Basically I've talked to a few people regarding this and they gave me a scenario.
Two people with 5 years experience in civil engineering apply for positions. One has a degree in civil engineering and the other doesn't. They are the same age and gender. They both get a respectable position but since one of them has a degree that person has essentially earned the right to a higher salary since that "piece of paper" is essentially just another layer, buffer or accreditation to display.
I've been told apparently this is quite common in companies. People who have the same experience in the same field, the one with the degree will over the course of the career earn significantly more than the person that didn't have the degree, even though they are both equally matched.
The point is that the guy with experience is going to be hired in the first place, because firms don't want to use resources to train workers, but want someone else to do it.
Camden Nelson
>one has a degree, the other doesn't >equally matched >a university degree is just a piece of paper Deluded.
Brandon Gutierrez
I thought virtually every job involves some on the job training as every employer wants different things and will alter your skills to fit their skill set?
Joshua Foster
I'm playing towards the attitude people here on Sup Forums perceive that ALL degrees are worthless and endlessly praise the trades.
I believe having a degree in an in demand field is god tier
Nolan Richardson
What’s your point? Despite how stupid you think people are, they wouldn’t still be spending tens of thousands of dollars on technical degrees if the increased future earnings weren’t weighted heavily enough in employer choice to outweigh the immediate opportunity cost.
Hudson Powell
>firms don't want to use resources to train workers Correction: firms don't want to waste resources training somebody who turns out to be incapable of performing his job. A college degree proves perseverance and dedication if not intelligence.
Jacob Bailey
Specialized training specific to that company/industry. Not general education and basics. You have to prove yourself capable of handling the workload before theybwaste money on dead ends.
Cameron Perry
As a civil engineer, it's a more unique field with respect to other STEM disciplines as we are highly reliant on skilled tradesmen. While I earned my degree to focus on the economic and long-term scheduling aspects of construction management, an untrained worker can attend a necessary trade school to gain field experience and put their profession to good use. However, in terms of management, a laborer is just a laborer. While it does take training, it is easier to find a man who can lay concrete or run electrical wires than to find a person they can trust to work with a 4800, 5 year scheduling process, who can determine what problems in the field are going to be impacting the project 6 months in advance, as well as the budget concerns associated with said delays. Which is not to say I disrespect field workers: I trust them very heavily for what they do, and our work would be useless without them. They have more field knowledge than I, and I have more business oversight.
Hunter Murphy
Ah, I see. I do see where you're coming from, Sup Forums does seem to present an attitude of distrust wherever higher education is concerned.
Many of these people believe universities to be liberal brainwashing camps. Shame, all of the more successful races on earth (jews, asians) take education very seriously, and for good reason
Cameron Martin
Yeah that's the thing. It's always a somewhat disconnect between "the marines and the generals". They need each other but since the white collar workers are largely responsible for admin and planning, they often command higher salaries. Same with any profession really. The ones who have the office will always be paid more than those who don't
Isaac Howard
After snooping here and reading r/college, the "General Education" meme is real. Liberalism has gone way too far in North AMerica. I was stunned to figure out that 2 bloody years of a professional degree where you guys are is spent completed classes completely unrelated to your major. That simply isn't the case in Europe and Australia where you can just dive right in and take classes contributing to your major. Like myself I'm doing accounting and I haven't taken any unrelated classes.
It's a fact that the liberal bias is ever present in universities but it goes overboard in America where you have to take bullshit like African American studies and women studies. When I walk around my university I see constant larping for refugees, Muslims and Aboriginals but if I close my eyes and not pay attention I can ignore it. American colleges have fully integrated far left ideology in subjects when all someone may want to do is gain their degree in electrical engineering.
