, but to answer why we should worship that which created our existence...I think that answers itself, ya know?

I had this spiritual awakening while sober.
Do we really have control over anything that happens, really? No. We can influence things, but we can't control them. There is always going to be something out of our control.

Making peace with that fact is the first thing to do. It's hard to put into words, but my higher power is the universe itself. I see order among the seemingly endless chaos of the universe.

That is my god, and it is a fair one. Science will not be able to ever explain consciousness, nor recreate it. I have no doubts about that. We operate the vehicle that is our body and mind, yet we often think we ARE the vehicle. We are not. We move on after this body dies. Heaven and Hell are states of mind. Everything just is.

And of course I'm going to sound crazy to someone who hasn't had this experience. But fact is, that anyone who has will tell you the same thing. I have reached what Buddhists call Nirvana, or Zen. I like who I am today and I enjoy the present rather than mull over the future and past. This is what life is about. Not money, material possessions, women, drugs, or anything that we seek to attain to bolster our sense of self. I am more than my self image or what other people think of me.

Anyway I was atheist once, and I reveled in arguing against the existence of God. Honestly I was miserable. Why argue with religious people? If it makes then happy, then that's all that matters, no?

This is rather brainlet tier.

Ignorance is bliss.
Of course believing in a God that cares for you is going to make you feel happier, no one ever claimed otherwise.
No one would ever argue that God existing is a bad thing.

You can't just "choose your own idea of what God should be" and genuinely believe in it though because you obviously know that you just fucking made it up.

You can regurgitate rhetoric all you want but you're just ignoring my entire post.
Being a parrot doesn't make your faith stronger, refute what I'm trying to say if you're so confident in your beliefs.

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
Presupposes God's will necessitates weakness based on a faulty induction that God's will has human necessities, which implies God isn't omnipotent precedent to the conclusion that God isn't omnipotent, therefore this begs the question. God's will does not necessitate weakness. It is possible that omnipotence includes the ability to will without weakness, e.g. God willing things simply because they are good.
Also presupposes God has a human perception of time and knowledge. It could be that in God's perspective, nothing was ever 'missing' because He has always been omniscient of everything, or because everything has "already happened."

The mistake that all atheists seem to make almost willingly, is to assume that God is like them, and therefore can't exist. It is to assume implicitly and fallaciously that there cannot be anything greater than one's self. Every single atheist argument has to presuppose God doesn't exist in order for its logic to work, which can produce nothing but unsound or invalid conclusions.

>why would such a being need us to worship him?
You misunderstand what "worship" is. We worship Him through repentance. It is also coming into communion with Him. You are presupposing, again, that experience of an actually-existent God doesn't exist, and thus that it is something you wouldn't want to do.

>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?
You have the free will to choose your own pride instead.

>Also any "god is beyond our comprehension" cop outs won't cut it.
"Cop out" implies nothing can exist beyond our understanding, which implies reality is contingent on our thoughts. Ironically, this implies you are the one imagining your own reality, not Christians.

You rejected Christ because you were led to by emotion, not because of rational reason. Now, of course your position seems rational to you, because of an interesting phenomenon: once you've rejected Christ, you can no longer comprehend rational arguments for Christianity.

This will go straight through your head and you will not change you mind. The only thing that can bring you back to God is to stop presupposing other positions are rational, and seek Him with faith and the humility that you are not your own god. If you won't do that, "you" are objectively evil and objectively deserving of hell, and your fee fees don't change that.

Here is a refutation of every other atheist argument I could find:
pastebin.com/eaEGgUa3

I refuted everything you were trying to say, you ignored it and dismissed it as regurgitated rhetoric

>once you've rejected Christ, you can no longer comprehend rational arguments for Christianity.
because your mind isn't yours*

>and I think that the teachings of Christianity are excellent
Kill yourself nigger lover

>Just turn off your brain bro!

>Assumes God needs to do anything
>Assumes God needs anything
>Assumes God is narcissistic
>Assumes God created emotionally
>Assumes perfect justice exists without punishment

>assumes niggers are people

Christ can't be rejected because Christ is a myth. This has now become fact to those brave and strong enough to accept the truth.

