When did exactly things go wrong for the mahou shoujo genre?

When did exactly things go wrong for the mahou shoujo genre?
How did we go from timeless masterpieces enjoyable by everyone like Doremi, Sakura and Princess Tutu to poorly written pandering schlock full of pretense like Madoka and Flip Flappers?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wish_Upon_the_Pleiades
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I want Cockona to sit on my face.

I've seen some mahou shoujo fans say Sailor Moon was what killed mahou shoujo.

If you like anything after Sailor Moon, then the problem was probably that children stopped watching anime, so only Precure can survive. If it weren't for Precure and seinen, mahou shoujo would have been extinct for 15 years already.

Madoka is not enjoyable by everyone but it's okay, same for Flip Flappers, though it was very poorly written unlike Madoka.

>I've seen some mahou shoujo fans say Sailor Moon was what killed mahou shoujo.

Why is that? The only real difference I know of is that Sailor Moon was the first (I think) with a mahou shoujo team, whereas everything before that almost always had a solo magical girl.

>Madoka
>not poorly written
Please.

Sakura ruined the Mahou Shoujo genre.

Maybe the focus on battling and action.
They did explain, but I can't remember exactly what they said.

How so?

Lemme go get my fedora so I can tip it to you

Watch houkago no Pleiades.

>zombie Gainax
No.

It became too self-aware and lost its earnestness which was a big part of its charm.

Just because you don't like the narrative does not make something poorly written.

The mahou shoujo is a dead genre like mecha.

Madoka has the most flat, monodimensional characters in the entire genre.
Well, before FliFla aired at least, Papika and Cocona were characterized even more poorly.

>I'll declare this show is shit before even watching it because all the cool guys are at Trigger now

That and the tiny but dedicated circlejerk on Sup Forums that is always a red flag for overrated shit.

>judging a show by the fanbase
You just keep revealing yourself to be more and more retarded.

Heartcatch was one year before Madoka, and Pleiades was one year before Flip Flappers. Fuck off. Also,
>timeless masterpieces enjoyable by everyone
You don't seriously believe this, right? The average adult male would scoff at the concept of watching Doremi.

This kind of thinking was exactly why Pleiades flopped. Hell, I'm willing to bet that the anime would have made more money if it was animated by anyone OTHER than Gainax because nobody wanted to give them another chance. While in reality the show is better than everything Trigger has made so far except for LWA.

Pleiades is magical, a pure and sweet mahou shoujo story that everyone should give a try.

The average adult male would scoff at the idea of watching a Takahata series too, does that make it not enjoyable by everyone?

...

Too many franchises appealing to people who aren't into magical girls without the earnestness of the magical girl shows that inspire them

Examples:
>Magical Girl Raising Project
>Madoka Magica
>Genei wo Kakeru Taiyou/Daybreak Illusion

There's lately been heavy focus on mahou shojo shows with deconstructions/subversions of preexisting magical girl tropes.

However, these shows tend to play up the darker aspects without putting any real heart into the themes that underlie magical girl shows

As a result, we end up with many pseudo-dark magical girl flops that only draw edgeshitters that don't like the "girlyness" of magical girl shows but like the girls

Well you are not making it easier not to.

Good thing stuff like Matoi exists then.

Yes? How is this even a question? If most people aren't into a certain kind of thing, then obviously that's not going to be enjoyable for everyone.

>Want's a modern mahou shoujo
>Isn't willing to give the best modern mahou shoujo a try.

It makes me sad. because I legitimately think Pleiades is one of gianaxes' best.

The characters are so pathetic that it falls into bathos in my opinion. If the characters were a little less sad it would have been a lot better.

What's that image supposed to be implying?

The other user is right, the more popular something is, the more likely it becomes for a hard-core fanbase to exist.
Don't judge something by them.

Why isn't there a show with Magical Boys being ripped with muscles trying to save the world from Magical Girls.

Set the bar too high

Akage no Anne certainly is for everyone.
By your logic no anime could ever be "for everyone" because most people will never give it a try.

Kamen Rider is literally magical boys.

