When properly analyzed as a character, can Griffith really be said to have done anything wrong?

When properly analyzed as a character, can Griffith really be said to have done anything wrong?

Yes.

Yep

>Fuck the princess knowing the consecuences to him and his friends
>Sacrifice all his friends
>Rape his best (girl)friend in front of his best (boy)friend, who is also dating with her
what do you thing

yeah
being a fucking bitch

Given how his body and ambitions had been permanently destroyed, he absolutely did the right thing in sacrificing his mercenaries. Morally it was no different from killing in all those wars he'd fought in.

Not sure if trolling since he does have his defenders but yes. He was scum even before he sacrificed his friends and everything he's done since then is even worse. Even now, he's only "protecting" the people of the world from the monsters he unleashed on them.

Yes

Only objectively acceptable answer.

Although the real question you should be asking is did Guts do anything wrong

Guts do nothing wrong. He served Griffith many years, and only let Griffith when he didn't need him anymore

>He was scum even before he sacrificed his friends and everything he's done since then is even worse
He just was better at the game than everyone else. If that's being scum then I'd love being scum.

Guts was a bitch. He was like thirty and still had teen angst.
He fucked everything just because his best friend was talking shit to get into some bitch panties. Insecure piece of shit, he fucked everything just because.
>Inb4 Griffith was the one that fucked up
Yes, but only because Guts set the things in motion.

nah
he wanted to be considered an equal to griffith, not just follow in his footsteps.
> "It is my perception that a true friend never relies on anothers dream. A person with the potential to be my true friend must be able to find his own reason for life without my help. And he should put his heart and soul into protecting his dream. He would never hesitate to fight for his dream, even against me".
even after saying this, he goes to do fugg with the princess after guts actually leaves him because he is a little hypocritical bitch.
guts did nothing wrong

>Throws a tantrum and fucks a princess

How can anyone defend this. What a retard.

Griffithfags are literally retarded.

>He was like thirty and still had teen angst.
Guts isn't even thirty now. He was 15-18 during the Golden Age arc and he was 20+ when he started as the Black Swordman. I'm not sure what is his official age now but it's probably not even 24.

I don't really care about this discussion, I'm just passing through and would like to point out that Guts' is still in his twenties.

...

Yeah, it was a joke about character designs, a lame joke I know.

>fucks the princess
Its been a while, what happened to her after the golden age anyway?
does griffith has a child?

Guts was 16 or 17 in that scene.

He's about 22 now but looks much older due to the life he's lived.

She's alive and fine, no child.

He did one incredibly wrong thing, and used what that act earned him to remake the world. It meant turning Guts into a monster that would eventually kill him, but even there, part of his plan is going to be lead him into killing off the God Hand. Basically, he became a devil to save the world, and all it cost him was everyone he cared about. I think when his entire plan is laid out clearly people will consider it to be justified, overall, considering how terrible the world of the setting is, and how much better the paradise Griffith made will be compared.

What happened to the griffith trip?
Havent seen him for a year now

you mean hawk?
last i heard he got banned or something

Griffith a bitch and he die like a bitch
You can try to paint him as a martyr, and sure, maybe in a certain way, but Griffith a bitch.

>He did one incredibly wrong thing, and used what that act earned him to remake the world.
Actually, he's done many wrong things. He constantly lied to and manipulated his closest friends even before the eclipse. He also sent troops to kill Flora, who hadn't done anything to him, simply because he recognized her as a threat.

>Basically, he became a devil to save the world
More like enslave the world. He's "saving" them from the monsters he unleashed and "uniting" them as his obedient servants. People don't live in Falconia because they want to, they moved there because they had to given how shitty the world is as a result of Griffith's meddling.

>and all it cost him was everyone he cared about.
Again, wrong. When push came to shove, all he ever really cared about was himself and his own vainglorious dream of being the king of the world. He even said so himself on the hill of swords.

>He even said so himself on the hill of swords.
(continued...)

>He's "saving" them from the monsters he unleashed
Except he didn't unleashed anything. Monsters have always existed and he actually saved the world from the Kuushan demons.
He gave mankind the maximum gift, the fantasia. Which is not just monsters, there are good willing creatures too.

Do you blame a lion for eating a zebra?
Griffith was maniufactured by the idea of evil who manipulated his bloodline.
He's a victim, a slave to his nature like an animal.

