A. Recon flights over countries like Syria or Iraq
B. Bombing runs over countries like Afghanistan
C. Bombing and recon over countries like Chad and Mali
D. "Training" missions in the Baltics to protect against the big bad Russian wolf (which is one of our important trading partners and actually is a good friend)
Is the F-35 superior cost-utility wise over the Typhoon for these jobs? I mean, 200 million a piece and 20,000 per hour for a glorified picture taking plane? Really?
>Sputnik F-35 is designed to actually have a future unlike the Typhoon & better production capabilities do ensure a more cost effective system.
Christopher Kelly
>germany will never wipe its hands clean of the blood even in a thousand years how do you sleep at night?
Zachary Price
Little fix for D
It's not called "Training" it's called the Baltic air policing missions. And if the Poles can do it with Mig29's I don't think you need a f-35 for that.
Elijah Gray
F35 a shit Based krauts
James Clark
>Sputnik
Julian Hill
Explain.
Why does the Typhoon not have a future, but the F-35 does? The F-35 is more expensive and not produced in Germany. Per hour flight costs of the f-35 are more than double that of the Typhoon.
Gabriel Foster
Also the VTOL meme will be useful to nations without true carriers as they can now achieve air superiority and provide air support, great for counter insurgency operations.
Luis Anderson
unit cost of the f35A is gonna be 89 million in 2018. Germany also already ordered 12 i believe.
when it comes to bombing, the f35 outclasses the Typhoon by a mile.
Eli Young
Nothing wrong with killing some animals.
Leo Cooper
>not buying le rafale
The only true mistake
Cameron Mitchell
Given how the F-35 has only been out for two years and has almost caught up to the Euro in terms of production, and the cost is continuing to decrease per unit it makes more sense to buy in than to opt out.
That's quite literally the point with why the U.S. does these things, it keeps it's (((allies))) on the level.
Colton Allen
I just want my navy fighter jets back
Nolan Barnes
>unit cost of the f35A is gonna be 89 million in 2018. Better compare the all in package costs and maintenance and ops costs for 20 years per unit. The F-35 is about 50 percent more expensive than the Typhoon on the overall packaged deal costs for obvious reasons... the F-35 is more advanced and way more complicated and delicate (e.g. the stealth coating may not be scratched).
>Germany also already ordered 12 i believe. I think that is Denmark, not us.
>when it comes to bombing, the f35 outclasses the Typhoon by a mile. Depends, if you talk about external hardpoint non-stealthy bombing, it is about the same. For stealthy bombing, the F-35 is the choice, albeit at half the payload. Germany does not seem to ever need stealthy bombing runs ever, so this advantage is sort of not relevant.
Kevin Long
kek
Jayden Phillips
Hey, its not that bad, we switched this year for f-16
Grayson Reyes
Muh Dik
Nathan Parker
Your infographic is dead wrong and retarded. That plane is the x32, f35s competitor during test flight and the f35 can only barely do supersonic.
Isaiah Allen
The Typhoon is a fine plane, but I wouldn't want to have to go looking for an F-35 with it. The Typhoon also won't benefit from economies of scale the same way the F-35 will. The F-35 is the US' mainline plane for the next, what, 25 years? And frankly because it's the US, the over/under that we'll still be flying that airframe in the 2070s is pretty good.
Oliver Price
>Given how the F-35 has only been out for two years and has almost caught up to the Euro in terms of production, and the cost is continuing to decrease per unit it makes more sense to buy in than to opt out.
The return on the taxpayer and econ is pretty high if you produce the Typhoon in Germany. The return on the German taxpayer for buying US produced F-35 is non existent. Lockheed may offer assembly of US parts in Germany, but that is a scam.
As to costs, don’t get fooled by the basic F-35A unit cost, the Typhoon is cheaper overall, nobody denies that.
Capabilities are the best for tge F-35, but do we need those capabilities?
Adrian Turner
Actually on that list, the f15SE is the way to go. No contest. Updated, proven, and fly circles around the Eurofighter
Adam Morris
Does Germany even need a fighter?
Does the US?
Parker Flores
>The F-35 is about 50 percent more expensive not for long, the f35a is dropping costs at a very high rate. expect another 10 mill to be dropped in 2019-2020
>.g. the stealth coating may not be scratched). the f35 RAM are very durable and isn't prone to failure like the f117 was. it's also easier to maintain VS other coated aircraft. I work with a bunch of guys who maintained the B2 bomber in the 90s. that bitch is next to impossible to repair in a reasonable manner.
>Germany does not seem to ever need stealthy bombing runs ever dude what? the 1st thing you do is find and destroy enemy air defenses. the German air force spent a great deal of time using stand off weapons to destroy SAM sights. something a f35 would be perfect at.