>i'm right because i'm brave and stronk
t. feminist

SpaceJew isn't real you fucking dip

You will never understand. That's not my responsibility.

Yes, I can just choose my idea of God. Because there is no religion in which God fits my standards. But I believe there is something benevolent out there nonetheless. God isn't just going to do miracles in people's lives (except for the rare overnight sudden changes in people's whole being like mine), you have to do some work. Negativity creates negativity. Positivity creates positivity. Of course you're going to see no evidence for God if you're in a negative feedback loop and constantly need evidence for everything. I'm a heroin addict. I thought I was going to die from using heroin eventually and never thought I'd want to stop. My girlfriend died Christmas 2015 from an overdose and that started a downward spiral into depression and heavy drug use in the hopes it would kill me and end my suffering. Now, I love myself for who I am, and enjoy life more than I ever thought possible. I feel like I'm looking at life through the eyes of a child again. I see synchronicities everywhere.

I used to call people who think like I now think delusional idiots. But I now understand what life is all about. I don't have to know all the details of what God is, nor do i have to know the nature of existence in general. Because I'll never know any of that, and that's okay. The human mind is limited, and so is its capacity for using logic to figure out the meaning of life. Fact is, logic doesn't enter the equation. There's a reason why one side of the brain is logic and the other side is emotion and creativity. Use both. It has unlocked such a great potential in me and anything is possible if I put my mind to it.

I hear you my dude. I've only just begun to really dive into more esoteric history, but it seems like the Christians of old thought more like you. It's hard to study the words of the Buddha, Jesus Christ and the other great teachers and not see how they all speak to the same Truths. Anything else, everything else, is just noise.

Have you read Schure's Jesus, the Last Great Initiate? Pretty sure it's in the public domain as a free PDF nowadays. Methinks you would like.

Why not ask the question to all followers of religion? Why just christcucks?

A: God as creator is not theologically sound, because God can not be that which is. Also only things that are, are capable of action and motive.

1:)If God is not ultimate then something is over God and you are worshiping, looking up to, emulating the wrong thing etc. and should more on to whatever your definition of God is inferior or reliant on.

2:) In order for things to be it must be possible to be. In order to exist it must be possible to exist. For example take the screen you are probably seeing these words on, for it to exist it requires volume, it requires actual space in order for there to be somewhere for it to be. All that "is" requires the potential for it's own existence in order to exist. Existence is reliant on potential. Therefore that which is can not also be ultimate due to it's reliance on potential.

3:) Therefore God can not be that which is, this is is not the same thing as saying that "There isn't a God" it is more saying that "God is not" as far as atheist vs agnosticism vs deism this is an important distinction. If it is a thing it is not God.

4:) Only a subset of all things, Entities, are capable of preforming actions and having/expressing will.

5:) Not being, God is not capable of acting or having/expressing will

So, as per your questions:

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
God does not create as creating would require limiting God to the role of actor/entity


>why would such a being need us to worship him?
"He" isn't a good word for something that "is not", but "He doesn't"


>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?

And again "He doesn't" so don't worry yourself so much about it. Anything that requires your worship or obedience isn't worth of it anyways.

Personally I believe that the Supreme Being, Creator, God, Consciousness, the Universe or whatever you wanna call it is perfect in every way and as such has no sense of self so obviously humans were created in the image of God as a mean of thr Godhead to explore itself. Christ is a bodhisattva but the value of Christianity is that it gives good moral foundation and structure, as opposed to hinduism where the lack of said structure leads to street shitting and the like

I have not read that. But I see what you are saying. There are truths in the Bible, but it is not the absolute truth. Once you have had a spiritual awakening, it is rather easy to discern what is truth in the bible and what is false. Jesus was just a man, albeit a spiritually attuned one who saw through all the facades of human ego. All emotions can be traced back to love or fear. Jealousy? Traced back to fear. Anger? The root cause is fear. Despair? Fear that there is no hope (lack of faith in the benevolence of the universe, or "god"). Anxiety? Fear.

