Would communism work in the west???

Just curious. Everyone seems to hate it but it really has never been tried to it's full extent before

No.

It's never worked in _any_ county with infrastructure.

No.

What is its full extent?
It always seems to come down to, kill the current king and replace him with stalin/mao/brand x as the new king.
New hierarchy same old shit.

Nope, doesn't matter where it gets implemented, it always ends up the same: Corruption of the leaders.

Capitalism shows there's enough money for everyone and even then there's corruption in it.

Communism its a failed idea.

Has it worked anywhere else? No. Why would it work here?

Definition of "full extent": "To the point that it has actually worked."

Obviously it wouldn't work, it has never worked, it only results in mass death, and those who push it in the U.S. deserve to get the shit kicked out of them at a minimum

Closest you got was Hitler.

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>would it work
sure

the problem is you cant flip a switch and make it happen, and there is no process by which it can be brought to happen.

Communisms fundamental idea can be extrapolated into the realization that all problems will vanish if there is no power gradient. This is true, power gradients are what cause all conflicts, not the things people complain about or think do, but the fact that one person has power of whatever kind to oppress another. Even a minor imperceptible difference will, eventually, over time, lead to absolute corruption.

The problem with communism is that while it fundamentaly seeks to remove this problem, there is no way to do so with out obtaining a favorable power gradient to enact these things, which as previously stated, leads to absolute corruption.

All systems lead to this. Sup Forums is retarded for singling out communism, but the truth is it cant work because it can't be achieved.

>real communism has never been tried

They tried communism in Germany. It failed.

In the West alone? No. Communism will be global, as it will replace capitalism, which is global.

Stop eating food.

>Communisms fundamental idea can be extrapolated into the realization that all problems will vanish if there is no power gradient.
No. Communism is a social movement the fundamental goal of which is the abolition of property.

economically ehh
socially not at all
how you gonna keep living if all the women are working

He was saying that it is essentially that belief. If you think it's false then prove that it is false. Simply saying that its essentially something different is nothing more than simple contradiction and not an argument.

K. Marx:
>Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.
>In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.

>
>K. Marx:
>>Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things.
>>In this sense, the theory of the Communists may be summed up in the single sentence: Abolition of private property.


And how are you going to achieve that?

It has been attempted 40 fucking times around the world only resulting in fucking shit.

You have a higher chance of building immunity to fucking gun shots than you do with your faggot ideology that relies on a dumb population to be willingly to be hand the keys to their fate to a bunch of faggots in their society

By socialising every single thing in the world, one by one.

>but it really has never been tried to it's full extent before
oh ffs

sage

>By socialising every single thing in the world, one by one.
>Replace "socialising" with stealing
>Implying you aren't just a jew nigger
So are you going to be the one "socializing" my shit or are you going to be that one bitch hiding in his office sending his lackeys to do it in your place?

>Would communism work in the west
No, for many obvious reasons but the most glaring and the one that the far left never considers is the proliferation of property rights

With no property rights, authoritarian rule, and AI central planning are the only ways a communist state can get close to its ideal society that is classless and stateless.

It still won't work because it isn't a concept of Marxist views therefore not real communism and it can't work because there is not enough power in the world to make all the necessary calculations for a central AI that can account for people's stupidity.

And before you go on about how automation or some shit can make it work you need to realize Marxism is a criticism of the value of labor and is based around a value system of a product. Its not a criticism to replace capitalism. So automation, which replaces workers, is not marxist or communist at all but simply pure capitalist.

So basically no, there are many reasons it won't work in the west but property rights is probably the most obvious reason why.

Communism would work if people weren't cunts. Fortunately people are cunts. So fuck communism

Fucking christ you people are retarded.

>>Replace "socialising" with stealing
No. Since we'll make the law, the law will state that society is the rightful owner of what used to be yours, so it is you who will be stealing if you try to oppose it.

>So are you going to be the one "socializing" my shit or are you going to be that one bitch hiding in his office sending his lackeys to do it in your place?
Doesn't matter.

No, but you should try it in the middle east. Travel there, NAO.