Jordan Turner
More capable in penetrating enemy airspace and far superior bomb truck. No, it isn't against 3rd world countries, but resurgent Russian threat to stability in Europe. You already have Typhoons for air defense missions.
When it comes to economy, Typhoon would probably make more sense as it is built largely in Europe, but as design it isn't as future proof as F-35. Germany is teaming up with French next generation fighter-bomber, but that is at least 15 years away. Also why not both, if you need to bolster defenses. Typhoon for domestic jobs and to give current fleet better economics. Luftwaffe is pretty weak air force for nation as big as Germany. Also your Tornadoes are getting very old.
That infographic makes me smile. A fucking X-32.
John Thomas
> The return on the taxpayer and econ is pretty high if you produce the Typhoon in Germany. The return on the German taxpayer for buying US produced F-35 is non existent. Lockheed may offer assembly of US parts in Germany, but that is a scam.
You seem to think your country is nationalist and will do what's in the best interest for it's own defense instead of relying on a foreign Government that places it under it's nuclear umbrella and has greater plans for a global alliance.
Jordan Walker
>US forcing anyone to do anything
heh
Cameron Ross
Good question. Unfortunately they need to be kept, until it is proven they are out. Not just theorized.
Oliver Thompson
>The Typhoon also won't benefit from economies of scale the same way the F-35 will.
Ok, let’s assume we buy 120 jets. Norway bought 52 F-35 for 7.5bn USD, but Norway has paid into dev costs as a JSF partner. Let’s assume 20bn for 120 jets and final assembly in Germany (value: about 25 percent of the purchase price) and another 30bn for 25 yrs of ops equipment, US ammo and spare parts. Total is 50bn, 5bn of which spent in Germany. Maybe 5bn in set off deals for German companies in the US we would not have gotten without a F-35 purchase.
Compare this to 120 Typhoons. We bought 140 Typhoons for 13bn dollars and operate them on slightly above F-16 ops costs. All in, 25 yrs ops and unit costs is probably 35-40bn, 70-80 percent spent in Germany, the rest in France and Spain.
I think this is a no brainer, econ wise.
Landon Williams
The F15SE exists on paper only. It is a complete redesign with internal bomb doors.
Carter Thomas
>wtf I love the JSF now The thing was an awfully overpriced shitshow for years but they seem to have gotten their act together. As cost drops to 89 million (I believe?) by next year it’s really not a contest anymore.
Charles Turner
I'd rather see Deutschland's airforce flying kites and RC choppers given the amount of hajjis in your nation these days. Fuck I'm glad you don't have nukes.
Carson Lopez
>be flying the f35 >suddenly a bunch of migs roll up >they open their cockpits >they showcase a bunch of clubs >OH SHIT >they get even closer, the f35 cannot outrun the migs >they're almost within spitting distance as the f35 cannot outclimb or outturn a mig >the f35 died due to clubbing, as a baby seal.
Ian Morales
>resurgent Russian threat Why does a 3rd world country scare so many people?
OOGA BOOGA!
Mason Long
You should buy the superior Russian plane.
Kayden Anderson
>You seem to think your country is nationalist and will do what's in the best interest for it's own defense
Germany is China tier nationalist when it comes to econ and industry, mate. There is a reason we dominate international exports. We give a fuck about killing other countries with our superior exports... and unlike half of Europe we purchase little in terms id US weapons and actually sell way more in parts (e.g. diesel engines for tanks) to the US military than we buy from America.
The only bigger US equipments we use are 38 ML270s, Hueys and NH90s.
Carter Price
>What's that on the MIG's? >Roaches Oh no that sucks, welp time to die like a bitch comrade and have alpha Putiekins cuck out like he does with Chechens
Jayden Rivera
We gifted those East German Mig 29s to Poland for 1 euro 15yrs ago. They now make up the core of Polish air defense...
Adrian Rogers
Im not seeing the effective difference between an f22 and an f15se given the stealth package alone
The F-35 doesn't even fucking work properly, so yes.
Ethan Williams
>Also the VTOL meme will be useful to nations without true carriers as they can now achieve air superiority and provide air support, great for counter insurgency operations. I'm pretty bloody disappointed Australia rejected the option to refit our LHDs to F35s. Australia could easily have achieved fixed-wing naval air assets and all the capabilities that come with it. Especially useful for a nation like Australia where our air bases could be 1000s of km from the action. Not to mention the force project ability.
Parker Clark
I seriously want our politicians to hang for buying that piece of shit aircraft. Latest news is that the F35 is too loud to operate from the base it was intended, since it's more than the double the db of the F16. Houses need to bought and torn down by the state since their value is essentialy 0,- We haven't even received this glorified walmart shart bucket and it's causing problems.
