One thing I can never understand about the alt-right is how they call themselves "defenders of the western values" when...

One thing I can never understand about the alt-right is how they call themselves "defenders of the western values" when western values are clearly: social democracy, sexual freedom, civil rights, and all those thing which are well represented in centers of western culture, for example California and northern Europe.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2017_World_Happiness_Report
youtube.com/watch?v=a3AnX_GBWJw
youtube.com/watch?v=z5w9RvyvI44
vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=2158587#post2158587
vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=508998
hooktube.com/watch?v=tL5pAZU8wKA&t=615s
biblebelievers.org.au/jq1.htm
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

I hope you choke on that nigger dick

Not an argument.

Wrong. The degeneracy you speak of, in particular sexual freedom and civil rights, has only existed in the West for the last 50 to 100 years. Coincidentally the same time period in which the West begins to decline.

Yup.

And if we let in everyone who wants to swamp our country without limit, all of that will vanish

>western values
>second mention is "sexual freedom"

step into the gas chamber, you degenerate monkey

Liberalism, feminism, social justice, anti-elitism is something that is inherent to the western culture.
The church was like this in the middle ages, the renaissance, protestant reformation, the revolutionaries, the iluminism, etc...

Don't compare the 50's with the 60's but with the 40's and 30's and so on.

Oh really

>what is ancient greece for 500 points

you know, the place that invented western values.

You are not into western civilization, you are a nazi.

...

"Western values" means the values of Christendom

Yes, and Christ was pretty much a revolutionary.

Western values are free enterprise, small government, and fiscal responsibility. The mountain states are the last bastion of the west.

We gotta get Old Testament in this bitch

A "revolutionary"? what do you mean? A fucking marxist? are you dumb? You are a proud Brazilian, I expect more respect for the Cahtolic Tradition out of you

1.
Leftists don't believe in any of those things
2.
>Sexual Freedom
3.
>Brazil

Wrong. The Greeks only formalised the concept of Democracy, they don't hold the monopoly on Western culture and values otherwise.

Democracy itself is a flawed system that really can only function properly in a homogenous and class less society. Fascism is the future of the white race.

Revolutionary like the Beatles.
Traditionalism is for pagans and muslims. Pope Francis is here to save the Church.

What are you arguing?
You are taking buzzwords and saying times, but I don't know what you want.

How old are you?

I'm saying the user I quoted is wrong.

Nice argument.

You mean you guys don't stand behind the traditional Western value of cum? Think of all the enlightenment thinkers who wrote great works, and all the soldiers in battles of old who died so you could get hot cummies injected into your boipucci. Shameful.

This

nigger what. Christ and logos completed the thought of the Platonists and provided assurance of God to the faith of the pagans. Get read up on your E Michael Jones. Francis is a servant of the globalists. Tradition is sacred.

By huwhites for huwhites.
The western value that served as the foundation for the rest.

Says the fat guy in the basement who watches anime.

The Church was the globalist of the past. Get over it.

Tradition is idolatry.

No you are saying
>These phrases I have chosen are good
>They are related to all of these good events
>You are wrong

If you aren't a troll or shill I'd be down to talk about this, but I can't make heads or tails of what you are trying to get at. It reads like a high schooler trying to recite history class.

Western values as I understand them here in the western US are a respect for liberty, property, mistrust of government, anti elitism, equality of opportunity, Christianity.

"Tradition" is a facet of the Church you dumb nigger. GOd created the nations.

>respect for liberty, property, mistrust of government, anti elitism, equality of opportunity
That's exactly what I'm saying. Are you retarded? I know exactly what I'm talking about when I say all these great events who created the west as we know are essentialy progressists and not traditionalists.

the fundamentals of "western values" were largely those of the enlightenment, with roots in ancient greece/rome. The idea that the church was the center of culture, laws, ideas, and 'science' was replaced with thinking centered around philosophy, scientific method, and a 'democratic' political/legal system, with christian-inspired human rights ideals, all stemming from the application of 'rational thought'.

Interestingly enough, the catholic church had a lot to do with the shift into these so called western values. They were involved in creating universities and contributed heavily in science/philosophy throughout the middle ages and into the renaissance.