William Wood
So what are you trying to say, then? That if a kid enlists at the same time as a college grad joins the officer corps they should be paid equally? Sure, the job the enlisted do is important, but management of dozens of enlisted men makes an officer more valuable. The ability to provide direction and coordination amidst difficult situations is rewarded. Sure, an enlisted man might have tactical thought, but I wouldn't put them in charge of strategy. There's more to a battle than just attacking the enemy, there's logistics, planning operations, intelligence, and so forth. For construction, there's a lot that needs to be planned that people don't realize. Clearances need to be arranged with local governments, such as large load trucks, or setting up cranes. Underground ordanances need to be followed with the necessary sewage, power, and utility authorities, and cooperation with residents of the area. Then, there has to be the procurement of materials from a reliable source that will get the materials on time: of course, these need to be stored some place until use, so there has to be logistics to ship and hold the materials until progress is ready. But to do this needs specialized machines, so those need to be subcontracted or purchased. So, once all those have been made, the specification plans need to be met, and subcontractors specified, and payment billings are established, then you can finally dig into the ground, but that's if everything else has gone according to schedule and the Toledo steel refinery hasn't had a workers strike I wouldn't put a tradesman in control of that if he has 10 years of digging. With my limited experience, I wouldn't trust myself either, but I know that I will eventually be in charge of organizing such kinds of projects
Nathaniel Hernandez
>family business and divorcing parents >mother wants nothing to do with business >dad has other interests >$$$$$$
Chase Powell
I work for an Engineering company, I can confirm this. It isn't what you know it is what you "earned". Some of the most brilliant people in the company are underpaid because they have less college and experience. Some people have 10 years experience and don't know shit and make more.
It's all a joke, but the real joke is that they are all STILL paying off student debt.
Levi Roberts
Haha I've never had a specialised job before, only minimum wage shit so regardless they train you. One thing I've realised about companies is they LOVE it if you stick around as it makes perfect sense economically. Forgive me as I'm being the stupid one but are you saying even with the higher salaries for employees the overall productivity generated still means the employer has the benefit?
Nathaniel Jenkins
>That if a kid enlists at the same time as a college grad joins the officer corps they should be paid equally?
No no I'm just using a military example. It's the same as me saying the employees and the boss, The businessmen and the engineers etc. Essentially a disconnect between different functions of an organisation.
I'm not trying to undermine your profession or "white collar work" in general (I myself plan to be a white collar worker) but I guess it's just different skill sets. The general perception is using your brain is more harder than using your muscles and salary wise this is true.
>I wouldn't put a tradesman in control of that if he has 10 years of digging.
Does it go the other way around like he wouldn't....oh wait that's not related at all. It's like you're in a completely different playing field of admin while he's in another playing field of digging. Fuck this is complicated. Even though it's all construction there are so many different functions. Same for anything really. I guess people who work at let's say a shipping company don't realise the work that office workers do in terms of planning and ordinances etc.
Gavin Murphy
>Some of the most brilliant people in the company are underpaid because they have less college and experience. Some people have 10 years experience and don't know shit and make more.
This is so fucking unfair but I'd imagine at an engineering company the disparity is less since all you guys are STEM and heavily rely on ability?
My parents work for a traditional large corporation and the amount of ass kissing, brown nosing, showing off, dick waving etc is monumental. If you boil it down EVERYONE is essentially trying to be the top dog and scrambling at every opportunity to do so. Democracy doesn't exist as it feels more like a monarchy where you bow down to your boss (the king) and it's all about status status status.
One thing that does work is being sociable.
>Some people have 10 years experience and don't know shit and make more.
The fucking general manager of this company is a high school dropout but even in his 60s, he's a very very fun guy to be around so therefore a lot of people like him and essentially he was able to smooth talk and kiss enough ass to one of the board of directors in the company.
Is your firm close to anything as to what I've described?
Juan Hernandez
>Does it go the other way around like he wouldn't....oh wait that's not related at all. That's a fair statement. My roles have all been as an assistant project manager. My responsibilites have mainly just been doing things he would be to busy to do. It'll be a while until I actually get command, but I'm gaining the experience and familiarity to do so, just like the field worker is gaining the necessary experience to become a journeyman. >Fuck this is complicated Correct. It mainly just comes down to respect between people for the amount of work that they do at the different levels, as both are needed for the overall success of the project. Yes, you need a manager, but no project can be completed without boots in the ground. For construction, I have to put a lot of trust in the field workers, as there's no way I could operate a 200 foot tall crane to maneuver steel beams whilst working in tightly packed city streets. Whatever your role is, I probably could not do it without a few years of training (I'd also need to hit the gym more often)
Wyatt Bailey
The most obvious example I can think of this is when I went to Singapore. Almost all the actual labourers where Indians, Pakistani or Bangladeshis while the managers, overseers (those in charge) were Chinese. I don't know if that's the culture there but the ones in charge were very stern and sometimes quite rude to the workers.
I guess sometimes it's hard to not feel superior when you have a /comfy/ office and have to interact with people who you perceive are of lower status. Fuck I don't know I guess now my life philosophy is just respect everyone and if they respect you back keep giving them respect.
