Were Greeks worthy of our admiration?

I'm feeling conflicted, Sup Forums. I see people using Greek and Roman statues and art in memes, as if the ancients represented a standard of European purity to which we should strive to return. On the other hand, in (((college))) I'm learning about the ancients' immense degeneracy: the Greeks embraced pederasty and prostitution, while the Romans invented more debauchery and degeneracy than any modern kikery could imagine. Is the idea of classical civilization just a meme? Were they no better than kikes?

Other urls found in this thread:

scribd.com/document/247229749/Homosexuality-in-Ancient-Greece-The-Myth-is-Collapsing-by-Adonis-Georgiades
loebclassics.com/view/solon-fragments/1999/pb_LCL258.147.xml
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solonian_Constitution
nytimes.com/1993/02/27/opinion/l-plato-on-homosexuality-238493.html
gutenberg.org/files/1497/1497-h/1497-h.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes
youtube.com/watch?v=FsaieZt5vjk
twitter.com/NSFWRedditImage

They're worthy of your admiration

>Is the idea of classical civilization just a meme?
Yes. The true redpill is that rural England during the Edwardian Era was the apex of human civilization.

Why? What did they ever do to earn the respect of modern man? They spent their days consumed by lust for little boys and trying to sell people lessons in virtue for exorbitant prices, just like Jews.

Degeneracy is present in all societies.

At least Greco-Romans took civic piety seriously (until the end).

That actually makes some sense. Victorian England might be another candidate, or America during the nineteenth century. At least some time in which pederasty would be a shocking crime rather than a hobby.

This picture should be captioned:

"OP is such a faggot he cannot stop sucking dicks even while getting fucked in the ass".

The ancient Greeks (not all of them) actually talk the Jews to be more degenerate.

Look into the history of the Macabees.

Fuck off

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pederasty is a perfectly heterosexual component of a patriarchal society

The Greeks and Romans went through the same empire cycle as every civilization-- the same one we're going through now.

There were absolutely degenerate greeks and romans: they were the rich wealthy cosmopolitan elites, and they were completely our of touch with the average people. The degenerates you are studying are basically the people who live in Hollywood, and only during the final phase of their civilization before and during their fall.

It doesn't represent all of their society at all.

Degeneracy is not institutionalized in all societies.
We have gymnasia to give us a place to lift and improve ourselves, to become better men. The Greeks had gymnasia to give them a place to wrestle naked, slathered with olive oil, with younger boys with whom they would later have sex.
The Greeks not only legalized prostitution but even seem to have set prices for the lower end of it, to ensure that all the working cucks could afford to rent a whore once in a while.
The Greeks institutionalized degeneracy.

>I'm learning about the ancients' immense degeneracy: the Greeks embraced pederasty and prostitution


scribd.com/document/247229749/Homosexuality-in-Ancient-Greece-The-Myth-is-Collapsing-by-Adonis-Georgiades

Educate yourself. Greeks were not degenerate.

This is what Richard Spencer wants america to become, gayness is part of white culture stormfags btfo.

Only it wasn't a cycle for the Greeks: it was constant. You see pederasty in Greek literature even in archaic sympotic poetry. It was always there.

The Greek Civilization and Christianity are the 2 pillars of European thought, take that as you will.

>Greeks were not degenerate.
loebclassics.com/view/solon-fragments/1999/pb_LCL258.147.xml
>You did well, he said, to mention Solon, and we ought to use him as an index of the erotic man:
>"until (so long as?) one falls in love with a boy in the lovely flower of youth, desiring thighs and a sweet mouth."
The ancient Greeks seem to disagree with the self-published modern Greek revisionists on that count. The primary sources are full of pederasty.

Making blanket statements about either the Greek or Roman world like that is silly.
Sure, we think their sexuality was a bit degenerate, but when it comes to every other virtue that westerners claim they beat the shit out of us.
So yeah they deserve admiration.

Read the book I linked. All of that is proven wrong.

Also using poets and playwrights as "proof" of degeneracy across the population is fucking retarded. Do you think Weinstein is a good representative of all Americans? The arts often attract the degenerates.

