Thoughts on Monster?

A friend of mine recommended me this. Have any of you seen it? What do you think about it?

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Loved it. Johan is my favorite villain.

Good manga, ok anime.

20th Century Boys is better 2bh

Dropped on episode 15. Ridiculously slow, filler, mc is a saint and villains are cartoonish evil, plot full of coincidences, annoying characters... I just couldn't take it.

It's not. It's fucking shit on all levels.

There are no fillers.

pleb as fuck nigga

Says the pleb that likes 20CB which is worse on every possible level.
Worse villain.
Worse main character.
Worse secondary character.
Worse main theme.
Worse mystery.
Worse reveal.
Worse ending.
Worse fucking everything.

There is nothing good about 20CB.

What's better, the manga or anime?

Honestly? Its not worth it. I watched it all because I got pulled in by the first episode by the plot, and every so often it has some level of progression towards the end goal, but the whole thing gets sidetracked far too often to have really anything to do with the main story, and I honestly forget if it even actually HAD anything to do with the main story.

The show is a lot of fat, and not a lot of meat. If you enjoy slow period pieces from European countries like say Gone with the Wind, you might enjoy it a little. Otherwise, stay away.

Manga
>drawings
>storyboarding
>auto pacing

When someone is disappointed, 9 chances on 10 he watched it.

manga like with almost every other adaptation, anime is just for titties and memes user

read da manga

> Worse ending.

Damn, must be quite the shit. Monster's ending was retarded. After all the buildup Jonah's endgame wasn't just lame and illogical, it was plain idiotic.

How about you shut the fuck up and just go watch it and make your own opinion, tumblr cancer?

>read da manga
Why? I know the story and the ending. Unless the manga is literally 1 volume long and introduces black jack and hookers, there's literally no point.

he's a pleb, Monster is worse than 20CB

Anime.
The art in the manga is too rough in my opinion and cleaner in the anime. The soundtrack adds to the atmosphere and the pacing, while slow, makes it feel as though Tenma spend a lifetime searching for Johan despite only lasting 3 years or so.

People who think that the anime has pacing issues are just ADHD idiots who can't enjoy anything slow.

I guess you're right, but yeah in the future read the manga first then watch the anime

Detective Lunge is best girl

>buildup Jonah's endgame wasn't just lame and illogical, it was plain idiotic.
No, it wasn't. You just didn't understand Johan. His end game made perfect sense and was completely logical.

Monster's ending worked perfect with its overarching theme, gave a conclusive ending for both Johan and Tenma and made everything go full circle.

I don't have ADHD issues. My favorite manga/anime is Mushishi. What I have a problem with is when the story wastes my time by showing me things that are only tangentially related to the main story or worse. It's the same reason I loved the Hobbit and hated LotR. LotR is bogged down with a lot of the history of middle earth whereas Hobbit is just about the fun and adventure.

>My favorite manga/anime is Mushishi.

If I give you a (you), will you tell me what you're making that face for?

>What I have a problem with is when the story wastes my time by showing me things that are only tangentially related to the main story or worse
And why is that bad? Oh right, because you have ADHD issues. You didn't think that maybe those side stories had something to do with the overarching theme, no?

>LotR is bogged down with a lot of the history of middle earth whereas Hobbit is just about the fun and adventure.
Heh. The Hobbit is fun because it's a short story for kids. Which says a lot about why you liked it over LoTR even though I agree that it is tedious at times.

Monster's ending was good and Johan conquering the world would have been retarded. Fucking up a whole city that means a lot for him was the only way to write it

I know right

There's a difference between calm coziness and slow pacing.

Though, there's actually a reason why he didn't conquer the world and destroyed a city instead.

>Loved the hobbit and hated LotR
You might want to reconsider about your ADHD issues.

>I loved the Hobbit and hated LotR
>My favorite manga/anime is Mushishi

It was really interesting at first, but it began to drag in the middle and the resolution was unsatisfying to me. Definitely overrated, but probably a solid 6.

I remember (I forgot the specific reason though, wasn't it the house memories?)
Still better than him trying to conquer the world and the plot coming at a halt.

Also the middle was the most interesting part and it only dragged on near the end, which ending made up for

>And why is that bad?
It's unnecessary to the main plot is why it's bad. Even if it contributes to an overarching theme, it often has very little to do with the plight involving the main character.