Capitalism is a code word for white genocide.

JUST

No property = no markets = no prices = no efficient allocation of resources

Unless you want "the great leader" or "the party" deciding wether you get rice or baseball gloves, and how much of it, google "Mises' economic calculation problem" user

Every night I dream of being a part of the white guard in the Finnish civil war, so I can shoot your dumb brains out on the party head quarters wall.

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>oh no, it's almost as if a massive societal and economic change forced the USSR to go practically bankrupt and sell all of it's oil fields, mines, etc. and there was no money for anyone, at all
>Nope, it's capitalism!

>no prices = no efficient allocation of resources
Tell me: how does the existence of prices contribute to the efficient allocation of resources?

Hint: you shall start by defining "efficient allocation of resources".

Humans aren't Bees or Ants so it could never work

Yeah yeah "Muh Communism has never really been tried before"

DO NOT INTERFERE WITH SECURITY OPERATIONS.
CODE RED: TARGET AT LARGE. PUNISHMENT: PENDING.

Of course it wouldn't work you absolute fucking retard

Maybe, maybe on the 1 millionth try it will finally work. We will never know until we try.

highly unlikely

but i can assure you that helicopters are working fine

>No. Since we'll make the law, the law will state that society is the rightful owner of what used to be yours, so it is you who will be stealing if you try to oppose it.
Except you would need to be 1. fucking voted in by the people who are willingly to forfeit their shit to some faggot who barely can get himself a job, 2. be voted in and hold the majority by the people who once again be willingly to sign over their shit to you and your parade of failed McDonalds cashiers and gender studied faggots, and 3. have complete consensus among the public to not string you up by your feet to a tree and play line your sights and fire at the dirty communist rat game.

But, nope. This is shit that will be filed next to the Communism is feasible and Jews aren't rats folders.

>Are you going to do your dirty work
>Doesn't matter
Except it does faggot because, last time I checked Commies where all about the whole no hierarchy shit and etc. Funny how I got a commie here saying he isn't willing to join his brothers, sisters, and fellow degenerates in going door to door and be part of the "socializing" force.

>so it is you who will be stealing if you try to oppose it
i sure hope this is bait

no idiot. Marxism is bullshit. Marx could not forsee the middle class. Read pic related

???
Also, check'd

prices convey tons of information, but the most important of them is scarcity. without prices or with gvt controlled prices, you are wasting resources.

I can give you examples if you aren't able to grasp this concept. no shame in that.

>Would communism work in the west???
NOPE.

>be voted
>have complete consensus
That's not gonna happen, and desu we don't care because we are much more numerous anyway.
And when I say "we" I mean the proletariat; you know, the people who don't care about giving up their shit for they have no shit to give in the first place, thanks to your beloved capitalist exploitation.

>Except it does faggot because, last time I checked Commies where all about the whole no hierarchy shit and etc.
Check again, you mistake Marxism for anarchism. You may want to read Engel's "On authority", or any work by Bordiga.

>Funny how I got a commie here saying he isn't willing to join his brothers, sisters, and fellow degenerates in going door to door and be part of the "socializing" force.
Oh I'm perfectly willing to. But it still doesn't matter to you.

>No. Communism is a social movement the fundamental goal of which is the abolition of property.
This isn't a dichotomy, you idiot. He said X isn't achievable because of Y, and you retorted with "No. This is what X is," which is completely irrelevant in negating Y. His argument was that all attempts at communism fail because establishing communism requires establishing an initial power gradient, which no one has been willing to give up. Then you proceed to define communism again as if you're saying anything relevant. You are an idiot.

You realise "stealing" is a legal term, that makes sense only in regard to a legally sanctioned property, right?

>I can give you examples if you aren't able to grasp this concept. no shame in that.
Tell me then. I am a supermarket owner. How do prices inform me about scarcity?