Which virtues? The Greek city states before Alexander never managed to accomplish much because they were constantly fighting one another: they had no racial or ethnic solidarity. The best men of the Athenians were consistently ostracized, exiled, or executed by the envious democracy: there was no civic solidarity. The Athenians were ruled by their poor, who kept voting gibs for themselves. The Spartans seem a bit better, but it's hard to tell if what we know about them isn't just an invention of a few oligarchically-minded Athenians who were generating meme propaganda about the Spartans.
What virtues did the ancient Greeks have that we should emulate?

>Solon
>poet and playwright
>not representative
You know how I know you don't know what you're talking about? Solon was the lawgiver of Athens: he wrote some poems on the side, but he also was the founder of their constitution and set up their laws and customs.

You can't see the greeks fucking man ass and thinking of pic related
I actuality the greeks were so disgusted of women that they preferred to have pleasure sex with men, but that does not mean that they were effeminate. For the Romans the manliest thing you could to is have another man give you a blowjob, while the most effeminate thing you could do was to give a woman oral sex

And yet your proof was an exert from a poem.

keep in mind that shitskin american education is different.

The Athenian constitution was a poem too. You should read up on it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solonian_Constitution

greeks were gay democrats

greek and rome are the proof that no society can last much longer

greece*

>Late period Greece is exactly how Greece has always been
Greece only started doing degenerate shit near the end of their empire, just like every empire before or since them. Treat empire like an old man with dementia. When you think of him, think of him as he was in the prime of his life, not the state he is in now. This is not to say there is no value in studying the collapse of empire, far from it, but when we idealize Greece we are thinking of it at it's height rather than its fall.

Every society had flawes. The ancient Greeks are admired for their many cultural achievements.

>Greece
>Empire
The Greeks were a handful of independent cities more interested in fighting each other than forming an empire, which is why they never did until the Macedonians conquered them. There never was a Greek empire. The Athenians had a thalassocracy going in many of the Greek islands, but they were fighting the Spartans at the time.
Greece at its height was degenerate and divided. There was no racial or national unity. Even when they fought the Persians there was little unity: the Thebans defected to the Medes.

Tell me about the rural englishmen during that era.

>On the other hand, in (((college))) I'm learning about the ancients' immense degeneracy
>taking in their (((history))) at face value
This history largely falsified and based on a few degenerate murals (i.e. cherry-picking) and is a prime example of Jewish interests rewriting history to fit their own modern agenda. As the saying goes "he who controls the past, controls the present".
These murals are in actuality quite rare and certainly would have never been found in public.

In reality, Ancient Greece and Rome both initially had strict sexual standards and shamed licentiousness.
Plato and Aristotle suggested that sex be practiced in moderation and only between man and wife. Plato insisted that sodomy was "unnatural".
Pythagoras, perhaps the greatest man to ever live, was continent (entirely abstained from both sex and masturbation) most of his life and urged his students to do the same.

They established the sexual purity upon which was a major influence on the apostle Paul. He was inspired by Greco-Roman morals, especially the restraint between man and wife.
Outside of marriage, nearly anything was permitted under Judaic sexual freedom so long as they were not "breaking the rules".
Paul in contrast does not have a legalistic approach in his writings and is reminiscent of Epimenides and Stoic philosophers.

Greco-Roman people during their heights both respectively had extremely high standards for sexual conduct and shamed disgusting behavior. Promiscuous woman were ostracized.

Read Gibbons, not Goldstein.

>the Greeks embraced pederasty
It was never "embraced" and occurred only in Athens and it was regarded by most as disgusting. The so called "Tyrants", popular mob leaders, actually campaigned on ridding it.
>Romans invented more debauchery
Only the upper classes during the decline. In fact, it was so bad that people looked at barbarians as "without question, as their moral superiors".

