Is he a hero or a villain?

Is he a hero or a villain?

Depends on the day of the week.

>Chaotic Good

Yeah my ass.

I don't know, but he's shipping on the 25th of January.

>Elise this month
>Found out King of HEROES is coming out the 25th after the delay
I am excited

He was a hero until he got dipped in the root of all evil

talking about Grand Order?

Fate Exetlla coming out tomorrow for NA

>introduced as a villain
>dude he's popular quick white wash him in his next appearances

how to sell your series to kids 101

>Elise
It took me a moment, but then I understood. Happy days all around.

Oh, is it? I hadn't know but I'll be on the lookout now. I'm referring to Max Factory's Gilgamesh though.

When covered in grail mud yes he's definitely a villain but base 4th war Gil is just arrogant and with good fucking reason.

Anyone who disagrees is a mongrel and a faker

Which admittedly didn't contaminate him because of his already inflated ego.
He's just a dick.

>Get raped by Shirou
Can't be a hero if you get killed by a highschool redhead.

He's not a good guy.
He's not a bad guy.
He's THE guy.

And he's definitely not Ugly.

I understood that reference.
Well said, Juni.

4th Grail War - Wanted the Grail for himself because he's the king.
Corrupted by the Mud - He wanted to see the world burn itself to the ground.
CCC - A fucking total bro to FeMC after BB went to far and sealed them, and he was willing to cooperate to her, and they were became equals at the end.

Neither. He's a jobber.

>Corrupted by the Mud
The mud didnt fuck with him, he just realized what the grail really is and decided to use it as a tool

He's neither

>Lancer shows up
>Lancer(caster)
>mfw

He is a man who loves his Husbando (genderless)

Quick question about him

The original epic of Gilgamesh iirc he failed twice at gaining immortality, first was with the old man second was with the snake

That still the case for the fate version or is it a bit different

"6 billion curses? Bring thrice as much if you wish to stain me!"

Grail mud didn't do shit to him. His character is pretty consistent throughout Fate, Zero, HF, and HA. UBW is where he's OoC cause they had to squeeze him as the final boss.

I just want to know why he can be summoned as Archer. I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of different myths and legends, so I'm probably missing details, but did he ever use a ranged weapon?
Rider makes sense, he had sex for almost a week straight.
Berserker makes sense, he fought a bull with some assistance which was probably pretty wild.
Archer? I'm fucking lost.

You can be a hero for one side but a villain for the other.

He can be summoned as supposedly any class, but arhcer is the most fitting towards him as it is the only class with independent action and even with a single command seal he is hard to control.

>the most fitting towards him as it is the only class with independent action
>he is hard to control.
Ok. Thank you for telling me. But doesn't that seem like traits for a Berserker? A word that is synonymous with being hard to control?
It's probably something from the game, so I'll stop complaining, but it still bothers me.

Gilgamesh is Japanese Dr Doom.

Kingly villain who wants to fuck the blond, everyone turned out to like them, and thus had to be rewritten and retconned to being actually decent.

I had always considered it to be primarily centered around the functionality of GoB. Since he can fire weapons out of the portals he summons, his attacks effectively operate as if they had been sent from a bow or gun, or anything that is designed to launch something. If you look at some of the other servant that qualify for the Archer class, you'll find that some use things other than a bow, like Billy the Kid, or Nobunaga, who both utilize guns. Or Tesla, who uses one of his coils to shoot lightning.

Berserker is a huge mana/prana drainer and is hard to control because of madness.
The independent action and command seal thing is more an ego and character thing in the regard that you cannot make him submit. The other drains mana like a fuck ton and kills nearly most mages in a short time if they do not have some kinda plan for it, also you cannot reason with madness (even a strong ego like Heracles has a hard time shinning through the madness).

>any babylonian/persian scum
>good

He's a neutral figure in the grand scheme of things. He refused eternal life, so he refused the ability to keep his perfect kingdom forever, yet remains extremely bitter at the world for changing while he was dead.

Gil does not care about the overall well-being/survival of humans; he cares only about that of those of his kingdom. If his kingdom were to extend to all humans, he would care about the survival of all humans, but only as long as they were defined as his subjects. If his kingdom were to extend to five individuals, he'd be willing to wipe out the rest of existence if it was needed to protect his kingdom. If he had no kingdom, he would seek to create one. Neutral.