WROOOOOOOOONG

the count got a chance at a second ascension, and denied it
fate puts you in the position, but it's up to you what you do with it

that event alone proves that just because you got a behelit and summoned the god hand, it doesn't mean fate implores you to accept their deal, it comes down to your decision in the end

Griffith could have said no, he could have said "it's not fair that they all die because I fucked up"

He's saying what he has to say to Guts to make him into the only sort of thing that can kill the God Hand and free the world of their influence. The betrayal has to be total and terrible and impossible to understand, or it can't do what it's meant to do.

>he actually saved the world from the Kuushan demons.
The world was better off with Kushan demons. It's like removing Saddam Hussein from power and having the middle east so destabilized ISIS forms in his place.

>He gave mankind the maximum gift, the fantasia. Which is not just monsters, there are good willing creatures too.
That's surely a great comfort to the people being raped and eaten en masse.

>Do you blame a lion for eating a zebra?
Griffith isn't a lion. People have a tendency to construct really stupid metaphors along the lines of "Hey, lions eat zebras so it's okay for humans to eat babies." when they're backed into a corner and can't argue their way out of a wet paper bag. All you're doing is making an appeal to nature fallacy.

>Griffith was maniufactured by the idea of evil who manipulated his bloodline.
>He's a victim, a slave to his nature like an animal.
You don't even have to believe in free will to label Griffith as evil.

This.

Yes.
He fucked errythang up just because one man refused to bow down to him and instead wanted to become an equal so he could truly be his friend.

Griffith is so obsessed with being at the top he couldn't bear the fact that anyone seriously hoped to meet his standards for friendship. And then when he looks back at how he's utterly fucked himself over, all he can do is blame Guts and kill everyone because lol bridge of corpses. And once he returns, he thinks his past deeds and demonic nature will be overlooked simply because he's using them for his own idea of a "greater good", and ordering a hit on Rickert just for slapping him despite being a former comrade who can't really harm him shows that he will kill anyone who challenges his hugbox kingdom in any way. He's a deranged piece of shit and utterly irredeemable, a "love to hate" kind of character more than anything.

Except his only plan is "muh kingdom", which was only a positive thing when he had humanity. He doesn't anymore. He didn't rape Casca because he was playing chess 200 moves ahead, he was just butthurt.

Besides, if Falconia is so Anor Londo then why didn't Griffith protect Rickert of Vinheim's smile?

If me and him were under the same circumstances I would've sacrificed my group in a heartbeat.

The wrong thing he did was rape Casca, and try to kill Guts for wanting to look for his dream. Hell damn near everything after Guts left him was wrong and wrong.

We know too much of Griffith's innermost thoughts for that to be a valid theory for why he acts as he does. If Griffith were altruistic, his innermost fantasy would be that of a world without the God Hand (or an analog thereof) as opposed to a castle in the sky where he's king of the world.

You're doing this weird thing that fanboys do when they fall in love with a character where you try to rationalize their behavior by ascribing a grandiose vision of a moral end to their means. It's all very adolescent.

I could further illustrate how absurd this is by mapping this onto actors in the real world who did similarly horrible things, e.g., Hitler only did the holocaust to make the Jews stronger and rid the world of Nazism. But I think you get the point.

>Except his only plan is "muh kingdom", which was only a positive thing when he had humanity. He doesn't anymore. He didn't rape Casca because he was playing chess 200 moves ahead, he was just butthurt.
Exactly this. He's a psychopath with an enormous, fragile ego.

>I would've sacrificed my group in a heartbeat.
Found the nigger.

his decisions leading up to that point were all completely retarded for someone who's supposed to be smart though.

He literally got emotional at the wrong time for the wrong reasons, and fucked everything all up with his actions.

Dude really had no alternatives, he couldn't even kill himself. He was a living corpse at that point. I wouldn't live like that, watching my waifu fucking a guy as a lay there tongue-less and etc. He couldn't do a goddamn thing. Hell as a living super demon god I could atleast bring their souls out once in a while and place them within new bodies or something.

>Sacrificing the people who gave their lives for you 24/7
>Sacrificing your best bro,
>The very bro which made your ascension possible in the first place and only wants you to be happy
>The very bro who rescued you from a slow and painful death and would have helped you to get yourself back on our feet
>Sacrificing the closest thing you have to a family, friends and true followers to become a plaything for a group of dimensional assholes

You're absolute, irredimable scum, I'm genuinely disgusted to think people like you exist.