You wot m8, that's like saying Weinstein represents every modern American. This kind of shit was practiced by the rich and the elite, just like today. You're talking about the people that went to war over a woman and managed to be some of the first colonial people. You can't be colonial or imperialistic without numbers and if everyone was fucking each other in the ass Greece and Rome would have had a non-existent birth rate

These

>hurr durr macedonians # greeks

t. skopje diaspora

>the Greeks embraced pederasty and prostitution,
Jesus what make people think that few porn images on fucking pots is enough to actually fucking label a whole ancient culture as "embracing pederasty and prostitution"?
>while the Romans invented more debauchery and degeneracy than any modern kikery could imagine.
Duh and you know about it probably from nioghraphy of Kaligula or Neron. Do you even realise that there was a giant society that actually knew about manners, decency and culture? Wtf do you think they were at orgies on every birthday or what?
By that logic all the societies should be marked as equally degenerate.

>which virtues

slavery

>Greece
>Empire
American education everyone

>Plato and Aristotle suggested that sex be practiced in moderation and only between man and wife. Plato insisted that sodomy was "unnatural".
Someone's never read Plato's Symposium. The whole thing is a series of speeches in praise of pederasty, given at a dinner at the instigation of a man and his younger male lover, who also happens to try to seduce Socrates in another dialogue, the Phaedrus. The first half of the Phaedrus consists of speeches on either side of the question of whether a boy should give sexual favors to a man who does not consider himself the boy's regular lover but rather just a random fling.
I'm not reading Gibbons or Goldstein, but Plato.

already the ancient greeks knew that women are no good

It's like someone from China seeing an individual porn magazine and believing that every single woman in the U.S. likes getting gangbanged by niggers in her asshole.

Dude, they were degenerate. Their epics were degenerate and their false Gods were degenerate. Only God of Abraham isn't degenerate and gave grave punishments for homosexuality.

Reminder

Christianity started the whole "fuck homosexuality" thing when it was natiral and normal. Christianity cucked Europe, and being non-religious is a good thing.

If you're American, your forefathers of the 18th and early 19th century loathed religion. Founding fathers hated the preachers.

>By that logic all the societies should be marked as equally degenerate.
Not at all. There are societies that are more worthy of admiration. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned Edwardian England. I'm suggesting that Greece and Rome were not the moral exemplars that some people here make them out to be, and that we should look to better cultures like Britain (pre-cucking) for our models. Doesn't Russia have periods of grace, elegance, and morality that would serve better as an aesthetic and moral background for right-wing political beliefs than the pederastic democracy of Athens?

There's a difference between pederasty and pedophilia. That's why people don't go to jail for continuing to fuck their seventeen year old girlfriend after they turn 18 while still in high school.

I'm pretty sure these pieces are just propaganda made by Persia to make their enemies seem like fags in the future.

Every country has made propaganda about others, why would it be any different in ancient times? This just seems like a really good way to shitpost about your enemy 3k years ago.

>You broke muh Jew Temple in 70AD
>You must be gay
Hello Sir Shlomo III from Nottingham, (((England))). Jews and Anglos sitting in a tree, K. I . S. S. I. N. G.

ya

that guy in op is really fucking balls deep in the other guy and even is holding him violently

Plato was not advocating it. Some could even construe what was said as mocking the speakers.
There is debate about the actual attitudes or beliefs espoused in Symposium and most scholars rank it is a second-rate assesement of Plato compared to the more direct works of his such as his Republic and Laws.

Once again, Professor Swartz seems to be cherry picking for a reason.

Well...

They were probably having gay sex in that jewish temple anyway trying to appease demon spirits or some gay shit. Jews are so fucking gay.

hahahaha good post

fpbp, start sucking dicks

What is the context of this degenerate depiction though. Perhaps they were warning against such activities.

>Plato
>Republic
“…a man skilled in love ought hardly to be unaware that all boys of the right age have the capacity to provoke passion in the expert boy-lover, and to seem worthy of being embraced and cherished…”
Plato, Republic 474d

If you say so, Giorgos

There are lots of pots and drinking vessels with pictures of pederasty. It's decorative, not monitory. Pic related is a 6th century (archaic period, pre-classical) vase.

>Only God of Abraham isn't degenerate and gave grave punishments for homosexuality.

How magical that all the "sources" of Antiquity Degeneracy doesn't come from contemporary sources but from post-christianity "scholars" and "historians" who totally know exactly how shit went down in Ancient Greece and Rome. And it was way worst than how it currently is under Christian rule, just trust us.