...

The Utnapishtim part he rejected the immortality it would grant him because he would lose his human desires. The snake didn't steal a herb of immortality but of rejuvenation. He still went back to get more of the herb afterwards though and stored it in his treasury.

He's not the guy. He is incapable of being the guy. I had a guy, but now I don't. He. Is not. The guy.

HOO BOY am I excited to shell out for something expensive

Hopefully I don't get jewed by scalpers

But who is his RICHAARDS ?

His mentality regarding weapons is the same as archers (disposable projectiles) even if he doesn't use bow and arrow. GoB is the bow, shitty 3rd ranked NP are his arrow.

He is actually pretty angry if someone degrades his treasures or is not worthy of someone touching them.
If they were disposable he would not have them return.
Also unlike common believe he can use the active abilities of everything he got in stock.

Check his MFC page. I remember one person mentioning that they'd bought two by accident and while I highlighted the benefits of that, I'm sure they wouldn't mind selling it. Might be a safer place to start than ebay, mandarake or yahoo.

That's just him fucking around, if he gets a bit serious he will select NP to get special advantage against the hero he is facing, and if gets even more serious, then you will have to deal with thousands of NP rainning from above an EA spam + Enkidu.

Mud

>Jobber
>BTFOs Tiamat and kicks the shid out of Saber in the first grail war they were in
>one of the most powerful servants

I am totally gay for him, no homo. I mean, look at his body

And you proven that you know jack shit about Gilgamesh motivations. He is exactly opposite of everything you said.

>gets eaten in HF

Ko Gil: the good boy before he becomes a dick as an adult.
Archer Gil: The heartless cruel tyrant before his journey who destroys his kingdom.
Caster Gil: Sage King from the end of the epic who builds the walls and works hard to make up for his fuck ups.

He's still arrogant as fuck.

>forgetting his waifu (secretary)

>That's just him fucking around, if he gets a bit serious
So what's this I'm hearing about "Caster Gilgamesh" in GO being the apparently never-seen "serious Gilgamesh"?

He wasn't really retconned as good. Nasu basically managed to explain the difference by playing the card Servants manifesting on a certain stage/age will act on that current personality. Basically, this Why Ko Gil is a nice boy despite growing up an asshole and having those memories. CCC Gilgamesh is simply like Caster Gil, the Gilgamesh after the journey. The same applies to all Servants.

Archer Gilgamesh is definitely an asshole who destroyed his kingdom out of his selfish bullshit and he's referred as one. Unless Enkidu is around to tame him, you're fucked.

Every Gil is from a different part of the Epic. Caster Gil is post-Epic. The true king, the one righteous sage, etc. etc.

Caster Gilgamesh is Gilgamesh at the end of the epic. He's alive but he's weaker because it's his twilight years (despite looking young), after he dies, he makes you summon him as Archer to go against Tiamat.

Gilgamesh WAS serious against Enkidu, in CCC, and other places. So that "never seen serious Gilgamesh" is kind of a fallacy.

He's a hero. He's actually very correct in his statement that humans are worth less than in his time because it is actually very true.
The weight of every human becomes less and less the more there are, the more there are the less magical they become, the more genetic diversity the less likely it is possible to reach the Root (as stated by Touko Aozaki).

Him attempting to wipe out the worst of humanity and rule over the survivors isn't actually the wrong way to look at it.
For him personally and how he rules, we've seen how good a king he would be to his subjects.
Freely giving out the weapons of the Gate of Babylon to each and every citizen regardless of status, doing his utmost to save the citizens of Uruk and protect that which he considers his domain.

He is a great king and if he could return the world back to the state is was before the modern era then he would be an amazing and wise leader.

In saying all that however, he is an edgelord in his methodology and does nothing to reconcile his outdated opinions with the current world in an attempt to be a fair ruler over all of the current humanity showing that his is not worthy of being in the position of King that he claims to be since he is unable to rule over the current masses as is.

>thinking Archer Gil's opinion is worth a dime

how far caster gil's magnanimity?

Gilgamesh (Archer) isn't a king, he's a tyrant. A selfish prick who is cruel and heartless and will destroy over what he claims to rule. He has a destructive nature.