Justin Murphy
You guys have it the worst, by shoving your ass on the fence post between US and China you can't be too strong, and the fleet that supposed to protect you can't even pilot surface ships.
Isaiah Cook
>Why does a 3rd world country scare so many people? Russia is far more capable as military power than it is as economic power.
Three words: AMRAAM, CUDA and Meteor. Russians don't have single fighter that can reliably detect
Purchase costs might be cheap due low Russian wages, no tech transfers. Overhauls in Russia. Engines that have to be replaced multiple times during lifetime of plane. Russian planes aren't really cheap.
Nope. F-16C/D Block 52 is core of their air defense.
Robert Collins
>Russian planes >Superior HAHAHAHAH
Gabriel Torres
>They use the Mig 29 as an air dominance fighter and the F-16 as a ground attack plane. They have 30 of each. Look it up. Their long range air to air missile are all used on the Migs. Their F-16 are sidewinder only equipped... plus bombs.
Bentley Wright
-
Luke Martin
>Russia is far more capable as military power than it is as economic power. uh huh. I read the same thing in the Lockheed Martin brochure they hand out to idiot congress critters
Nathaniel Jenkins
Isn’t Denmark a great American ally?
Isaiah Baker
I've said this before and I'll say it again, Australia's best option for military security is to invest in nuclear power and a domestic space industry. Both of those would offer significant peacetime dividends while massively reducing our nuclear latency.
Australia with >Even a small nuclear missile capability (ideally launched from our upcoming subs, or nuclear versions of the same) >Missile defence system overseen from the Jindalee radar network >Ship-based F35s >Expanded subs and drones to patrol our northern waters would be able to defend itself just fine. [spoiler] Assuming our government has just sold itself wholesale to the chinks by then [/spoiler]
Daniel Garcia
>american death traps
troop transporters are a mistake
Jonathan Morales
>The only bigger US equipments we use are 38 ML270s, Hueys and NH90s.
NH90 isn't fucking American. If it would be it would have been delivered on time and it would work as it was supposed a decade ago. It Franco-Dutch-German-Italian clusterfuck that is barely operational, more than decade behind schedule and everytime someone deploys those spare parts deliveries will lag behind months and operational readiness of aircraft drops to level where training of air mobile troops will become endangered.
Jeremiah Ramirez
yeah its a bit depressing to think of it. all this talk about defense when we're letting the shitskin foreigners in through the front door
Jaxon Bennett
Yes. It seems that any time the americans need soldiers with more than one active brain cell they have to call us to help. Sad.
Connor Stewart
>F35 >cost effective >each unit costs twice as much as an Euro fighter and 2.3x as much per flight hour
Lincoln Sanchez
Denmark has literally never participated in a war since like the 1800s lol
No, this is just them trying to refuse daddy trump
Asher Phillips
>american education
Daniel Nguyen
daily reminder that the f-35 is a strike fighter, germany needs better multiroll planes
Brody Roberts
pretty sure we won't buy those. we'll build our own meme plane together with france and italy.
well we may buy 10 or 12 F35 to play nice but in the end the setup is unacceptable...
that piece of shit is worse at protecting the users privacy than a shitty android phone... it's basicly sending all it's operational data to the us and needs an nsa officer at the base to ok it's every flight...
however in terms of gaining knowledge by taking it apart... i am fine with buying a few^^
Chase White
Nope. They have AMRAAM C-5 in use with F-16 and they just ordered a batch of 150 C-7's. MiG-29's aren't used for ground attack as it's avionics and weaponry isn't useful for that, too damn obsolete. They also have Su-22's that can deliver unguided munitions far more accurately than MiG-29, but those will need replacement soon... and same applies to MiG's. Most likely more F-16's or F-35's.
>uh huh. I read the same thing in the Lockheed Martin brochure they hand out to idiot congress critters If you haven't noticed essentially every European country has disarmed themselves and turned their armies into you sidekicks for 3rd world country excursions. Only exceptions being Finland, Norway and Poland. To put it in perspective. Finland has about as many operational Leopard 2's as Germans have themselves. Poland has more Leopards than Germans.
Basically only European NATO countries that are even close to NATO recommended budget levels are UK, Poland and Estonia. Finland isn't in NATO, but if we did some magic with accounting... switching to NATO accounting, we would be pretty close that 2% of GDP.
Ask Austrians how cheap Eurofighter is... They are retiring theirs because plane turned out at least twice as expensive to maintain than it was Eurofighter consortium said.
F-35 will cost about 80 million US per plane when full rate production will be reached and life cycle costs will be about 240 million per aircraft. Eurofighter isn't much cheaper, it might be even more expensive.
Austin Moore
Lemme guess, you consider sending 20 numale soyboys and some bicycles to Afghanistan as some kind of epic big deed that everybody should bow their heads toward.
