Near the end of the last century, one by one the communist states of the world have either completely collapsed and been replaced, or have lost all power and today have no stability, influence or relevance.
Yet many people, generally young adults and academics, still see communism as a viable "step forward", and Marxism is still taught and preached all over the world. What does Sup Forums think about this? Why are people still attracted to an ideology that has been a proven failure time and again?
>Why are people still attracted to an ideology that has been a proven failure time and again?
You mean like fascism?
Luke James
>Why do beople blame human instinct instead of actually blaming gommunism?
Kinda the reason why everyone, including you, blame only the "seize the means of production" part and gently skip over the part where all of the genocidal commie fascists were aethifags who wanted totalitarian atheist states.
Logan Richardson
We haven not seen fascism in the first world in over 40 years.
The opportunity (and need for people) to work is not fascism, you just don't like effort.
Aiden White
Use your thinking muscle and ask yourswlf What happened to all those countries that tried fascism over 40 years ago?
Kayden Howard
> Yet many people, generally young adults and academics, still see communism as a viable "step forward", and Marxism is still taught and preached all over the world. What does Sup Forums think about this? Why are people still attracted to an ideology that has been a proven failure time and again?
Read paul cockshott's 'A Towards a New Socialism'
Essentially, Socialism failed because the influence on needs rather than market demand meant the economy had to be calibrated in every aspect of society by a large scale bureaucracy, an elite. And in this sense, created a system where workers did not truly hold power over the means of production (Hence why Bordiga described the USSR as a 'state feudalistic' society), and caused an inefficient system that poorly allocated resources based on short term analysis without the ability for long term planning. Couple that with a low productivity due to a lack of investment into consumer goods, and you have a failed system.
This was the primary reason the USSR collapsed and China Reformed.
However, modern computing systems means this allocation of resources is far less difficult in industrialized nations, along with an increasing automation of work. in this sense, planned economy models may not just be more beneficial to society as a whole, it may even be more efficient.
Those regimes don't exist today, western culture and capitalism won.
It's not perfect, but it's by far the economical system that has risen the most people out of poverty since the dawn of civilization.
Joshua Myers
They fought against globalism, and globalism won Do you think that was a good outcome? Completely unraveling all western nations sovereignty in exchange for cheap third world immigrant labor and global markets?
Gavin Stewart
That's a natural outcome of a free market enveloping international trade with third world markets. It's also the only means of production many of these counties have.
Take that away and they're literally just rolling around in their own loo.
Post war Japan and South-Korea developed into first world states, can you give an example of a single state that made this kind of progress using a socialist system?
Jaxson Jackson
>Post war Japan and South-Korea developed into first world states, can you give an example of a single state that made this kind of progress using a socialist system?
Not only have i noticed you ignoring my post, but maybe I ought to point out the Soviet Union had the 2nd largest GDP in the world.
What does the Russian federation have? The 11th.
It's also worth noting these states did partake in international trade, you mongrel.
David Lee
It's popular because it's easy. People like the path of least resistance and it's easier to be a weak consumer than it is to be a strong producer.
Luis Cruz
>communism Failed >fascism Failed >capitalism Over 200 years and still going strong.
See you among the exhaust flumes of life, totalitarians.
Luke Harris
>Crying about "slave labor" in the third world as a result of capitalism. >USSR had the 2nd largest GDP in the world. Psst, that was thanks to literal slave labor.
Also, I didn't ignore your post, the fact that you're hiding behind a meme flag tells me more than enough already.
Russia is #11 today because of political tensions and sanctions, not because of their output you retard.
Michael Perez
>they fough against globalism and for national sovereignty by invading other sovereign nations
Wehraboos are literally braindead
Asher Russell
It is a result of liberal bourgeois policies creating economic equality, whether or not the inequality is deserved doesn't matter to these people. Thankfully the rise of communism gives way to fascism.
Adrian Hernandez
>They fought against globalism They only fought against globalism imposed on themselves, they were more than willing to violate the national sovereignty of other nations.