Fact is there's nothing to be afraid of. We are all going to die someday. That's a fact. No reason to be afraid of it. Just make sure to enjoy your life before you do, and focus on the things that matter, like family, true friends, and having fun while you can. Material possessions are for people who need to bolster their self image (ego). Ego is a facade, our false image of ourselves. Our consciousness comes from divinity, from the universal consciousness in all things. Humans are unique in that they have a capacity for reasoning and for ego, and have more developed brains.

We are not gods. We will never be able to fully understand the nature of life, the universe, and everything. Our consciousness comes from "God", but we as humans are not gods. We are limited beings.

You hit the nail on the head, my dude. I like how you put how we are created by God as a means of the Godhead to explore itself. Pretty much exactly what I believe.

god don't have to answer shit. if he exists. which is a pretty good possibility.

Anyone have any questions for me? I like talking about spirituality and helping people understand, where I can. I don't know everything nor will I ever, but spiritually I have attained a level which most people never get to.

Note: I'm no better or worse than anyone else. I'm not trying to be self righteous or anything. I had a spiritual awakening whilst in rehab on August 27th and everything changed that day, and I've been happy ever since.

Hate to break it to you mate but you're absolutely fucking retarded if you've been a Christian for SEVENTEEN years and

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
>why would such a being need us to worship him?
>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?

Are the questions you're asking. kys

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?

His ways and thoughts are higher than ours. How could we possibly understand a Holy perfect God that lives outside of time? He created time.

>why would such a being need us to worship him?

It's our choice and truly worshiping is pure bliss. But one day, you and everyone else will bow before Christ and declare Jesus is Lord. It will either be by joyful choice or command before being cast into eternal damnation.

>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?

Because he's perfect and creator of the entire universe. What more do you need? If you don't have Christ, you will be empty and know no peace. I have the Holy Spirit because I am bathed in the blood of Jesus. Because I have the Holy Spirit...

Galatians 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


These things benefit my life in all areas.

God didn't need to create us, he choose to give us the gift of life.

God doesn't need anything, worshiping him helps our bond grow stronger with him and avoid a life of degeneracy. Avoiding sin helps to lead a fulfilling life friend. Giving into temptations and sin brings no real joy, just short term pleasure.

Just because your parents took you to church for your first 17 years doesn't make you a christian. You've never had faith because you never worked for it. It requires work and discipline to be a Christian, to fear God, to ask for forgiveness. You may think you've figured it all out, but you haven't.

You can either admit to God that you're a contemptible piece of shit, full of sin, or you can keep asking questions that get you nowhere, giving in to sin, until you die. You don't deserve the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. No one does. You should bear in mind that YOU DESERVE FAR WORSE FOR YOUR SINS THAN WHAT THIS WORLD HAS TO OFFER.

This line of discussion is so fucking boring now, I can't stand it. The mythology of the Bible is not literally true, period. Can we just move on from that point? Or do we have to twiddle our thumbs talking about "hurr durr why god lets people die tho lolololz"

Brother, I get you're coming from a good place, but have you ever been an atheist? Christianity is too limited. There are truths in the bible, yes, but also falsehoods. Heaven and Hell are states of mind.

If thinking like this makes you truly happy, then by all means do it. But telling people they'll go to hell because they don't adhere to your religion's standards isn't right. I'll never fully understand God, but I know that he is a purely benevolent being and such things as punishment by damnation to hellfire are things only a human could dream up. God has his own way of dealing with that. Straying from God is a punishment in its own right, as we will be miserable without God. But sending someone to hell for not believing is vengeful/wrathful, and not a Godly quality.

God loves everyone, regardless of religion, sexual preference, race, etc.

Christianity often converts people out of fear of hell. Fear is not Godly. We should not fear God. Fear is the absence of faith. When we are not spiritually connected, we base our actions on ego and fear. We attain material possessions and success in order to boster our fragile sense of self and to fill that God sized void inside of us.