Benjamin Jackson
>Chinese I'm guessing you know the "Don't Learn Mandarin" greentext?
Nathan Walker
>employee with 5 years experience >employee with 5 years experience + 4 to 7 years training
Hmmmm...
Jeremiah Foster
I have heard of this greentext but have never read it. I will read all of it now. Can you give me a quick rundown?
Jaxon Sanders
China is shit, cheap, and will jew everything out of you because you pay for what you get and suing them gives no returns if they fuck up your order because China doesn't have much respect The guy works for steel procurement, but I'm sure it applies to how they'd manage projects: if you hire a cheap worker, treat them like a cheap person. [spoiler]I also have to go to bed now, but I enjoyed this conversation and I hope your work/studies go well[/spoiler]
Towards the end almost every Chinese person I've met (not in china) shares the same idea about hating china. My chink friend said how his mother made a fortune in the real estate but had to endure so much bullshit business because China is very corrupt and there is so much money laundering. Many don't fulfil they're contracts and are a headache to work with, EXACTLY like what that guy described.
Lincoln Reed
The americans hate the Chinese because they're more capitalist than the americans. It's the truth and USA doesn't like being beaten in it's own game. That's why the guy is mad. If he could get away doing the same thing himself he'd pride himself in doing it.
Jace Turner
What's the unemployment rate for the degree people vs the experience people?
Asher Evans
>A degree vs experience? How about, a degree vs. becoming a merchant. I don't mean Jew, I mean make or sell products. That's where the real money is at, no degree required, and no (((student loans))).
Nicholas Hall
>you have to take aa studies and womens studies no, you really don't
accounting isn't really the kind of job you go to liberal arts for anyway
Jose Hughes
Yeah you could look at it that way as well. I think it's human nature to feel good when you outsmart or outdo other people but we live in a civilised world that should benefit everyone and ripping people off is illegal.
Joshua Young
>people have 10 years exp and don't know shit wat
>they are all paying off student debt yep, at 3K a year, when they make 100K compared to someone with no loans making 35K can you do the math now?
Connor Adams
I pretty sure both are attractive to employers but nowadays I feel experience matters more. If you're a loyal hardworking employee I think that speaks way louder than a degree. (Actions speak louder than words)
Henry Stewart
Because with a degree it typically means you know how to analyze new problems where experience ties to similar problems?
Easton Sanchez
Maybe not women's studies but what I understand in U.S. of A. all Bachelors require you to complete "General Education". Usually these are communications related and often have nothing to do with your major (unless you are in writing, communications etc)
That site makes an estimation that people complete General Education requirements in 2 years. 2 bloody years! A Bachelors degree here is 3 years! So that means in America a bachelors can be done in 2 years if you cut out general education!
Josiah Hughes
Nowadays I feel like "a Bachelors degree" is the same as the "Name" field on an application form. Like a requirement or condition to consider your worth. Typically when someone has a bachelors (especially in an in demand field) it essentially saves the employer from saying
>do you have a work ethic >can you handle the work >can you show up on time >can you commit to something
Because what is it like 44% of university students drop out? So it kind of checks those off the list.
Tyler Ortiz
t. faggot who feels entitled to a good job but isnt willing to work hard to get a degree. >hurr durr just a piece of paper
Juan White
Nah m8. Corporations have already realized degrees as useless. They want experience, the paper is just that, paper.
Get the spot through hard work, dedication, and networking. Earn the pay via the same route.
Kayden Flores
ive worked day in and day out with people whom have had the least amount of education possible via community college or some paraprofessional school and its a chore to explain things to them that are out of their "zone of comfort" -- they know aspects of technical practice but they have no notion of how the practice and methods developed and what the practices relate to in other disciplines -- they are even annoyed or fearful of new knowledge
the inflexibility of thought is one of the reasons they will never advance beyond whatever tier they are stuck on; the reason for the exposure to courses in other disciplines is to make the individual more capable of seeing things from different perspectives -- a bonus when dealing with people, or adapting to unknown situations
about ten times a day i hear one of these people tell a client that nothing can be done, and then they come and see me and i address the problem from what could be considered an oblique angle, and then the problem gets fixed
Elijah Perry
Who's the faggot? Me or you?