Remember when cripple Griffith tried to rape Casca in a pathetic attempt to reassert his control over her after he already saw she loved Guts?

Well he was and still is a dick but it was not out of character for him, he was ready to sacrifice everyone for his dream only Guts was different because Guts disobeyed him. I guess he never saw Guts as an equal and maybe he didn't want to do this but his whole 'a true friend'-speech fucked up Guts by thinking that he and Griffith are not friends.
At the end i still don't understand his intentions, he wants that castle in the sky because he wants control. He hates it when he can't control the things around him but is his target now just World Domination? Him Eliminating the God Hand and redeeming himself seems out of Character for him, what is his endgame?

By the way Griffith was lead on that path he was set on by the God Hand.. do you think Guts was send on his path by the God Hand to bring Griffith to the point he was meant do be in the condition he was in? Since Guts is such a central figure in Griffiths Path it would make sense. And now Guts backfired on them, something they didn't intend to happen or something. Also weird is that when Griffith transformed he was mad at Guts for leaving but the last time they met he seemed resolved and does not have any anger for him, he is not even trying to stop them.

Also whats his business with Rickert? Why did he let him go? Knowing Griffith he does not seem like a person who threats traitors lightly, so.. what the fuck is going on?

I don't think Griffith ordered the hit on Rickert, it was heavily implied to be Locus (who was so outraged at the slap, that he crushed the stone railing he was holding on to)
or Rakshas himself decided to attack Rickert for the slap with no prodding from anyone else because he's kind of crazy like that

I agree with everything you said, but just doing a correction, because honestly I think Griffith couldn't give enough of a fuck about Rickert to send someone to kill him

>Sacrificing the people who gave their lives for you 24/7

Only when in war, and Griffith lose a 1000+ friends and 1000000 in war already, what more is an extra 30+? What life would you have if you were in the same circumstance? You can't do shit, you can't walk, fuck, enjoy food, fight for your dream, nothing, but watch your waifu Casca probably take you home to feed and bathe you once a while like a retarded child while she fucks Guts next door. The band lost all purpose with no leader and that's likely where you'd end up if they went separate ways. You're too deformed and weak to even kill yourself. Griffith had been sacrificing bodies for his dream for a very very long time.

ok but cool would it be to be incorporeal

like seriously

>He hates it when he can't control the things around him but is his target now just World Domination? Him Eliminating the God Hand and redeeming himself seems out of Character for him, what is his endgame?
I think that upon meeting the idea of evil, his plan from then on was to try and replace the idea of evil with himself

this is why he's gathering people in falconia, he needs the biggest sacrifice ever made in order to reach that point
he might even be willing to sacrifice everyone on earth, and justify it by saying "well when I'm the god I'll make a better earth and make everyone happy"

and I think this is why Miura has had the idea of evil removed from volumes, because it gives away Griffith's grand plan too early
without that chapter, I wouldn't have thought of any of this, and would have just assumed Griffith is being evil for the lulz and for the control

>would have helped you to get yourself back on our feet

Once your achilles tendons been snipped you can't walk again

I guess the only hard decision he had to make is sacrificing Guts.

Do you think he was kinda glad he survived?

>Remember when cripple Griffith tried to rape Casca in a pathetic attempt to reassert his control over her after he already saw she loved Guts?
Yes, that's another thing people tend to gloss over. I'm glad someone brought it up. It's exactly the kind of thing people like don't get when he talks about "watching your waifu fuck a guy." She wasn't his waifu; she wanted to be, but he didn't want her or even Charlotte, who was (and is) just another unwitting pawn to be discarded after she outlives her usefulness.

Griffith only ever loved one person and that's Griffith. People who delude themselves into thinking otherwise are basically drinking their own kool aid at this point.

I don't buy that second sacrifice thing..
On the other hand Skull Knight sacrificed a whole Kingdom.. but for what? Is he the idea of evil and the Skull Knight himself is just his body trying to redeem himself?

I don't think Gaiseric sacrificed the kingdom, I think it was void, and it was to become the first godhand (which is why it was such a large sacrifice)

there's no proof for any of this, it's just my headcannon until proven otherwise

Well Void is a Godhand and was Gaiserics (Skull Knight) Griffith.. or something.
But who is the Idea of Evil? There should have been another one before them or something if Griffith has to replace him.