When we truly are connected to God, our void disappears, and love and happiness are the only things that matter. I was a Christian for 18 years, but then became an atheist. I know God now, but Christianity is too limiting for me. I search for the truth in all religions, and that is the ultimate truth for me.

You're halfway there dude. Thing is, we shouldn't fear God. God is love. Fear is the absence of faith.

Everything is okay, and always will be okay. The bible was written by men. Men who use people's fear of God to guide people into doing things based on that fear.

We judge our sins, not God. God knows that our true, divine nature transcends our earthly works. True connection with God will bring a desire to spread joy and goodwill to the earth, and minimize sin and conflict. Sins are acts committed in order to bring short term pleasure to fill the God sized void in us.

>Sins are acts committed in order to bring short term pleasure to fill the God sized void in us.
I feel the same way about drugs

You can dream up whatever God you want, but the Bible flat out rejects this hippy, do-good, God loves everyone theology. I really don't care. I'm not trying to convert anyone to Christianity here. I don't give a shit about any of you.

>>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
Why not?
>>why would such a being need us to worship him?
Why not? He made us, why wouldn't we worship our creator?
>>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?
Again, why not worship that which had the power to bring about everything that exists? He's a powerful dude, after all.

I was a heroin addict. My girlfriend died on Christmas 2015 of an overdose and it spiraled me into heavy heroin use, depression, and suicidal ideations.

Indeed, I was using to fill that void inside of me.

Turns out, the void in me wasn't the size of a woman or drugs. It was God.
I truly loved her and still do, but I was never able to stay clean for long until I had a spiritual awakening. I no longer crave drugs now.

You just convinced me not to believe in god

You say you were a Christian for 17 years, and I imagine your theological training did not advance much beyond the Sky Daddy level. You imagine God is some kind of human-like mind moved by human wants and needs. But God is the ultimate Good, and it happens that creating good things is a property of the Good. He could have sat on his metaphorical ass and contemplated himself for eternity, but God is not a NEET. NEETs are not good.

>Since, then, God, Who is good and more than good, did not find satisfaction in self-contemplation, but in His exceeding goodness wished certain things to come into existence which would enjoy His benefits and share in His goodness, He brought all things out of nothing into being and created them, both what is invisible and what is visible. Yea, even man, who is a compound of the visible and the invisible. And it is by thought that He creates, and thought is the basis of the work, the Word filling it and the Spirit perfecting it.

Why would you not want to worship the ultimate Good, reverencing it and conforming yourself to it?

You also just convinced me not to believe in god, ill just stop reading here

Those 17 are from birth, I was raised Christian and I only started to doubt a year or so before I stopped identifying as one.
These questions aren't supposed to be super philosophical or anything, they're just the sort of things I considered before I stopped believing.
Almost every argument against Christianity seems to be trying to factually or scientifically disprove it, I never see any debates regarding the actual logic behind it, so I thought it would be interesting to bring up.

A good 5 or so of those later years were strong faith, I used to devoutly read the bible, regularly pray, and followed God's teaching as much as possible.
You can try and discredit me all you want but I genuinly believed.

In all those years though I never felt anything. No power of the spirit, no prayers answered beyond simple coincidence. Of course, that never bothered me at the time because "God works in mysterious ways" and all that but looking back I feel like it's pretty clear I was just fooling myself.

Ignorance is truly bliss and I wish I could go back to how I felt then but I'd just be lying to myself. I don't hate Christianity and I'm not ignorant to what it is, I just now view it as a nice concept, but one that's ultimately too good to be true.

You are totally correct. The Vatican just named their telescope Lucifer. Duckduckgo it

And that's where the Bible limits you. It was written by men. Some of those men had good will, and some sought to control the masses. It's actually pretty damn easy to tell which parts are which. Take the truths in it and throw the rest out into the trash.

Why does the hebrew bible mention two heavens?
Why does it used mixed plural and singular mention of god?

You convinced yourself, not me. It's not my responsibility to convert you.