You can say what you want about degeneracy and ancient greece and so forth, but no one refers these things as "western values". It's more just a byproduct of free thought and individual freedom. Some people are animals, who would've thought. You can also make a fair argument that while christianity helped usher in western values not only in knowledge, but in limiting old barbaric practices not in line with christian values nor the the values of the rational thought centered modern notion of human rights, equality, etc.. But now that the rational side has gotten 'too smart' for religion and it has been largely marginalized in the us/west europe, this is the likely culprit of the rise in degeneracy.

That plus a whole lot of other societal evolutions such as: life has always been a struggle for survival.. up until a hundred years ago. Now we live in a fantasy world of abstraction away from normal human struggles. People's problems (in the west) now have nothing to do with anything important, it's just about social media nonsense, tv nonsense, job nonsense, outrage-of-the-month nonsense, pandering, any interruption in modern convenience is the end of the world. Society is a lot different mentally compared to when it used to be sleep, find/hunt food, eat, reproduce, die. Lot more time for degeneracy.

You're calling western all of those things that make the west closer to pagan (rome and greece are pre-west) or islamic cultures (university, rationalism, etc...).

You are seeing the surface of the phenomenon.

>California
>Northern Europe

Oh, sure, the great Mississipi or Michigan the center of american culture.

>get btfo
>now your strawman is somehow "inherent" when shown to be false
okay sweetie you can stop posting now

Christianity is what keeps us from being savages.

You can claim all you want that sexual liberation and the destruction of the family unit is part of "western values"

but that doesn't change the fact that these freedoms were born off the hegemony of western nations which ultimately lead to a disillusionment with real struggle. These aren't great freedoms, these are hedonistic luxuries afforded to those without real suffering who will never fight for their life or be forced to better themselves. The entire problem with the west is that people are way too comfortable with their lives and can be used like cannon fodder without realizing it, or what you would consider a great western value like "democracy"

I think conservatives are savages.

The west, at least as I've seen it termed, encompasses the set of ideas coming from greece/roman empire, through to european culture toward modern day. To say the church didn't have significant impact during that whole time is a bit disingenous, even though there were large pagan populations as well. As I alluded to, the church (jesus love thy neighbor type) was part of the idea behind human rights as they pushed to eliminate common pagan practices of slavery and human sacrifice and other cruelties. Im not saying pagans had no influence on western values by any means, but as time went by, the catholic church drove a lot of these ideals to the forefront, which evolved alongside the rest of the western values, and the pagans were mostly converted/killed (i know, hypocritical).
Also, a lot of these islamic countries produced a lot of knowledge at a time when they were still christian, although certainly not all of it. I'm arab myself, I'm definitely not trying to diminish their contributions to math, astrology, etc.

this is a much better way of saying what I was trying to say in part, here

I don't disagree, but I just think you lost the revolutionary factor, which is important and I say the true heart of western and christian culture and was present even in the reinterpretation of ancient cultures and philosophy/science.

You're mistaken huebro. We tolerate these things because we can and they're outside the norm of social standing. We don't value or support them. You've mistaken tolerance for endorsement.

you do realize that people with opposing viewpoints believe those things because they think the outcome is better for everyone, and they think you're ideas are poorly implemented and will lead to the opposite outcome you're hoping for.. right?

I see too much of people bitching about the other side wanting things that are bad for people, so they must be monsters.

I just want people to remember, that everyone largely wants the same thing, they just disagree on which ways will achieve it the best. the other side doesn't think their ideas have the poor outcome that you think they will have, so that's why they believe those ideas. no one supports something they think will make peoples lives worse. It's ok to disagree on the outcomes of an idea, but too often people argue about why the opposite viewpoint is so mean spirited, when they just can't see why the other side thinks that way.

For instance, I despise socialism/statism in all its forms, because I believe it creates a mess for everyone. But I don't think socialists are evil and are trying to ruin society, because obviously they think they are fixing society, the same way they think my side is in fact ruining society.

>you do realize that people with opposing viewpoints believe those things because they think the outcome is better for everyone
Americans are so naive, Jesus.
That's why Russia is going to fuck your entire democracy.

maybe i misinterpreted your original reply. I would agree about the revolution being a big part of it, meaning the revolution of the masses against the central authority/church if that's what you're saying.

this part, I don't know what you mean. I just get tired of, generally speaking, both sides of politics hating the other side because they have the wrong assumptions. like liberals want to punish the rich, they don't, they just want equality for everyone and redistribution of wealth in many cases. Or conservatives hate poor people, they don't, they think their ideas would help poor people, it's just that their opponents disagree.