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No. For It to work today, 90% of the world population wpuld need to die, and those who survive would be spoiled NEETs living off robobux. Could possibly happen In a few millenia

Proof of communism not working:
>In a communist society everyone provides according to his ability and recieves according to his need
>be a retarded 4chin nazi LARPer
>unable to provide to society because "muh autism"
>NEEDS another brand new ferrari
>state can't give him a new ferrari for the 10th time this month
>the state can't provide you what what you consider your "need"
>communism fails

>If my property isn't absolute then nothing is.

>cueer

The 1850s are over, Goldstein

You're right: the proletariat is much more developed today.

How about tha fact that you are aware of your resource restriction by your wage and you get to spend it however you wish thus sending information to producers on what is demanded and what is not?

Nah, the leader witch balls you have in your mouth probably knows better than you how much toilet paper you nedd per month

Is that a British short hair?

>Tell me then. I am a supermarket owner. How do prices inform me about scarcity?

well, truffles are generally more expensive than potatoes, aren't they?

but we should get to the more important funtion of prices in society.

when electrity was provided by the gvt for almost free in this country, back in the commie days, people would leave their lights on all the time, not caring at all about the consumption. Can you imagine how much electrity got wasted back in that day? how much fossil fuels we plundered for nothing?

>well, truffles are generally more expensive than potatoes, aren't they?
So, as a supermarket owner, what conclusion do I draw from that?

>thus sending information to producers on what is demanded and what is not?
How do prices contribute to this sending of information?

No. if it didn't work on a small scale why would it work on a larger one? also the USSR was fucking huge and that shit was a top tier shit hole.

KEK.

These people a full spectrum retarded.

>muh! Communism will replace Capitalism, but it will be global.

So Global capitalism will be replaced with Global communism by 'natural cause', yet Communists are against globalism?!

>You wont have property, it will belong to everyone, by which we mean it will belong to the state

So resulting in State Capitalism, the type that EVERY not real communism nation has resulted in, and then promptly failed as a state.

Honestly are you fuckers smoking something's to be able to do these mental gymnastics that defy simple logic?

yes

the higher the price, the higher the incentive to provide said good/service.

I don't know. What conclusion do you draw from e=mc2 or from the knowledge of how electricity works?

No, and in America we will hunt and kill commies.

I have seen a lot of people talking about communism lately. The one thing i would really like to ask you as a communist is why should we trust you to roll the dice with our society. you believe you can execute communism correctly where all the others have failed. Given that any transition in the west today would hinge on a violent revolution by a minority of the population un-democratically seizing power (because the proletariat will never collapse a society until they are literally starving, which marx expected but which was abandoned by those who followed when it was clear that was not happening and peoples absolute conditions were improving), how do you plan to hold on to that power without a civil war or mass executions. How do you plan to handle political dissent and a desire by a majority to choose to return to democracy and or capitalism, how do you plan to enforce redistribution of wealth,how do you plan to deal with flight of key people in society like doctors, engineers , power plant workers and agricultural specialists to other countries or their death in the civil war/ civil unrest which could literally collapse the nations ability to function overnight. how do you plan to deal with effects of turning to a communist system on your countries economy. For example how would you deal with the collapse of the value of your countries currency internationally during/post civil war. How will you deal with the trade blockades etc that would surely roll in from seizing the assets of various international corporations in your state that are the marker of our interconnected global economy. To me , a society is like a plane in flight. A feudal society is like a paper plane. A modern one is like a jet. There may be a better way to run society than what we have, just as there may be a better way to power an airplane like full solar. But trusting you that we should switch to communism is like trusting that we can change the engine of a jet mid flight.

>the higher the price, the higher the incentive to provide said good/service.
But as a producer I set the price. So what new information does it give to me?

>I don't know.
I'm disappointed.

I mean you can absolutely do it, as long as you are willing to crash the plane and kill a shit load of people on it so that you can then rebuild the plane with your new untested engine. But im not willing to let you crash the plane to test your pet theory whether its communism or anything else, but especially not communism given its track record. You are asking us to crash the plane to replace the engine with a cardboard box that says engine on it. I'm sorry man but as it is, i'm not buying it.

>But as a producer I set the price. So what new information does it give to me?

it provides incentive for you to produce more and for new producers to enter the market.