Griffith watches Rickert leave Falconia, and could've easily stopped him. Just like he could've easily stopped Guts and Casca from leaving the Nexus. I think Griffith wants one of the old Hawks to tell him that he did the right thing, and that his emotions aren't as dead as he wants them to be. Maybe because the sacrifice was incomplete.

>Hitler only did the holocaust to make the Jews stronger and rid the world of Nazism. But I think you get the point.

Holocaust never happened though

>Implying Griffith would have stayed the same in a world with magic and shit
Guts would have run to Elfheim for making Griffith unretarded instead of Casca, saying that there was no cure for him is stupid retarded bullshit, even more so when everyone knew there was some magic bullshit going on since Zodd, doubly so counting Guts' flashback with the flower fairy.
If anything, it shows how much of a huge piece of shit Griffith is.
It was a figure of speech and refer to the text above.

Idea of Evil is like Fate's Angra Mainyu, only without once being a person. Something created by humanity's collective darkness and desire.

We cant say this for sure.

Yes, but only within the context of current society. His entry into the God Hand required him to commit a taboo that would render him inhuman at that particular moment. As a member of the God Hand, however, he's done absolutely wrong. They operate on a completely different moral spectrum.

>Just like he could've easily stopped Guts and Casca from leaving the Nexus.
He tried and failed to use some gravity press move that the Skull Knight and his horse were able to evade. You can see him gesture with his hand and then a look of surprise on his face when it doesn't work.

1/2

2/2

I don't think the idea ever was a person

it was magically "willed" into being by enough people wanting a reason for their suffering (just like how in real life people justify suffering as God testing them; because the idea they are suffering by chance alone, and that nothing controls it, drives some people crazy)

whether Griffith CAN replace the idea of evil is another matter, but I just personally think that's his plan, because he strives to be the greatest, and there is nothing greater than being the one and only unparalleled God of the world

>there are people ITT right now who think Griffith was wrong for sacrificing a bunch of hired murderers to realize his dreams
>there are people ITT right now that act like they wouldn't have done the exact same thing in his situation
>there are people ITT right now who blame Griffith for the world tree event when it was Gaiseric who dun did it
>there are people ITT right now who still hate Griffith even after he created a safe haven for humans and creates bonds between them and demonkind
>there are people ITT right now that won't even consider what possible plans Griffith is probably making for destroying the god hand
Shameful. Absolutely shameful.

>TFW you'll never play a Berserk game with Dark Souls mechanic made by fromsoft

>TFW the upcoming game is just another hack and slash

Why live?

>using guts for your griffith apologism

But he raped the qt brown girl and now she can't speak.

He fucked the princess because he was mad that he couldn't cockblock Guts anymore
Even putting aside that he threw away everything that every member of the Band of the Hawk had been working towards for years, he jeopardized his own life and chance of becoming the King of Midland, while putting events in motion that will almost certainly culminate in his downfall. He did something wrong, both in terms of morals and in regards to his accomplishing own goals and dreams
All he had to do was play it cool, fuck/marry Charlotte when the time was ripe, and poison the King afterwards, and he would have had it all, although thinking about it now it's probable that the Kushan would have completely wiped him and the Band of the Hawk out along with Midland had he not sacrificed everyone under the eclipse, become Femto, been reborn, and created a demon army to fight them off. This is a bit of a moot point, as that wasn't a visible concern at the time Griffith made his decision, but still

I thought Skull Knight just cleaved space-time there with his Sword of Thorns to avoid it, no?
Page attached shows when they're leaving, Griffith has a clear shot at Guts and doesn't take it.

>>there are people ITT right now who blame Griffith for the world tree event when it was Gaiseric who dun did it
Griffith already beat Ganishka, but sent him home explicitly so that he would put these moves into motion

remember when Griffith just walked into Ganishka's personal carriage, and nullified his apostle form within 2 seconds with magic wind, then said "lets fight again in a couple of weeks" for no reason at all?
he had won, right then and there, he could have finished it, but he wanted to make Ganishka feel so inadequate and powerless that he would jump the shark and turn himself into the world tree, so that Griffith could create Falconia

don't forget that the God Hand mention they can see the strands of fate better than most, so Griffith planned all of it

There's probably a perfectly reasonable explanation for why he did that.