You're both wrong

>meaning the revolution of the masses against the central authority/church if that's what you're saying
Not really.
The revolutionary ideas always begin within the elites (I call elites the masters of the culture: artists, great musicians, writers, philosophers, etc...). But I agree with the fact that these people represent somewhat the popular imaginary in the best way possible.

>this part, I don't know what you mean
I'm just saying most people always have personal interests and they don't mind fucking other people to achieve them.

If you have too much freedom it will lead to degeneracy which will eat away at your civilization until it collapses.

fair enough.
as far as the op goes, though, the 'alt-right' generally does support the things you listed. They see it being threatened by the abolition of christian values, if not the religion itself, and mass import of people who culturally despise those values. it's kind of difficult to have human rights, and representative gov't when tons of people just want to chimp out, get gibs, and actively resist the very western values that make their lives possible in the west.
If you really want to say the church was a symptom rather than the cause, you have few places left to go besides race/culture..which leads you toward 'alt-right' type thinking. the masters of culture, as you said, where largely white western european.
are you sure you're not 10% of the way down the path to 1488 and you just haven't realized it yet?

what a boot licker

I particularly see the alt-right as a whole russian fabrication to destabilize western democracy.
A quick look on this board and you can imagine russian elites are pretty happy about all of this.

I am a liberal catholic, so as I said I'm much more with the pope. There's a problem in the church and that problem is traditionalism which for me is islam in disguise.

You're not wrong. "So open-minded your brains fall out" is a thing. At some point you have to draw lines to protect the (largely) open society you wish to uphold and is the consensus of the governed.

>the same time period in which the West begins to decline
What makes you think the West is declining?

Just because someone claims something doesn't mean it's right.

The alt-right is just a buzzword for fascists, they can pretend they are pro-Western all they want, but ultimately they go against what makes the West great.

If you're extremely long and HODLing on Westerncoin, you'll see gains, but it's dumb to ignore the 10y chart.

t. /biz/

>Liberalism, feminism, social justice, anti-elitism is something that is inherent to the western culture.
Europe was mostly traditionalist absolute monarchies only 100 years ago.

the term is more a buzzword created by the media to loosely label a diverse section of right leaning but anti establishment people, some fascists, many libertarian and anarchy leaning people as well.

I'm not sure about the russian angle. A strong nationalist movement, though it may seek an alliance with russia due to similar christian white heritage, wouldn't be in line to do their bidding, as nationalism implies home country first, everyone else second. If anything, western democracy as it currently stands has been doing a fine job of dismantling itself the past century. I also think you overestimate russian ablity to stoke the global wave of nationalism that has risen. it's not like a small localized color revolution like the us loves to stir up in foreign countries.

There were a lot of IMplicit things that made the West able to be great that were based on collective cultural sensibilities, which have largely now been destroyed. The EXplicit things [laws] that were written at the time only had some failsafes for societal failures. They couldn't conceive of for example, the abject failure of the concept of "shame".

The alt-right is absolutely pro-Western, in both historically implicit and explicit capacities.

Since you said 10y chart, I assume you mean the 2008 recession. Barely a blip on the radar. We're long past that now and still climbing.

I do however, find your position very interesting and unique, and think that we have more in agreement than i would have initially thought, and you seem like a rational user, so I have enjoyed the discussion.

What you listed, are those western values from 0 A.D. to ~1900's or are those western values from ~1900's to now. because the values the west had early on weren't those, those are (((Western Values)))).

It was a flippant marker to suggest to "look athe longer trend". Show me a chart on western countries' happiness, white [or at least 3+generation citizen] birthrates vs the rest of the world, cash outlay to 3rd world shitholes, money wasted on jew wars, money wasted on welfare for immigrants, etc.

We [the West] could be a lot better off if we focused on supporting our own people/citizens as of the folks that were here 2 generations ago+. The fact that those people are not thriving and the fact that those that are productive are subsidizing the African/Asian/South American hordes is at least 4 big red fucking candles on the West in general on a 10y chart.

Those are not western values, you have been brainwashed.

Examples of what I believe to be western values are Self Determination, Dignity, Honor, and Strength.