Fuck I should have mentioned it in the post. I saying that most of Sup Forums dismisses ALL degrees as "just a piece of paper". I'm trying to challenge if a degree in civil engineering is better than experience in civil engineering or the other way around.
It's actually quite hard to say actually. A lotta website publish that earnings of those with degrees make significantly more than those without a degree. They also conveniently leave out a lot of information like what type of degree, experience, field etc...
I don't know it's really hard. I think your method is also legit since if you;re a hard worker, good at what you do and can talk to people and make your boss smile, you should be compensated fairly.
Josiah Hughes
something like this -- not to say that people without a degree cannot be successful -- obviously that's not true, but the degree asserts a standard measure, like a benchmark or calibration, so people have a general idea of what they're dealing with -- and there are outliers in every group, but you pretty much know that if you have a B.S. in engineering in front of you, you know this dude can crunch when its crunch time
Brayden Gomez
I can confirm that, in engineering, those with an engineering degree make much more than anyone without an engineering (or comparable) degree. I’m a creative person who happened to study management. I worked for a tech company and would randomly come up with tech innovations and solutions that the actual engineers either couldn’t come up with in a million years (apparently), or it would have taken them ages (and shit loads of money) to arrive at. The company even spent hundreds of thousands of $ on engineers just to confirm that what I’d proposed wasn’t crazy. Because, how could a guy working in management come up with something these engineers couldn’t? It was a joke. They could have just given me half of that money for those ideas in the first place and it would have arrived at the same result, and maybe I wouldn’t have quit. Anyway, I have a lot of respect for engineers, but the kind of blindness that comes with degrees in it and other fields is a little ridiculous. Especially when in all likelihood, i’d Never be able to come up with those ideas if I’d studied engineering.
Michael Williams
Oh yeah that's also a huge problem, the unwillingness to change. People get too drugged down in their familiar thinking and refuse to adapt. I guess universities are just really different in North America and the rest of the West. I always looked at Universities as a white collar trade school
David Young
How would someone without an enigeering degree have any experience in the field? Standards for engineers exist for a reason. One the other hand, for something like running a buisness a degree is less valuable than experience, in my opinion. You just chose a bad example for your question, since, like most STEM fields you wont get a job without a degree.
Samuel Hall
I made $85k 3 years out of college with only a BS. This data is frightening.
Ian Campbell
btw, you don't get a civil engineering job without a civil engineering degree and being board certified, tardo
Asher Moore
BS in?
Adam Adams
One of the hardest things I've realised growing up is a lot of companies are run like an empire or mini kingdom. Whatever the top dog says is law and you can either obey or walk out.
A lot of companies pour funds into R&D and it's no secret A LOT of company funds are wasted or abused. >Dinner with clients? Order fancy alcohol? Charge to company! >Christmas gifts? Oh it's for....something company related! Charge to company!
I've seen this too many times. Anyway maybe that company it just too stubborn and unwilling to trust non-engineers.
Noah Hughes
I know I know I just couldn't think of a better example.
>You just chose a bad example for your question Yep. silly me. Essentially being an entrepreneur is saying "fuck you I work for myself" which is good if you survive. That's why I find it really strange when people get Bachelors in entrepreneurship and work AT marketing agencies or law firms or something. I thought being an entrepreneur is all about going solo??
Bentley Bennett
Entrepreneurship is a degree? Why even get a degree in it?
Justin Ward
To be honest, I wouldn’t trust a non-engineer to do anything in the realm of Civil Engineering. Way too much liability exposure
Luis Hughes
>implying it's often times not I out-earn all my wageslave peers by a triple digit margin in a software eng job, and I don't have a college degree.
Tyler Walker
Universities nowadays have all sorts of weird degrees. I think the weirdest one I saw at my uni was get this, A PHD in life and resilience
Additionally everytime I go on facebook my university endlessly promotes degrees that are looked down upon or don't have very good job prospects such as music or social work. Since I'm doing accounting my lecturer posted the 2015 university cash flow statement and it made perfect sense. The university receives A LOT of government money by accepting students and even more when they graduate. So the government looks at the pass rates and allocates endowment accordingly. Of course the endownment is no where near engineering or science but it's quite substantial. Trick people into majoring in something easy, pass them, don't care about their job prospects and cash in on all that sweet government money
Anthony Anderson
If you can't do Calculus you aren't an Engineer.
Evan White
That’s impressive. An engineer must have come up with that one.