>I'm disappointed.

You're disappointed at yourself for not being able to draw conclusion from a piece of information? You need to be spoonfed answers and solutions? I'm not running your business, you know.

Daily reminder that TFR of Russian nation fall under 2.1 (replacement level) in 1965. TFR of Russian nation proletariat fall under 2.1 in 1925. Communism is code word for white genocide.

>You are asking us to crash the plane to replace the engine with a cardboard box that says engine on it.
No. We are warning you about the imminent due to the repeated failures of the current engine, and we are getting the in-flight engine replacement procedures ready for when you'll ask us to do it despite the violent opposition of the current crew (who doesn't care if the plane crashes because they have parachutes).

I like your analogy btw.

it never worked anywhere, why should it work in west?

I think people here have an oversimplified understanding of how communism occurred. For example, the holodomor. The ussr was exporting grain to germany and other european countries in exchange for industrial technology, the nkvd in the likes just did not give a shit if they murdered millions to acheive that, particularly because the kulaks were holdouts to centralization of state power. In other word's the failures of the ussr were motivated by political calculations more than the typical kneejerk reaction of freemarket people would claim. You can sorta see this with other things too. Like the secret police would round up the smartest people in an area, and they would butcher them, like at katyn. So predictably, the overall quality of a population goes down and there's no one competent to do anything.

You shouldn't like the analogy because the point is that there is no such thing as an in flight engine change procedure. If you want communism, you need to crash the plane (civil war/ partial societal collapse/ large death toll) to install it. Thinking you can do it without crashing the plane only puts weight behind the idea that you have absolutely no grasp of what you are asking us to do or the reality of doing it.

>it really has never been tried to it's full extent before

every single fucking time

My bad, the way I understood the analogy, crash was humanity's extinction, not mere civil war.

Well then: crash is inevitable because the current engine is flawed. You may wanna change engine next time we hit the ground.

>you cant just magically price resources jfc
No magic in it. I sell what I produce as expensive as people will buy it in order to maximise profit. Don't you?

>For example, the holodomor
Many peasants chose to slaughter their livestock rather than give them to collective farms. In the first two months of 1930, peasants killed millions of cattle, horses, pigs, sheep, and goats, with the meat and hides being consumed and bartered. For instance, the Soviet Party Congress reported in 1934 that 26.6 million head of cattle had been lost, and 63.4 million sheep
Kulags deserved it, they were punished appropriately, they could of chosen to hand them over and be feed but they choose to be greedy kikes. Also without that grain being sold the USSR never would of industrialized and Nazi Germany would of won the war
> Like the secret police would round up the smartest people in an area, and they would butcher them, like at katyn
Katyn was mostly the Polish officer corps and people who would pose a threat to the USSR, they didn't just round up random civilians unlike a certain other nation next door to it

>Many peasants chose to slaughter their livestock rather than give them to collective farms
And what is wrong with that?

>Katyn was mostly the Polish officer corps and people who would pose a threat to the USSR, they didn't just round up random civilians unlike a certain other nation next door to it
Reminder that in the days of mandatory conscription and total mobilizations every white and blue collar = officer. Don't project your modern mercenary cutthroats armies to the WWII times

>they didn't just round up random civilians unlike a certain other nation next door to it
Fun fact: only Katyn genocide had actual proofs lol.

The Baltics were the most "western" part of NE Europe during the interwar period, and look what is has done to us - the very same thing it did to all others: degradation & stagnation.

>only Katyn genocide had actual proofs
What about operations Osen & Priboi? Those are backed by Soviet documents too.

What book is that from?

They were just """"deportations"""" Soviet deportations were harsh but nevertheless were tier below straight up executions.