>Oh right, because you have ADHD issues.
Isn't it more ADHD to want to see more irrelevant details rather than focus on a single character for an extended time? Don't you have that backwards?

>Which says a lot about why you liked it over LoTR even though I agree that it is tedious at times.
The real difference between the hobbit and LotR is the tediousness. That and the politics involved with the kingdom which I found largely uninteresting. Which is what makes LotR the inferior story.

However, I fail to see how you wouldn't describe Mushishi as slow paced.

The fuck? Does Sup Forums hate Mushishi now?

>le subplots are bad man

>tumblr
>rec thread
lurk for 2 years before posting

Here. I made a video explaining the ending so that I wouldn't have to explain myself again every damn time.

youtube.com/watch?v=dU2uy4oyq2w

>It's unnecessary to the main plot is why it's bad.
You haven't explained how or why it's unnecessary.

>Isn't it more ADHD to want to see more irrelevant details rather than focus on a single character for an extended time?
That makes no sense and shows more a lack of understanding of what ADHD means.

>Even if it contributes to an overarching theme
You said it, it contributes to the themes, which are some of if not the most important part of a story.

Also, episodic structures exist.

I read like half of the first volume years ago and don't remember jack shit about it. This guys a serial killer right? And he did nothing wrong?

You have an okay voice but no way I'm watching 25 minutes of that shit when I haven't slept since 25 hours holy shit what am I still doing on this website i hate it

Nah he's an asshole but protag doesn't want to kill for ethical reasons

A very enjoyable series in both forms of media if you especially enjoy plots with not only psychological elements, but realism as well.

Many of the characters in Monster are written as if they were based on actual individuals that exist in our world; the traumatized who drown their memories out with alcohol, the morally-driven, the cunning and charming predator that masquerades as an average person - so on and so forth. Even in the sense of character traits alone, it is only but a mere part of what makes the full piece endearing.

A slow pace is what I constantly see as far as complaints towards the show, and of course, an opinion is respected. I can understand how some may become irate with how "dragged out" certain events in the story may be. But, that is another fraction of why I think Monster is unique - it has to do with the realism mentioned earlier.

The general occurences that take place - if applied in a "real world" scenario - are very unlikely, if not impossible, to be solved in a week's worth of time. It may take months, even years, to uncover a cold, calculated suspect behind murders. Thus the pacing definitely aided, in my own perception, the plot's sense of being real - it has a similarity to that of watching a forensic documentary.

Just 2x or watch it another time when you're not tired.

I hate all of you guys I wish I could burn this whole place down and go back to being productive

They usually are. With the exception of horror and drama pieces, most of the main show's gimmick happens to or around the main character, which is why they are usually the center of the story. When you focus on a subplot, you're usually taking away from what the show is about to fill time. I guarantee, you could improve a shit ton of shows by erasing subplots and having the information necessary for the main plot drift in through the characters interacting with the main character.

>You haven't explained how or why it's unnecessary.
Read above.

>That makes no sense and shows more a lack of understanding of what ADHD means.
Aren't those with ADHD easily distracted from what they're trying to focus on? Wouldn't that mean that changing the focus from one specific thing to another thing be there to stimulate people with said short attention spans? Isn't that usually why subplots are involved? To break up the pacing of the main story to keep things stimulating for the viewer?

Just because something CAN POTENTIALLY contribute to a theme, it is not necessarily good to include it in the story.

ITT: overrated shit

johans end game was for tenma to shoot him. are you sure you watched monster?

>Just because something CAN POTENTIALLY contribute to a theme, it is not necessarily good to include it in the story.
True, sometimes it can hurt the plot. However, Monster's fillers are all more-or-less tightly linked to the plot, they don't have inconsistencies, their plots are mostly good and at the very least okay because it's Urasawa, and they're pretty fast-paced as long as you read the manga. So what's wrong with it? I can understand if you watched the anime though.

> No, it wasn't.

Yes, it was. The ending was explained - there's nothing to understand. But the explanation doesn't make it good - the motives, logic and actions are still bullshit.

> gave a conclusive ending for both Johan and Tenma

That's all it did. And that ending sucked hard.


> the only way to write it

You lack imagination.

>you're usually taking away from what the show is about to fill time.
Monster is a thriller, not a horror piece.

>When you focus on a subplot, you're usually taking away from what the show is about to fill time.
And yet you haven't said that the subplot is filling time, when I argued that it reinforced the main theme of the story.