I thought the story was that raping Casca was the only thing that couldn't be explained away, which is why demon babby and seeing qt Casca in danger are his only weaknesses.

Falling in love with a hunk of iron can do that to a man.

She's fine and with Griffith who still wants to fuck her I guess
I sort of thought that entire subplot was just a way of conveying how conniving and methodical Griffith is, but considering he's already the god king with a super fortress that can hold the entire population of Midland, there isn't really any reason for him to still care about her aside from any genuine emotions he feels. Or maybe he's just fattening up a calf so that he can make another sacrifice later on, who could say

>spite
>perfectly reasonable

He's keeping her around as a trophy wife. She's a status symbol, nothing more, nothing less.

Is Griffith even able to have children?

Nothing points toward a definitive answer.

Griffith's motivations already reek of Macbeth, don't go making any further connections.

>they altered Casca's skintone again in the OP

Only thing he did wrong was 1) being a pussy bitch and losing the sword fight when Guts wanted to leave and follow his own dream instead of Griffith's (which is something Griffith of all people should have been able to understand and respect) and 2) fucking the princess early out of wedlock because he was a pussy bitch.

Didn't do anything wrong regarding the Eclipse though, he was basically a broken shell of a man who would have been better off dead at that point, so I have no problem with him taking the God Hand's deal.

>he follows the anime

I love the CLANG, it's so bad.

Whenvwill Griffithfags realise that their beloved fuckboy is an entitled little bitch who had to literally get carried to his Godhood by the people he ended up sacrificing because he couldn't hack doing it by himself?

He's a pussy. It's time you all followed a real leader. Pic related.

And who is this?

>how much better the paradise Griffith made will be compared

When he created Falconia he also made all other places uninhabitable with monsters, even more so than the pre-world transformation Midland.

Mogamett was a better person.

Sindaddy. How can you not know about him?

I don't understand how "fate" works in the Berserk universe. Griffith had a Behelit from a very early point in his life, doesn't that mean that he was destined to fall from greatness, to the point where the Behelit would activate, since the very beginning of the story? Can we really say he did anything wrong when the universe itself was conspiring to bring about the conditions that would lead to the beginning of the Eclipse?

>Griffith had a Behelit from a very early point in his life, doesn't that mean that he was destined to fall from greatness, to the point where the Behelit would activate, since the very beginning of the story?
Yes. That why it's kind of tragic.

I follow her if you catch my drift.

She is dead. A male clone of hers has inherited her powers, though.

Why is it that boys always make better girls?

i know , i would still follow her loli corpse.

>Draw a girl
>Call it a boy

he fucked princess without securing king approval first

fuck the king

Yes because it should be obvious that Griffith is by his nature a narcissistic, borderline psychopathic control freak that cannot handle any slights on his ego, real or perceived.

As people like and have pointed out, Griffith is undeniably a very clever, if not outright Machiavellian and charismatic person who usually got what he wanted through his own little plans. He's always been obsessed with himself, his own ability to assert his will as he pleases, his own ability to stomp out defiance, and his own ability to lord over others.

He never loved Guts as a person. He loved him as an extension of his own will and a projection of his military power of his enemies. He never loved Casca. He loved her as a prize wrapped around his finger and a success story about what a good guy he is.

The moment they stopped playing these roles he ascended the mortal ideas of butthurt and went on a fucking temper tantrum on those around him without heed of consequences. The moment he's not in a position of power or everyone around him isn't in some way subservient to him he loses his fucking mind and tries to crush that resistance. Griffith has always been like that and will continue to be like that.

Ironically, his obsession with always being in control has made him a slave to fate and the God Hand. The more he wrestles for power the more powerless he becomes. Which in a way makes him a truly tragic figure.

How can Griffith be justified as good?

>Murders all his friends and soldiers so he can have power
>His only motivation is rule over everyone for power
>Rapes Casca
>Ruins Guts life
>Fucks princess out of spite of Guts
>Only even friends with Guts so he can use him.

Griffith is a cunt, he was evil from day 1. Every action he takes is for his own selfish reason.

Dont worry guise he'll get a change of heart once he sees Caska again, all thanks to the moon child's body that he's using right now

and then he and Guts gain a temporary alliance to kill God Hand

He already had the chance to experience a change of heart on the hill of swords and he said he had no feelings of remorse whatsoever.

Griffith did literally everything wrong.

He did it to save the world from Emperor Ganishka!