Logan Johnson
consumers and producers are synonymous under communism you troglodyte
Owen Taylor
Not for long
Gavin Harris
*creating economic inequality
Jaxon Taylor
You mean exactly what the US does today then? Syria, Libya, Iraq, etc. >inb4 it was bad then, but not now. fighting to prop up the petrodollar is different!
Jose White
We don't pretend otherwise. You're the one claiming they fought against globalism.
Nicholas Cruz
Who said I support endless global war?
Nolan Nelson
Did you both seriously have to bump the thread? Do you know how to sage?
Jacob Price
Argue semantics all you want, faggot. The fact is that people like free shit more often than they like being productive. Is that clear enough for you?
Kayden Carter
Why would I want to sage? I want this conversation to continue.
>I don't support endless global war And yet does These are the policies you actually support, whether you realize it or not is up to you.
Sage goes in the options field newfriends.
Isaiah Ward
Isolationism is not a feasible foreign policy, and not even the fascists bothered with it.
Dominic Carter
It's worked great for the Swiss.
Blake Morgan
>ITT: goys hiding behind memeflags.
Christian Johnson
Switzerland is a globalist direct democracy, nowhere close to fascism.
Brandon Carter
I never called Switzerland fascist. I just value the local over the global. You should too.
Gabriel Allen
Switzerland is as globalist as it gets. Their economy relies heavily on international involvement. You're confusing being peaceful with being nationalist.
Joseph Barnes
>Psst, that was thanks to literal slave labor.
Considering they reached that point after khruschev ended the practice, and they didn't even reach their highest growth rate until the late 50's, that's objectively false.
>Russia is #11 today because of political tensions and sanctions, not because of their output you retard.
Really? Because the economy collapsed in 1992, long before sanctions, and whilst Yeltsin still held majority support.
Jackson Ramirez
Because in the west, there is this idea that the ideologies never really had the space to give it an honest and unhindered try. That these ideas are a rebellion against a tyrannical empire of sorts that subjugated marximunism many times, by subversion, conquest and economic abuse. It's easily identified like an idea that is smashed because it will make the powerful less so. And this idea, tends to be particularity prevalent in high education environments, fueled by the compassion and goodwill of many stupid, but good intention ed people, into crusades for better human conditions. All because well, it sounds really good, and you have to dive deeper than most are willing to find the cracks and see how empty the red castle truly is.
Also, the gen that they call "millennials" was one with a lot of questions that the "baby boomers" or whatever couldn't really answer, because theirs was a generation that accepted things as they were and didn't really knew/know why the structure of society was built this way. Why our ancestors made things like this. Some of us, decided to learn for ourselves how things were designed, what was the intention and why it worked. Others thought that social rules had no meaning at all since their parents and educators weren't able to answer anything at all. Some thought that these rules were arbitrary in the first place, just a way to acquire power and control.
And that makes marximunism attractive. It feels like the "heroic rebel" choice. Which is very popular with young people in the first place.
Jacob Baker
There are a ton of countries that are much much worse than they were 70-80 years ago. Specially the middle east. They were civilized for fucks sake.
John Rogers
>Their economy relies heavily on international involvement And yet they safeguard their nation from foreign influence and don't entangle themselves in constant foreign wars. Call it what you want, but that's more nationalist than what America has been doing.
Jaxon Torres
>Considering they reached that point after khruschev ended the practice, and they didn't even reach their highest growth rate until the late 50's, that's objectively false.
Then you've got no issue with slavery, imperialism, or anything else the west used to get to power either? I don't, but you can't "pardon" the USSR, while accusing the west for exactly the same shit.
Noah Thomas
It will end sooner or later. We won't be able to leave the planet in time to continue having the infinite growth capitalism needs. Eventually, we won't be able to sustain it and it will die that day. A lot of people will probably die too.
Zachary Gray
I'm agree with you on that point, although that's nothing close to what the fascist nations in the 40's were doing.
Sebastian Reed
>Giving a shit about the middle east. They're a bi-product of globalism, which I'm opposed to, in a isolationist / localized economy there'd be no appeal, and no reason to fight over the resources in the area.
Ian Thompson
>Then you've got no issue with slavery, imperialism, or anything else the west used to get to power either? I don't, but you can't "pardon" the USSR, while accusing the west for exactly the same shit.