Need better artstyles/art direction

Madoka was mediocre, but the character designs and music were top notch allowing it to gain attention even beyond magical girl fans

Many recent magical girls have art styles that are off putting due to inappropriate overstylization or genericness

Genericness is arguably a result of 2010's moe/anime culture however since there's an art stagnation that plagues this era moreso than 2000's anime

>The average adult male would scoff at the idea of watching a Takahata series too, does that make it not enjoyable by everyone?
What the fuck?

Kamen Ra..
>ripped
Your average shonen MC

They all have a very similar design I guess.
However, contentwise at least Nanoha and CCS are very different, but since I'm not much versed in Mahou shoujo I don't know the other two. Design is not story, so I would consider it a minor point.

How many grown men you know that would consider watching Heidi?

I personally loved the art style of Flip Flappers. The characters looked vibrant and striking and the simple designs made them look good in nearly every frame.

/thread

The character design of FF is too stiff making the characters lack expressiveness.
Even Mitsuo Iso criticized this.

Jesus christ. I looked up the plot summary on wikipedia and it's probably the worst written article I've ever seen.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wish_Upon_the_Pleiades

>Subaru, a girl who is chosen by an alien, a Pleadian, to become a Pleadis. The duty of it is to collect the fragments of the Pleadis stars. Later revealed, before Subaru and the others becoming into a Pleadis, the Pleadian has 100.000 Pleadises and the others caught an accident when the battlefield of monsters were given, all of them losed accept Nanako.

Good point

I once read a humorous comparison that makes the point that Bleach is essentially a Mahou Shounen show.
It was three years ago, no way I can ever find it again.

Who is this testicle tamer?

I'm confused by your logic. How is something that's not appealing to the average person supposed to be for everyone?

I've seen the show and I have no idea what any of that paragraph means.

My guess: the author doesn't speak english properly and no one gives enough fucks to correct anything.

I assume Anime articles are often written by underage kids.

what was meant by this? Does "stiff" have some connotation in Japan that would make this readily apparent or is it pure wank criticism?

When the primary target audience went from young girls to older men.

...

>Akage no Anne certainly is for everyone.
Please explain what that means, then. Does it just mean "I think everyone should enjoy it?" Because that's nonsense.

If your definition of for everyone is "most people would consider watching it" then there's no point of discussing, as every anime would automatically be outside of the definition.

Just compare the expressiveness of Dennou Coil's characters, or even LWA's from this season, to FF's ones' and you'll see what he meant.

I think you're getting meme'd.

But bleach is trash, even by WSJ standards

Dennou coil and LWA characters go off model in order to be expressive in ways that humans are not. Doesn't seem to be so much a character design issue as a directorial one. Furthermore Dennou coil and LWA have far more flippant tones (ironically) than flip flappers. Criticism from a master is always worth listening to but it's also worth examining.

With how much fujo shows seems to sell, a show like that would be pretty succeful.

There's always been two sides to the Maho shoujo genre, one cute and fluffy the other sexy and edgy. Been that way since Sailor Moon and Devil Hunter Yohko.

Sort of, but if they were making shows for the Big Friends that actually watch Precure and the like, I don't think we'd end up with stuff like Madoka. It's writing magical girl shows for (and I suspect by) people that don't actually like magical girl shows.

>Panty & Stocking
>Kill la Kill
>Luluco
Is Imaishi single handedly keeping mahou shoujo alive and fresh?

>any of those except arguably KLK
>mahou shoujo

Majokko Meg-chan had more than one magical girl. Sailor Moon was the first to make the show about combat and JUSTICE

I miss my princesses so much.

>pretense
>Flip Flappers
It was a story about two girls who go off on magical adventures to other worlds. It wasn't trying to trick you into thinking it was this deep, philosophical work.

WHY CHILDREN SHOW ARE ALLOWED TO HAVE GIRLS THAT SEXY?

P&S is more of a mahou shoujo than KLK.
And Luluco could easily be considered a magical girls origin story.

Less is more.

I sincerely doubt that Urobuchi doesn't like magical girl shows and wonder just how many people that enjoyed Madoka were brought into anime by Sailor Moon and CCS (I'm guessing the number wouldn't be insignificant). I think you're assuming they must not like Mahou Shoujo because you don't like Madoka and creating an "us versus the other" paradigm

>It wasn't trying to trick you into thinking it was this deep, philosophical work.
It still succeeded at that with a huge part of the fanbase.