I gotchu senpai:
>>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
You know and control everything, time is meaningless, and everything is under your power. Bo-ring, but what to do? You need to makeSomething interesting, but even before you make these things you already understand them. Maybe it's fun for a while, but like King Midas when everything you touch turns to gold gold eventually loses all value. Need to find a way to make something that has a very specific quality, the quality of being unpredictable; something with free will.
>>why would such a being need us to worship him?
I don't know why you think that he needs us to worship him. We should worship him because nothing is more worthy of worship, he created all that was.
>>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?
We should worship him because nothing is more worthy of worship, he created all that is, and all things that create themselves.

my favorite part about Atheists and agnostics is how they have to twist and dance and manipulate their thoughts and lives in order to "believe" there is NOT a God. Every fiber of our being screams for Him. Every atom in nature points to Him. You may say you believe there is no God, but in the quiet of your mind when it's only you and Him...you KNOW He's there.

The good news is that He loves you. Choosing to not believe in Him doesn't change the fact that He is and He is love.

>why would he have the need to create us?

That's easy. We are His poem. We are His art. We are the proof of His goodness and the result of His creativity. We are His children, made in His image. Why does anyone have kids? Before you have children you only think you know what love is. He loved us so much, that he created us with freewill, knowing we would jack it all up and knowing that he would have to suffer and die to create a way to restore us to Him.

>why would he need us to worship him?
He doesn't. If we don't worship Him the very rocks will cry out and proclaim His glory. The earth declares His majesty. Worshipping Him is for OUR sake. We are ALLOWED to worship Him. Worship has many states and meanings from shouting and cheering to silent adoration. We worship Him as result of who He is and what He has done. He was dead and HE HAS RISEN. to take away our shame and sin, and despite all that we do against him he still loves us. HALLELUJAH

>why should we worship him?
see above.

Your understanding of God is so finite you couldn't understand a single basic attribute of Him. and He is ALL in ALL. At some point you will let go and realize He is the creator, hopefully it's before you leave this earthly flesh.

Also it sounds like you have a pretty limited understanding of the Bible. I'm sure you've read it, but you should really give it a good shot, KJV only. read the entire thing. and then tell us you don't believe.

>why would a supposedly perfect being have the need to create us?
The fact that you say supposedly is disturbing and makes me think that you have a devil, the devil always puts a question mark where God puts a period. He did not need to create us, he created us out of love

>why would such a being need us to worship him?
Again, you keep attributing needs to him, he needs nothing, he is self sufficient, self existant, we need to worship him, because he is God and worshipping anyother is both vanity and wickedness(since he is obly worthy of praise). If we praise those who are unworthy of praise we lie and lying is a sin

>even if there is a reason for him creating us and a non narcissistic reason for him requiring worship, why should we worship him?
You should worship him because he commands you to, because you will be blessed and because it is the truth (he is worthy)

I feel sad for you, a double minded man is unstable in al his ways, you are filled with unbelief and have no sure foundation. I have God, but what do you have? You are nothing without God and with the mind he gave you you blasheme, because you are foolish and wicked.


You are a fool, God cannot sin and there is no darkness in him. You cannot comprehend his love or his word or his being, because you hate the truth. If you were honest and loving you'd find God but you don't like the idea of God because he condemns you because you are evil. Trust in Jesus Christ to save you from your sins, otherwise you will burn in hell forever. I know you think you are untouchable, but at least you can breathe now and have food and have water and aren't suffering. That eill change if you don't change your unbelief to belief. Convince yourself of the truth before you get more proof than you need

>need to create us
doesn't need to
>need to worship him
we don't have to

I'm not even religious, but your questions are dumb
>why would a supposedly perfect being have
>why would such a being need us to worship him?
the need to create us?
Action doesn't require a need, it only requires intent.