>How magical that all the "sources" of Antiquity Degeneracy doesn't come from contemporary sources
Dude, I've been quoting Plato throughout this thread. You could go look at Herodotus if you like, or any number of ancient primary sources. You can learn Greek and read them in Greek. You're going to get the same answer: the Greeks were degenerate. We should be looking to other cultures instead of to Greece for our moral inspiration.

Republic is a dialogue....

It also says this:
""
(Socrates:) Do you know of greater or keener pleasure than that associated with Aphrodite?

(Glaucon:) I don't, he said, nor yet of any more insane.

S: But is not the right love a sober and harmonious love of the orderly and the beautiful?

G: It is indeed, said he.

S: Then nothing of madness, nothing akin to license, must be allowed to come nigh the right love?

G: No.

S: Then this kind of pleasure may not come nigh, nor may lover and beloved who rightly love and are loved have anything to do with it?

G: No, by heaven, Socrates, he said, it must not come nigh them.

S: Thus, then, as it seems, you will lay down the law in the city that we are founding, that the lover may kiss and pass the time with and touch the beloved as a father would a son, for honorable ends, if he persuade him. But otherwise he must so associate with the objects of his care that there should never be any suspicion of anything further, on penalty of being stigmatized for want of taste and true musical culture.

G: Even so, he said.

S: Do you not agree, then, that our discourse on music has come to an end? It has certainly made a fitting end, for surely the end and consummation of culture is the love of the beautiful."
(Republic III 403a-c).

nytimes.com/1993/02/27/opinion/l-plato-on-homosexuality-238493.html
(from an angry reader, in response to misinformation spread by the editor).

>There are lots of pots and drinking vessels with pictures of pederasty


>Now, the truth is that according to my
generous calculations, no more than 30 out of 600 vases have a homosexual scene.The other 570 are totally irrelevant.

From scribd.com/document/247229749/Homosexuality-in-Ancient-Greece-The-Myth-is-Collapsing-by-Adonis-Georgiades

Starting at page 99, the "Vases" section.

Like I said, hear it from the horses' mouth. Read tales about their false gods and how their false gods acted.

The part I quoted was Socrates talking with Glaucon about real life in Athens; yours is from the bulk of the Republic, where he imagines a fictional city. But, sure, let's run with that and see what kind of degenerate proposals he has for families:
>“women, all of them, should belong in common [457d] to all these men, and that none of the women should cohabit exclusively with any one man; the children, too, should be held in common, so that neither will any father know his own offspring, nor any child his father.” (Plato, Republic 457c–d)
Communism of wives, the dissolution of the family: is that a morality we should admire?

I do know that at the beginning of Meditations, Aurelius praises his father (iirc) for not engaging in boy love. Which gives me the sense that in his time, it was frowned upon, but not uncommon.

When looking at Greece and Roman pederasty. You have to remember you are getting the viewpoint of the rich ruling elite. Perhaps no more than the top 5% of society at the time. Who knows what the other 95% thought of it. Indeed it would seem historically that Homosexual pederasty is the past-time of a small ruling elite. Which would make sense because pederasty is about power.

sex with youths was illegal in Sparta and elsewhere. The sort of thing being discussed here was the hobby of Thebans, the worst of all the Hellenes.

Source: Plato's Symposium. Xenophon's Constitution of the Lakedaimonians. Cicero also mentions it being illegal in Sparta, but he's writing centuries later.

there is a forgotten term "platonic" love .
This is to love the idea of something,not the flesh.

by means of great shilling by kikewood the sophisticated word got lost to all kinds of cuckoldry .
Victorian age would see a return of "platonic love" since people were mentally capable .

it is easy to forget that there was quite a sophistication in place before our current debauchery in the west .

comparing the Decline of antiquity with their classical age is like looking at sand nigger UK now and saying they have zero military traditions.