>And what is wrong with that?
Go against current government laws get punished
wow how was i meant to know i got punished for committing crimes
>Reminder that in the days of mandatory conscription and total mobilizations every white and blue collar = officer. Don't project your modern mercenary cutthroats armies to the WWII times
officer crops were mainly higher ranking or educated poles who were in the army before they got attacked, literally any other nation would of done the same thing. It's complaining about how America locked up Jap families if these families posed a big risk and the government was already on risky ground with invaders just waiting to kill you off. I bet the Germans also fucked over french and Czech army officers and the allies did the same thing back when they conquered Germany.
>Fun fact: only Katyn genocide had actual proofs lol.
They still didin't round up poles because they were poles unlike Germans. If you followed the system like most people did your fine. If your a retard and standing on the street corners shout muh money muh independence reeeeee then yeah your gonna get hit

>Go against current government laws get punished
>your slivestock is mine now ths is the law
>*expects proper delivery of stock*
Why are commies such a failure in economic planing?


>officer crops were mainly higher ranking or educated poles who were in the army before they got attacked, literally any other nation would of done the same thing.
You again project modern days standing merc armies to totals mobilization when 90% of the army are reserve ranks. Pro tip: these mobilized division officer corps are from reserve too, only HQ would be active services officers, or often not even that.

> locked up = executions
hello commie

>unlike Germans
A typical commie argument that holds no water.
Be thanful to whatever god you believe in that you have never experienced communism yourself.

BTW commies themselves knew that Katyn was dirty, prohibited, abominable thing that has no justification and therefore need to be done in total secrecy and hide like commie's most dirty laundry.

Unlike concentration camps for Japs, which were harsh had criticized nevertheless were done in the open as can be justified under martial law.

>I bet the Germans also fucked over french and Czech army officers and the allies did the same thing back when they conquered Germany.
So, you know shit, but still try debate things

>If you followed the system like most people did your fine.
Until the system decided it will fuck you in the ass, because that was the bleak reality of living in totalitarian state

>to it's full extent before
kys, memelord

This

>your slivestock is mine now ths is the law
>*expects proper delivery of stock*
Your livestock is now property of the community, hand them over so we may all equally share the bounty instead of just you because you got rich in some laws the tzar was forced to pass.
No reeeeeeee we're not even gonna sell them we're going to kill 63.4 million sheep and 26.6 million cows, make huge profits off it then barter and eat the rest full well knowing Russia has been subject to famines for a long time

Noo don't hurt me pls, how was i meant to know i couldn't keep being a capitalist under communism?!?
Sounds like niggers. How was I meant to know selling that cocaine was gonna land my ass in prison. fuckin whitey oppressing me n shiet
>Why are commies such a failure in economic planing?
Why are nationalists such shitty economic planning, we should all embrace globalism cause more money always = better. wtf i love cheap immigration now
>You again project modern days standing merc armies to totals mobilization when 90% of the army are reserve ranks. Pro tip: these mobilized division officer corps are from reserve too, only HQ would be active services officers, or often not even that.
Even then they still asked for, if they let them all go they would form guerilla squads or oppose the regime. It's a no brainer they had to die. That's the world for you, prisoners of losing nations always had to be slaughtered in huge numbers sometimes if they were a threat
So did Germans round up Jews,slavs,gypsies cause all of them 100% were traitors, or did they do it cause reeeeeeeee jews

No i do know. The allies set up German army death camps since they couldn't feed them all, so they classified POW's as something else so they could legally let them die
>Until the system decided it will fuck you in the ass, because that was the bleak reality of living in totalitarian state
Maybe don't be a traitorous retard then

>as a producer I set the price

No you don't. You may try to sell a banana for 100 dollars, but there are people selling for much less, so you won't be able to. That's called supply and demand and it is how some chink knew you needed a computer to ship it all across the world to your room.

Communism only works inside a family unit and even then people are still reluctant about sharing things

>so we may all equally share the bounty
You mean "dictatorish proletariat will eat you pigs when you die from hunger?" equal bounty? Commies outsmarted themselves. BTW they did it again in 1931 with livestock and fruit tree tax that finished private agriculture production.

>The allies set up German army death camps since they couldn't feed them all
Dude, Allies shipped Germans POW's to Canada where they worked on farms.
Wtf are you talking about.

>Maybe don't be a traitorous retard then
How do you do this, when your state decides it simply wants to kill you, just because, for example, you like to collect foreign post stamps?