I'm taking both characterizations into account. It's just that we see fuck all of Caster Gil within the series so we have to take that Archer Gil, the one we usually see running around calling people "Mongrels" and "This is a war of women and children" is the one we run with.
Every non-Caster Gil we've seen has been a variation on the FSN Archer Gil who is still distinctly pretty edgy with his motivations even if he becomes softer and softer with each passing game, IE CCC has him be fairly amicable or Strange/Fake has him being reasonable to Tine.

He does indeed have a destructive nature but we know from his development after Enkidu's death and his quest for immortality that there is a decent person in there even if it's covered in a harsh exterior.

His selfishness and cruelty are all things he generally grows out of over his story so to deny his future development when considering his entire character from start to end is disingenuous.

He's just a tool.
>Powerful servant, immense treasury to summon at his whim, sword that can destroy reality
>Resists grail mud, hangs around for 10 years on earth downloading loli porn
>Finally a chance at another grail
>Gets killed by some random self-insert retarded ginger kid
>(or a worm slut)
Ohohoho.

He's still arrogant, prideful and self-centered, sometimes prone to do stupid things but he listens occasionally to people, specially Siduri, his secretary. He has a different view of women as you can see because the only one who can tell him off and cool him down is her. He also is capable to eventually swallow his pride and ask for a plan). As how he rules, he's a bit more like Artoria, kind of a workaholic consumed by his obligations who insolates himself. He lost his kingdom once and all he returned to was an empty city in ruins. Everyone else was gone, except for Siduri. Little by little he rebuilt everything with her help.

He still has a sense of detachment to people because he's a Clairvoyant. All of them are a bit outside society and normal people. Merlin and Solomon are the other two we know so far. Gilgamesh can see the future, Solomon the past and the future, while Merlin the present.

No, you can't because Archer Gil is explicitly called a selfish tyrant. That's like mixing him with Ko Gil.

He doesn't grow out from them as Archer Gil. Fuck, seeing people's suffering makes him hard for God's sake. It's his favorite shit.

>Strange/Fake has him being reasonable to Tine.
That was only after he found out Enkidu was there. Siduri mentioned Gilgamesh became kinder when he was around Enkidu. In CCC, he's Classless and post Epic.

Archer Gil in FSN is not fucking right, he's the fucking villain.

Then we're going to have a debate on whether or not OP was asking if Archer Gilgamesh or "Gilgamesh" in general was the Hero/Villain because I've been writing under the assumption that it was Gilgamesh in general.

If we only take into account Archer Gilgamesh without Ko-Gil or Caster Gil for characterization purposes then yeah, he's a fucking douchebag par excellence.

>Archer Gil in FSN is not fucking right, he's the fucking villain.

Agreed if FSN is the only thing being taken into account.

He's an asshole, no more, no less.

He's the KING of heroes. Kneel before the king, faggot.

>all these edgelords trying to justify mustache twirling genocidal rapist FSN Gilgamesh by mixing him with his characterization post epic or when Enkidu is around
Funny how they bring up Caster Gil forgetting the real hero of the story, Great King Solomon, wouldn't have agreed with FSN Gil's edgefest. Or FGO entire message about humanity advancement and progression.

If you're bringing up h-he was right in FSN as here you're fucking missing the point of FGO message

FGO is non-canon garbage.

>bring up FGO stuff to justify shitty argument
>F-FGO isn't canon g-guys!

>Is he a hero or a villain?

A hero by the ancient standards when the term was first used. A villain by modern standards.

Gilgamesh: that harsh dad.
Solomon: the nurturing mom.
Merlin: that eccentric uncle nobody wants in their parties.

Really makes you think.

Gil: Otaku
Solomon: Moebuta
Merlin: KusoNEET

My argument wasn't saying he was right by our standards but by his own personal standards.
His is correct in saying humans have less value and weight, in the Nasuverse that statement is fact and a plot point about how Magus in modern times are weaker than those from the Age of the Gods.

I then proceed to shit on his FSN opinion in my ending statement by pointing out how unfeasible it is and how he can't choose to be a good king and wipe out all of humanity.
I was pointing out in the previous tl:dr paragraph that for him personally, to be a good king, he would need to recreate the conditions for which he ruled originally which was "Quality over quantity"

>His is correct in saying humans have less value and weight
But he's not correct. That was the whole fucking point of FGO.
> in the Nasuverse that statement is fact and a plot point about how Magus in modern times are weaker than those from the Age of the Gods.
Again see above. You missed the whole fucking point of FGO. Evolution and progress are a constant.