>THE REPUBLIC By Plato
gutenberg.org/files/1497/1497-h/1497-h.htm

Nice fake quote you retarded kike nigger.

underrated

It is just over the top exaggeration by (((them))) and the trannie lobby. If you want to really know what was the deal with degenerate behaviour in ancient Greece you should read LAWS by Plato. There you will see (at least for the city of Athens, but sicne the trannies try to use them as an example it works) that being gay or kίναιδος openly would:
Αν τις Αθηναίος εταιρήση, με έξεστω αυτω των εννέα αρχόντων γενέσθαι, μηδέ ιερωσύνην ιερώσασθαι, μηδέ συνδιkήσαι τω δήμω, μηδέ αρχήν αρχέτω μηδεμιάν, μήτε ενδημον, μήτε υπερόριον, μήτε kληρωτήν, μήτε χειροτονητήν, μηδέ επιkυρήkειαν αποστελλέσθω, μηδέ γνώμην λεγέτω, μηδέ εις τα δημοτελή ιερά εισίτω, μηδέ εν ταις kοιναίς σταφονοφορίες σταφανούσθω, μηδέ εντός των της αγοράς περιρραντηριων πορευέσθω.
Εάν δε ταύτα τις ποιή,kαταγνωσθέντως αυτού εταιρείν, θανάτω ζημιούσθω.

meaning:
He is not allowed to become a member of the 9 leaders.
* He is not allowed to be elected priest.
* He is not allowed to be the advocate of the people.
* He is not allowed to exercise any power, within or outside the country, a conspirator or a orderer.
* He is not allowed to be sent as war preacher.
* He is not allowed to give his opinion.
* He is not allowed to enter the public churches.
* Not allowed to be crowned in public stefanofories.
* He is not allowed to take part in the walks on the market.
Anyone who has been convicted as a sexual partner, but acts contrary to the law, is punished by death.

And many other sources and penalties it is too much to record right now

You do know that those weren't actual laws?
Not to mention that being gay meant taking it up the ass, everything else was perfectly acceptable by everyone.

see

That is awfully specific. Any examples of stellar conduct?

>pre child labor laws
>overcrowding
>housing shortage
>smog
>worse sanitation than ancient river valley cities
>apex of human civilization
those are some heavily rose tinted glasses you have on

Romans yes greeks no both wer faggots

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I don't get this.

So when the Kings of Labor take over it's all over? So Communism is basically the end result? pls explain

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Sparta was truly best Greece
Those poor Hilotes though

Didn't read lol and yeah the answer is yes of course you fucking nitwit. Seriously, how fucking dumb are you? Faggot bitch.

The Ancient Greeks said you shouldn't teach women to write, as that was like giving poison to an asp. I bet half or more of these shill posters are cunts.

Girls were married at 14 to men twice their age = redpilled.

Not really much else to get into since you noobs don't understand the value of semen and boys anyway.

Even the Romans liked the Spartans,

>Greeks were degenerate
>not worthy of admiration
>forgets what timeline we are in

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It's called peaking and then crashing. When do you think the *majority of the degeneracy occurred?
sage

Mmmh, the Greek get spitroasted by turk and a Macedonian...

But a man/man monogamous relationship was the best desu.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

No. Once the 4th stage happens it restarts and the whole thing happens again and again.

Any sort of serious conservative/traditionalist/reactionary thought is going to have a model of the cyclical version of history. This is the fundamental thing which seperates us from marxists and liberals. Marxists and liberals see history as a straight line, going straight to progress and eventual utopia where everyone is free and there is no oppression yadda yadda. The only main difference between liberals and marxists is that they see history ending at different states. You can lead about Francis Fukuyama "End of History". That explains very well the mindset of the current mindset of the liberal establishment and how they see the world. Marxists/commies see it a bit differently, a classless society free of hierarchy, no war, family is abolished, everyone is free and basically nothing ever goes wrong.

Our version of history isin't like that. It's an eternal cycle of civilizational rise and fall. The tale of brave men, heroic warriors who establish their kingdoms and states, the merchants and philosophers, artists who let it flourish, and the degenerates and low lives which eventually bring it down. There's of course many differences in how different people see this cycle but that's the main point.

Here's a decent video about it. It's a bit dramatic and sentimental but explains the Sup Forums version of history pretty well.

youtube.com/watch?v=FsaieZt5vjk