Tell that to the general.
And the director even confirmed their fanwanks.

have you never been exposed to psychology at any level of schooling?

Because it is a device driven narrative instead of a character driven one

Again, you just don't like the narrative

Posting in a fitting-in thread.

What the fuck am I reading

Madoka isn't a mahou shoujo.

I sincerely doubt Urobochi knows or cares much about the genre. Just consider how Madoka takes more cues from Kamen Rider or Bokurano than from any actual magical girls show.

Characters being plot devices only useful to push the narrative further is sign of bad writing.

Im sad that no other mahou shoujo show tried to replicate madoka's visual and music, instead everyone focuses on the edginess just like this thread.

I didn't really get the impression that Urobuchi know or cared about magical girl shows. The things Madoka takes from the genre are mostly window dressing like transformations.

In the Western anime community, the Madoka fanbase is far, far larger than the Precure one. Most Madoka fans don't give a shit about little girl cartoons. The converse isn't true.

I know right? Hopefully Japan wises up and produces a 24 episode anime about best magical girl.

No, it's not.

Flip Flappers did use Jungian psychology as the basis for creating their mental world but how is that deep and pretentious? It wasn't trying to critique or validate those ideas; it was just something the director thought was neat so he put it in.

Well, I guess you must be right and every accepted convention about creative writing wrong then.
Thanks for the help.

The essence of mahou shoujo is really escapism. But when the target audience was young girls, the escapism was basically the fantasies a young girl would have: transforming into an adult, getting the guy she likes, etc. The often ended with the protagonist losing her powers as a sort of symbol of coming of age, where the childhood fantasies were discarded for the reality of adulthood. This is why even early mahou shoujo shows (Sally, Minky Momo, Akko-chan) often had bittersweet endings.

Mahou shoujo aimed toward older men is also escapism, but rather than having the overall message be one of leaving fantasy for the real word, it instead embraces escapism wholeheartedly. Rather than having the darker moments be about the unpleasant emotions in more realistic situations (that the girls' magic was often unable to deal with), now mahou shoujo shows think that darkness means gratuitous violence and sexuality, which makes it less real and more fantastic. But that's precisely what the hardcore otaku fanbase wants. They don't want themes that hit too close to reality, they want heavy melodrama. That's where shows like Madoka come from.

Need more cute H magical girls

he used it even more sparingly than persona 1-2.5 so I agree it's not exactly deep nor pretentious but it does make his story more interesting. People will always look for reasons to hate on any sort of intellectualism because it makes them feel inferior if they "don't get it" Instead of asking for help with understanding how or why symbolism exists they claim that it doesn't and try to shit on everyone who can see it as clear as day.

>Madoka has the most flat, monodimensional characters
No, you just dislike the characters. This is the go-to argument for anyone who tries to "seriously" discredit the series despite the fact that it's utterly false.

>The often ended with the protagonist losing her powers as a sort of symbol of coming of age, where the childhood fantasies were discarded for the reality of adulthood.
>they don't want themes that hit too close to reality, they want heavy melodrama.
As someone who likes themes tied with real life, I'm ok with that.
There are so many stories about giving up fantasies and accept reality this trope's become stale, boring and predictable.
I'd rather have young magical girls killing each other than giving up their powers because the real world is calling.

Meant for

Madoka has objectively worse characterization than Sakura, Doremi, Usagi, you name it. And her friends are the same. It's not a matter of taste.

No

Why the fuck you say so?

Any kind of literary resource and narrative style can be done well or wrong, there is nothing great of bad by default

magical girl elitists are the worst. they're basically the weeb equivalent of bronys looking down on people for liking shows not made for little girls.

It was always shit.

Madoka is a character drama.
And it has characters that are glorified plot devices.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that something isn't right with it.

Good thing not all adult-oriented mahou shoujo fall into that latter category.

I agree with the first part, but I'm not convinced by the second. I don't think it's a drive for melodrama so much as novelty. Some shows feel like they came up with a twist first, and then wrote around that. Melodrama is a not very surprising consequence of that.