>you could improve a shit ton of shows by erasing subplots and having the information necessary for the main plot drift in through the characters interacting with the main character.
And by doing so, you would remove the core theme of the story.

Again, you haven't explained how the subplots in Monster are unnecessary. You've only talked about how subplots can distract from the main story and be irrelevant. You have given no examples nor talked about Monster in any way.

Incorrect. Johan's end game was to conquer the world. It changed midpoint.

>You lack imagination.
Johan going politics, nazis or something like that would've been retarded, so any bigger scope than a city would've been totally unrealistic. He always operated under shadows, and his magical persuasion skill manipulating the entire population would be retarded. Johan is a criminal that uses persuasion to get people to do dangerous shit for him, not a politician. And neither is Tenma, so the story wouldn't work from that point.

>But the explanation doesn't make it good - the motives, logic and actions are still bullshit.
The motives, logic and actions are all logical.

>That's all it did.
Everyone basically died, moved or became a new person. Everything was conclusive. I don't know why you think the ending was shit.

It's good if you like long, slow burn type shows.

I got kind of fed up with how it was always pulling its punches and that nothing truly bad ever happened. The MC always succeeds and the "villians" always get thwarted. Also episode like 30-55 could have been easily compressed into like 2 so be prepared for filler and characters you don't care about.

>The MC always succeeds and the "villians" always get thwarted.
Are you sure you watched Monster, because the MC never succeeded in anything and the villain got away with everything.

>The MC always succeeds and the "villians" always get thwarted.
Richard

This. I really liked it.

youtube.com/watch?v=fnQA-1qlgI4

>the villain got away with everything
Pretty sure he's dead.
>h-he escaped
>somehow
>in this chapter full of symbolism and weird shit

Are you implying that Tenma somehow didn't win?

the world to him is Tenma since he saved his life. so by making tenma shoot him hes conquering the world. Why? because he never wanted tenma to operate on him, he believes hes immortal and a god.

I'm at episode 32 and the shit goes slow as fuck

yeah man it's like a live action drama series, it doesn't have any super powers or moe or anything to make it feel fast

In fact it's probably the least anime like manga to ever be adapted

I disagree. The thing is that Johan intended to actually destroy the world for compelling reasons. Reasons that I explain in my video but you would rather stay on Sup Forums that watch, but whatever. Johan intended to destroy the world so that it could see the world the same way he does. But after getting back his memories, it gave him the goal to seek out revenge for what Bonnaparta did to his mother.
The ending purposefully deviated from the destruction of the world to something personal for Johan.

The Landscape of the End is what Johan intended all along from the beginning.

I meant more that Tenma didn't accomplish his goal of killing Johan.
He won by proving his morals to be correct by saving his life. But it's still the MC going around never being able to stop the villain and he does whatever he wants unopposed.

>the world to him is Tenma since he saved his life.
No, it's not. He's grateful for Tenma and nothing more. That's why he killed those doctors as gift for saving his life. Johan never cared for Tenma other than to fuck with him and prolong his cat and mouse game until he destroyed the world.

>so by making tenma shoot him hes conquering the world. Why? because he never wanted tenma to operate on him, he believes hes immortal and a god.
No. By making Tenma shoot him, he wants to die because he accomplished his only actual goal in life. He ended up killing everyone who knew about him and then left Tenma as the only person who remembered him and broke his morals.

Look, watch this.

youtube.com/watch?v=dU2uy4oyq2w

>Mr. Cynical

>I disagree. The thing is that Johan intended to actually destroy the world for compelling reasons.
I'm not disagreeing with that, I'm saying he'd have failed or that he'd have gotten a huge plot shield to help and lots of unrealistic shit too. I know a story doesn't have to be consistent all the time but there are limits.

Yeah, I guess.
Although, to be fair, 20CB went that route and was fucking shit. And it's perhaps the reason why Monster is better is because it went more personal rather than the world destruction route.

nah Kenji was a better MC than Tenma

>However, Monster's fillers are all more-or-less tightly linked to the plot
I think this is the main point where we'll disagree. I found the subplots were less than tightly linked, and often times the connection to Johan was tenuous, if not outright coincidental at best.

But like I said, it's not how slow or fast pace it was, it was that some of the pacing I felt had little relevancy or contributed little to the actual overall plot.