1. He didn't NEED to create us
2. He doesn't need us to worship him but it's our duty that he requires of us.
3. We worship him because he requires us of it.
4. We didn't create God through our emotions. Christianity states that God is TRUTH not feelings.
5. People have to pay the price for the wrongs they do if you are just
6. God created us so we can glorify him and enjoy eternal happiness with him. It doesn't matter if he's a narcissist. Thats the reality we were put in, either form yourself to it or rebel against and pay consequences

>I'm not going to argue the validity of the Bible or whether or not God exists, infant let's even assume that he does.
> Explain to me what I want to hear without using the evidence I don't want.

Get a life. Jesus'.

>we just turn to something else

God you stupid fuck, it's because people know they can't trust their own definition of "morality" because they're too afraid to lay the responsibility for such a definition at their own feet. And if you say "durr but money is god to some people" then you're doubly retarded. Fixation on a material object does not make a god. FUCKING FUCK I CANT STAND CHRISTKEKS

Wow great job defining "reason" as "faith in Christ" wow. I'm just sitting here wowing so hard right now. Wow.

You sound balanced. Your opinion clearly matters.

well thanks for making all us Christians look like idiots...
good job

Lol can you even answer them satisfactorily? Idiot. The problem of evil is central to most atheistic conversion and has yet to be answered in a satisfactory manner or else you wouldn't have apostates.

People aren't "tempted by Satan " to leave, though they might teach you that in Sunday school. Edgelord teenagers are just going through natural rebellion and can't actually voice their philosophical basis for leaving the church. These people become "born again" once they realise they need and crave a moralistic scaffolding for their behavior in order to properly function in society.

He expressed his faith well. I don't think it made him look bad.

What was wrong with it?

Ecclesiastes calls many of these speculations vain. The translation is something like the whisping of air. I think that sums up OP's vain metaphysical insecurities. What does it matter?

None of this matters to God. None of those questions change what you are supposed to do with your life.

Many, many people would disagree with you, brainlet. The discussion is not over. Period.

Gayest post award.

ROFL. The "problem of evil" as you call it, is clearly only a problem to those that leave.

Koo

You're angry at yourself. You realize that right?

because it's idiotic
God gave us things like logic wisdom and imagination so we could use them

sure there are some things we may never be able to understand with our finite brains but the questions OP asked are not those things

I strongly feel that God gave us our minds for the precise reason of trying to understand Him and the universe we created

I think saying
>well we shouldn't try to understand God cuz we're not God
is doing our Designer a disservice
I believe that's the opposite of what He wants

Yes because it's a huge problem. Just look at what you're proposing with your supposed "perfect creator" that requires worship and defines morality: he created a universe which permits evil to transpire, and he defines what evil is in the first place.

Read Brothers Karamazov, specifically the passage over whether or not the creation of the universe is worth the suffering of a little, innocent child.

He created*

What if I told you it's possible to believe in the philosophical ideas and moral values in the bible without believing that a God exists?

I wonder what Sup Forums's take on this question is: If I believe that the concepts and moral guidelines of the bible is correct but I don't believe in the god part, does that make me an Atheist or a Christian?

Reading this thread so far has just shown me more proof that Christfags are delusional.
A tl;dr of the explanations are
>um dude like you should believe in him because he is God?
There is no evidence of his existence. You guys are no different than people who believe in myths like bigfoot or the lochness monster. Give me a break.
You were addicted to heroin and your girlfriend died on Christmas and it lead you to depression and near suicide, yet you think God is here for you? Get some help, mate.

Enjoy hell fag

easy question..if you don't accept jesus as your savior, you are not a christian.

And you're a wannabe psychoanalyst preacher. I'm not angry at myself, I just can't believe the idiocy of christfags and the fact that their line of reasoning is throughout the majority of our population is infuriating.

Imagine most the population believed the only path to salvation was stretching your neck or getting hoops in your lip or streching your dick. Compulsory worship for the reward of eternal salvation is no different. It's a compulsory action with a basis of reward and its pure human weakness

it's not like the words you use are some lofty topics
the word atheist has a strict definition and has very little to do with morality

if you believe with certainty that there is no deity or greater power that created the universe and life then you're by definition an atheist

the other two options are theist or agnostic
no in between