Except I do pardon it. It's part of hegelian dialectics.
Levi Parker
Fascism has worked every time it's been tried.
They were defeated through war, not problems arising because out of fascist policy. A fascist country has never failed on its own accord.
Michael Rogers
Communism only doesn’t work cause the international globalist capitalist Jews won’t allow for nation state based communism. They want International open borders communism outsourced to powerful multinationals of the private sector.
Adam Gutierrez
I can't argue with that. I'm just pointing out what lies ahead for us all if we keep on course.
Zachary Lee
>Fascism has worked every time it's been tried.
Spanish state had a deep recession until it opened its economy in the 50's.
Italy's economic growth slowed massively during Mussolini's period
The Greek Junta also brought the worst period to Greece in recent history
Andrew Moore
>nation state based communism That's an oxymoron, "true" communism as Marx imagined it was international and would do away with the state entirely.
Samuel Murphy
It exists since forever, and it has a huge influence, in all points of history. I get that you don't like them, but disregarding them isn't wise. They are raping europe, and you continue to disregard them. But the important thing is that a lot of Arabic countries were really cool in the 50s. With very westernized cities and approach to culture. They weren't aping around. And now they are, and it's terrible. There was a time were you could go as a tourist and it was totally OK. No problem, beautiful architecture and art. Friendly people. Safe. Now it's all gone. And it's a big part of the world to be gone.
Robert Flores
Actually read Marx please.
Marx Envisioned a workers revolution in the most industrialized nation on earth at the time. I.e. at his point, Germany or Britain.
It would then use its economic influence to spread socialism globally.
The state would be done away with when workers were entirely self organized.
Parker Williams
Literally nothing you just said contradicted what I said. The socialist phase of communist is based on the nation-state, yes, but the ultimate goal of communism includes the destruction of all nation-states.
Communism can still be achieved in a nation state, however. Marx only believed the Worker's revolution would push forward other nations, similar to how the french revolution pushed capitalism.
Self organized workers are still found within nations. See the CNT FAI Revolutionaries of Catalonia.
Ryan Harris
They realized they couldn't hold a state, so they infested themselves amongst existing states. Playing the long con.
Nobody believes me because I'm a schizo conspiracy theorist or something, so whatever. You bitches will see it for yourself.
Anthony Jones
>Spanish state had a deep recession Because it was boycotted by other countries for its links with Hitler.
Italy's economic growth slowed massively during Mussolini's period False. Growth wasn't as much as expected, but it was growth nonetheless.
Aaron Barnes
The attraction of Communism is the manner in which all members of society are granted goods and services.
Marx wasn't wrong in some of his assessments; with Capitalism there is an uneven distribution of resources; the wealthy have and control much of the money, land, and commodities. In turn people have been turned into commodities.
The central planning of Communism is also it's biggest weak point. Instead of the Workers seizing the means of production those means were seized by the state.
In contemporary Western Nations it's not impossible for a company to be employee owned. Companies like Stewarts' Shops provide comprehensive benefits and a stake in the company for employees.
I would argue this an advantage of a market based economy; take a mill for example. Mill Panther is owned by an individual who hires employees for an hourly wage. Mill Neon is owned by all of the people who work there. Each mill has a total of 100 employees and are located in the same town.
When presented with the option of automation Panther is able to install robots and fire 20 employees. Neon could buy out some of it's employees to automate, or allow all owner-employees to receive the financial benefits of automation or even reduce work hours.
When faced with competing wages from overseas, Panther could sell the mill while the owner transfers operations abroad. Neon could collectively vote to sell the mill or take reduced wages to stay competitive in the global market.
Workers can seize the means of production in a market based economy, and could be a major solution to the issues of income inequality we are facing now.
Totalitarian central planning has been proven incapable of providing the goods and services necessary to allow a country to prosper.
William Smith
You can't use the boycott argument. It's the same as saying that communism failed due to external intervention. We can't accept one, and deny the other.
Ryder Anderson
>Because it was boycotted by other countries for its links with Hitler Considering how fascism embraces autarky I don't think the boycott argument really works, fascist nations practically boycott themselves after all.