>Monster is a thriller, not a horror piece.
Yes, I agree, which is why I found problems with so many subplots going on.

>when I argued that it reinforced the main theme of the story.
The question I propose to you is "Does it need reinforcing to begin with?" and especially "Just because a subplot fits IN with the theme, does that really mean it's contributing?"

Do I really need a subplot detailing how evil the villain is when the villain has already been established as evil before hand in not just the main plot, but the other sub plots as well? Do I REALLY need a subplot talking about how strong the Action Hero is when the Action Hero is established as strong?

>And by doing so, you would remove the core theme of the story.
I firmly believe that if more than half of your story is unknown to the protagonist, the protagonist's motivations. There's a very rare breed of story that benefits from having more audience knowledge as opposed to character motivations.

>You have given no examples nor talked about Monster in any way.
The reason being is I honestly remember very little of the show. I remember a few things, but it's been years. I couldn't cite specific examples to you. If you're looking for a reason to attack my argument based on the show, this one is probably the best one to dismiss my opinion on. I just remember the overall impression of the show and a handful of characters and my feelings towards it as a whole. Frankly, I didn't find it was worth filling up my memory with.

Anyone else generally surprised Monster never got a German dub?

Yeah I know dubs=shit, but they would of been able to actually pronounce all the names and locations correctly for once

well Germans can only dub stuff in Arabic now

No he wasn't.
Tenma was competent. What did Kenji do?

>Yes, I agree, which is why I found problems with so many subplots going on.
And yet you still can't say what subplot in Monster were bad.

>Does it need reinforcing to begin with?" and especially "Just because a subplot fits IN with the theme, does that really mean it's contributing?"
Begging the question. Irrelevant. You have to prove that it wasn't needed.

And yes. When the main theme of the fucking show is that love and empathy saves lives and you show subplots of people saving people's lives, helping others and their human connections, then it is necessary. You still haven't talked at all about Monster nor talked about which subplots should've been removed or why they were bad.

>Do I really need a subplot detailing how evil the villain is when the villain has already been established as evil before hand in not just the main plot, but the other sub plots as well?
Oh you mean the main plot? Yeah that's important. Maybe you don't know the difference between a subplot and the actual main plot.

>I firmly believe that if more than half of your story is unknown to the protagonist, the protagonist's motivations. There's a very rare breed of story that benefits from having more audience knowledge as opposed to character motivations.
Or, you know, maybe it's a thriller where the protagonist is finding out more about Johan at the same rate as the audience?

I really think your problem is that you don't know what is a subplot.

>The reason being is I honestly remember very little of the show.
It shows because you're talking about subplots and the problem with subplots rather than the subplots of what you watched.
Jesus, you might as well hate why villains are so evil and horrible for storytelling.

>What did Kenji do?
Cry on a mountain and sing cool songs.
To be fair the "crying 3 whole days and night" sound awesome, like that sprint scene in Berserk. Wish we could've seen it.

Really good, was solid all the way through, though I wasn't big on the ending? Felt like a lot of buildup for not much.

It's p gud, not exactly the masterpiece everyone makes it out to be, but it's definitely decent and keeps your interest even till the end.

>To be fair the "crying 3 whole days and night" sound awesome, like that sprint scene in Berserk. Wish we could've seen it.
That was honestly cool and possibly his only good moment. It was his call to adventure and showing determination before the beginning of his long quest.
It just sucks that the adventure itself was shit.

At least Tenma was a finger away from sniping Johan and shooting him after that.

Bob lennon is still a good song though

and while he kind of fell apart after he died, that moments with kana (before the time skip made her a complete mary sue) when good

>It shows because you're talking about subplots and the problem with subplots rather than the subplots of what you watched.
Actually, considering the fact that you went along with my statements and didn't call me out on not remembering the show very well all the way up until after I revealed that fact to you is a testament to how little the subplots mattered. Subplots are almost a universally bad characteristic of any story telling medium, and like I said before, any story could instantly be improved by cutting them out and having any necessary and relevant information simply flow back to the protagonist in a natural way.

Keep nitpicking things and getting angry about it though. As for me, I've said my piece.

You've said nothing about nothing.
>subplots are bad because they're subplot
Maybe go watch the show again before talking out of your ass.

>this autist still arguing about how he hates subplots
pure autism

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Seriously, why don't you and your video just fuck off?

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