Archer Gilgamesh is supposed to be a fuck up. Not someone wise or right, but someone who fucked up his own kingdom out his selfishness and shortsight. He is still an immature manchild.

I mean to humanity. Gilgamesh has a role of tester/judge. Solomon of a teacher/mentor. Merlin is Merlin.

Gil's point was fucking stupid considering the main reason humanity was stronger in his time was due to the blessings of the gods, something which he thought was a crock of shit and tried to personally bring an end to.

Then, when the Age of Gods actually ends and humanity suffers a loss in mystery as a result he has the gall to say, "WOW, HUMANITY NOWADAYS IS SOOOOO WEAK?"

He got his shiny spaceship handed to him on a silver platter by the divines while simultaneously shittalking them yet we had to build our own shit and he thinks he's better because of it?

This.

Also Solomon's point about how there was less individuality back then and how he enamored became with romanticism, that's why he named himself Romani of Romantic.

Then we have a difference of opinion. I personally agree with Gilgamesh that humans had more value back in his time as we can physically observe that fact just with the amount of heroes that cannot be born from our era.

Progress and Evolution are all well and good and humanity is becoming pro-tier at recreating the mysteries from the Age of Gods which FGO heavily points out that humanity needs to shit on the gods and Beasts to advance into the stars and take their rightful place but you could still-

Actually no, you are correct. I am conflating my personal preference for humans having more weight and being bias towards that feeling.
Humanity evolving and becoming weaker as individuals but becoming stronger as a whole allows for humanity as a concept to be able to override the necessary steps we need to take as a group to achieve our full potential.

In hindsight Gilgamesh eventually grew into a decent person that as a Caster I would consider a hero but then he was only a decent king for the time period he was in.
You couldn't take a more modern king and place him in Gilgamesh's place to achieve a better result since Gilgamesh really was the first step of humans stepping out of the God's control but then in return he really wouldn't be a king able to fit in within the current form of humanity either.

>In hindsight Gilgamesh eventually grew into a decent person that as a Caster I would consider a hero but then he was only a decent king for the time period he was in.
You couldn't take a more modern king and place him in Gilgamesh's place to achieve a better result since Gilgamesh really was the first step of humans stepping out of the God's control but then in return he really wouldn't be a king able to fit in within the current form of humanity either.
Now I'm imagining a Youjo Senki scenario where a modern fedora-tipping "rational" salaryman is reincarnated back in ancient Mesopotamia and tries to one up Gil.

You just know they'd attempt to force modern values onto the society thinking they're doing the right thing not taking into account that Religion served a very important purpose back then and that their society ran upon certain things we might consider improper and that stopping those things would have a knock-on effect that would completely collapse the society.

I'm not saying Caster Gilgamesh was wrong, but Archer Gil definitely was. And he's the guy who fucked up his own kingdom and is still has that kind of manchild and cruel mentality. His characterization is problematic because of what this guy says He was shitting on humans who were individuals and divorced from gods and wanted to impose his version of divine will and punishment on them. It made zero sense unless he was still drinking the cool aid of his purpose as a judge from gods.

Second point. Chaldea is a place which is indeed making a mix of magecraft, magic and science. So is the living proof humanity is progressing. Gilgamesh even admits that it has replicated something only gods could do.

The deal with Gilgamesh is that he talks a lot and says a lot, but the king who actually pushed humanity to evolve, rather by choice or because of God's will, was Solomon. To miracles with his birth. To magecraft after he was crowned. To science with his death. None of this involved in wiping them out, but it always involved him teaching, helping, nurturing and sacrificing. He saw the past and the future, remember. He gained humanity. And he believed in humans.

He's the one carrying the theme here.

>Now I'm imagining a Youjo Senki scenario where a modern fedora-tipping "rational" salaryman is reincarnated back in ancient Mesopotamia and tries to one up Gil.
fund this please

>He still has a sense of detachment to people because he's a Clairvoyant. All of them are a bit outside society and normal people. Merlin and Solomon are the other two we know so far. Gilgamesh can see the future, Solomon the past and the future, while Merlin the present.
A clairvoyant Trio? Also is Marilyn basically omniscient?