Another thread fool of proof that filthy Brazilians are just the tiniest step up in intelligence from the average sea urchin

hey now, leave my brazil buddy alone, we're trying to make western civilization great again :)

You are confusing the people that call themselves progressive as actual progressives, though.

The people that hold "progressive values" warship the State like an institutionalized religion. They are fanatical and believe in collectivism and societal determinism rather than individual free will.

You are engaging in historical revisionism.

And this means we should let in undocumented scores of immigrants, allow culture to be erased by racists who say we are "culturally appropriating" their crap whilst straightening and dying their hair, we should allow censorship of free speech because people consider criticism of Islam a hate crime and we should allow social degeneracy that is statistically shown to be harmful with homosexuality and promotion of non existent genders?

Western values are against all this. What you want is for opposing views to be censored, a police state that supresses views, individual rights to be taken away, pseudoscience to prevail because of "muh feelings" and people to be imprisoned for freedom of speech.

The West is built on Christianity, free speech, a understanding of morality and also science. It's built on valuing someone for the content of their character.

"Progressives" are trying to get rid of those values and replace them with pseudoscience and identity politics. That is harmful especially when you're forcing it onto kids.

Immigration should be welcomed but only if they can work (western countries have enough of their own unemployed), if certain sectors need it and if they can integrate with our culture.

Homosexuality and transgenderism should be the choice of an individual, not an agenda, not something people should be persecuted for refusing to accept.

Sexual freedom is a personal choice that should be private. We shouldn't have public ads like "Squirt" positively encouraging an already dangerous group with statistically higher diseases than any other to continue unsafe sex. Decriminalizing the deliberate spread of HIV is not "progressive" not moral and certainly not logical.

No user, what you want is a totalitarian liberal hellhole where everyone opposed to your views is censored or imprisoned.

The Right, not the left, stand for true freedom but we also believe in social order, science and freedom of speech.

The top 20 happiest countries in the world are in "the West." The first non-western country on the list is UAE at #21.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Happiness_Report#2017_World_Happiness_Report

You're not even in this fucking country

I've traveled all over and I can tell you that rural Mississippi and Michigan are more related in terms of American (classical liberal) principles than California

Also San Francisco and Sacramento are not California. Western Cali is far different than the coast

>social democracy, sexual freedom, civil rights, and all those thing which are well represented in centers of western culture, for example California and northern Europe.

Stupid sub-human piece of shit

You don't know nothing about WEST

Real Californian Vote Nixon and Reagan

Yep, Nixon and Reagan home state is California

All the Western industry build up by White nationalist

Not a Degenerate bolsa familia Fucker like you

Adenauer's West Germany , de Gaulle's France , eisenhower's America , Yoshida Shigeru's Japan

It's Great Leader and homogeneous societies that actually achieve something

And They are all racist , Anti-sexual liberation , nationalist

Now Fuck off, Brazil is Hellhole and brazilian are fucking genetic failure

Bingo was his namo. OP has confirmed(as if there was any doubt) that he is a faggot.

>1968 Ex-SS lieutenant appointed south africa ambassador by West Germany

>social democracy
Nope.
>sexual freedom
Lmao
>civil rights
You don't stand for civil rights either. Quit making me pay for your bullshit.
Also Cali is a shithole, pic related

They are ancient for a reason, user.

>world population
Hm...

Pope Francis is a commie.

youtube.com/watch?v=a3AnX_GBWJw

>Tradition is idolatry.

So Peter was an idolator ?
2 Thessalonians 2:15
So then, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye were taught, whether by word, or by epistle of ours.

1 Corinthians 11:2
2 Now I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I delivered them to you.

youtube.com/watch?v=z5w9RvyvI44

>Get read up on your E Michael Jones. Francis is a servant of the globalists. Tradition is sacred.

Amen Ave Maria

vnnforum.com/showthread.php?p=2158587#post2158587

vnnforum.com/showthread.php?t=508998

E Michael Jones on Jewish Influence from Calvary To Trump
hooktube.com/watch?v=tL5pAZU8wKA&t=615s

La Civiltà Cattolica, Series XIV, Vol. VII, Fascicule 961, 23 October 1890
On the Jewish Question in Europe (1890)
biblebelievers.org.au/jq1.htm