Chaldea is a strange one though. It required the wish from the Holy Grail to actually become a thing.
It wasn't able to progress on it's own until Animusphere decided it would be a good idea to wish for a fuck ton of capital and to get accepted by the populous as a whole.

Can we really call it progress of humanity if it required non-human intervention?
But then the Fuyuki Holy Grail is a human invention to an extent so I suppose it is just using a tool created by humans but then on the flipside the series posits that a fake can be as good as the original so then would a fake grail be considered similar enough to the real to be considered divine?

And then what about the timeline from which Animusphere won the war? The Grail didn't seem to be corrupted so did that mean the first three wars went off without a hitch?

>Solomon pushed human without God's will.
What the fuck are you talking about. Yaweh literally told Solomon what to do to make his kingdom great, and told him what to do to push humanity onwards.

Merlin can see everything in the present, Gilgamesh in the future, and Solomon in the past and the future. Solomon's Clairvoyance was said to be "the most perfect." None of the three are regular human beings. Gilgamesh was a 3/4 god, Merlin half incubus, and Solomon was something so weird we're still discussing what the fuck he was.

Yes, but Solomon as human, as Roman was the one who gave the final push and it was on his own will - similarly how Jesus chose to die to save humanity, even if there was a plan he did it on his own choice. Roman was Solomon as a scientist. He was a doctor. Read up what the theme is. Mystery and Age of Gods collapse forever after he used Ars Nova.

The wish from the Grail only gave them money which is what Olga's father needed.

>Can we really call it progress of humanity if it required non-human intervention?
Sure it does. The Grail is made by magecraft plus miracles, where is the origin of that if not what was handed by Solomon in the first place? It is not a gift from Ishtar or someone.

>The Grail didn't seem to be corrupted so did that mean the first three wars went off without a hitch?
IIRC, there was only one war in Fuyuki, the 2004 one. We don't know why.

>The Grail didn't seem to be corrupted so did that mean the first three wars went off without a hitch?
The first three wars never happened

Makes sense.

Now I just wonder how all this interacts with Aoko and Zeltretch.
Do they count as humanity progressing?

>Solomon was something so weird we're still discussing what the fuck he was.
Explanation please.

Also how do they feel about each other?

so is the magic in medea's era is the same or more powerful or weaker than in gil's era?

They could be Solomon's descendants who inherited one specific magic.

But we know how Aoko achieved her magic. Is that implying all Aozaki were going to be the only people to achieve BLUE?
If other people had imitated Aozaki Grandfather's methods that they would have failed?

We need more yandere Servants.

I have a theory.
There is no real magic in this world. It's just that people can somehow effect the state of quantum particles unconsciously. The less you know about it the more magical it becomes in an attempt to unconsciously achieve your desired.
The more you know about it the less magical it becomes and the more it conforms to the laws of science that you know of.

So basically everything is quantum physics even the ROOT can all be explained using quantum theory and multi-dimensional Theory and what not.

All of it can be explained using the observer effect.
But the observer effect on a higher level

Solomon was born an inhuman hero legend/king. Unlike other heroes or monsters who are made, including those who are demigods or born with a prophecy like Arturia, seems like Solomon was one since birth. That's why he never experienced any "sense of humanity." Also he was basically a robotic system who was moved by God's will. He was said to be "omniscient" and "omnipotent" but he didn't have even the freedom to be angry about his lack of freedom. He becomes human thanks to a wish but loses his power and miracles. That's Doctor Roman.

>Also how do they feel about each other?
It's said that they feel some sort of kinship not exactly friendship but kind of acknowledgment. Gil and Roman are irritated by Merlin's antics, but they work together in Babylonia against Tiamat. Gil doesn't appear outside Babylon and a cameo. However, in his interlude even asshole Archer Gil is OK with following Roman, he's not so happy to deal with (you) and Mashu, so he tests. He also calls Solomon as "Great King Solomon". Caster Gil cannot stand Goetia faking to be Solomon, so he made himself a Caster out of spite.
As for the overall plot, after Olga dies in the prologue, Roman becomes the leader of Chaldea, everything runs there because he works his ass off to save history and humanity. Merlin has been juicing all Servants from Avalon, so his role is also important.

The magic was in the Aozaki bloodline, it manifested through her.

To be honest. Roman should've died in the explosion.

Goetia was the true hero of Grand Order.