Danish soldiers aren't even registered on the map. Your country's contribution to the last major conflicts, every single one, is minimal and pointless, done more for your benefit than anyone else's because your troops lack experience and it wouldn't do you any good to sit around pretending you have a real army.
Leo Reyes
You see this moron This is the kind of fucking retards our dumb ass government not only cooperates with, but keeps buying shitty weapons from. They need to fucking hang for treason.
Julian Hall
Shitty plane with ineffective stealth, no operational support ability, no dogfighting ability, limited range and loadout due to 'stealth' design. The only things it does well are already done better by drones
Typhoon isn't a great aircraft but it's better in almost all respects, cheaper both per unit and per sortie, and pilots already know how to fly it
Colton Campbell
I thought the Typhoon was last gen.
Jose Morgan
>Finland has about as many operational Leopard 2's as Germans have themselves
Don’t ger fooled by the tabloids. We have 250 operational Leos, even though some are in maintenance every few months. The Leos are so low in numbers by design, we downgraded from 3,000 because our generals and politicians made a conscious decision to fight ground armies that may attack with tactical nukes and no heavy tanks.
This is why we only have 250 operational Leos, which are never deployed elsewhere... while Austria has e.g. 100 Leos while being only 1/10th the size of Germany in terms of population.
David Wilson
Blah blah blah Russia is fucking POOR! Their regular army is full of retards that can't get regular jobs. They have an El Presidente with illusions of grandeur but beyond his dreams and the imagination of Cold Warriors the Russian threat is pure fantasy.
Jose King
They have put 3-1 f15 vs f35, the 15's almost always lose without seeing the 35. Keep in mind the f15 was the best air to air fighter in the previous generation and the f35 is a joint strike fighter. Modern anti-air tech has made any non-stealth offensive aircraft obsolete. theaviationist.com/2016/06/27/f-15e-strike-eagles-unable-to-shoot-down-the-f-35s-in-8-dogfights-during-simulated-deployment/ The F-35 is not a pure air dominance fighter anyway. It is a multi-role strike fighter. Much of the development was to replace the slow A-10, which is very vulnerable to modern anti-air. The idea is to have a stealthy jet, safe at higher altitude, still able to preform "close" air support for a continued time.
The Typhoon and F-15 are great planes, however unstealthed are useless in protected airspace.
They also lack the myriad of other abilities the F35 offers.
Jack Howard
>Ask Austrians how cheap Eurofighter is... They are retiring theirs because plane turned out at least twice as expensive to maintain than it was Eurofighter consortium said.
Yes I'm sure an unwashed NEET like you with no arguments knows better than your country's military, which you just touted as far more intelligent than ours. You're a wreck, kid.
Brandon Moore
>The Typhoon and F-15 are great planes, however unstealthed are useless in protected airspace.
Germany will never be part of an aerial operation over airspace that is protected by sophisticated SAM sites. Our constitution only allows aerial ops over German and EU territory, on UN missions or if there is no UN authorization, in a non combat role, e.g. recon.
This part of our constiution was written by the US after ww2.
Joshua Evans
Our military is brilliant. But unlike you, we don't live in a stratocracy, so they have to take orders from politicians. Fucking dumbass mutt.
Nolan Gomez
jesus christ shut the fuck up already dirty muttnigger
das rite, usa master race and gods of war
Hunter Garcia
Are you f-35 internet defence force? You seem to new at Sup Forums posting etiquette
Carson Morris
Mig 29 was better, still is. 4 million per jet, easy to fix, cheap Chinese parts available and it looks good.
Personally I prefer the he162, German airplanes are still the best. This is what corruption costs!
David Russell
that faggot is probably from /k/
Jaxson Flores
Your military is a joke and can be conquered easily by every single one of your neighbors within 48 hours, including Sweden. You currently have 473 deployed personnel worldwide. Less than 500 full-time soldiers. Think about that, cry yourself to sleep, then go back to your boring, meaningless life that is sustained on the backs of a real military. Remember that you are an ant on a savannah full of tigers.
Cooper Myers
Your jet sucks. Mig 21's out turn it, out climb it and they're proven. Stealth is a meme, air superiority requires ground superiority, just admit it's a scam.
Jayden Ward
Hahaha, /k/. Every America-hating eurotard with no military and every Russiaboo has nightmares about it. It keeps them awake up at night. It's the one place on Sup Forums their shilling always gets BTFO'd.
Jonathan Clark
You can drown a man in shit if you have enough of it, doens't mean shit is worth more than a man. Well, maybe in your case.
Brody Collins
If you ever get in a war against a major power, your planes will have to contend with enemy anti-air. Even in protected airspace they are more vulnerable and take more resources to shield from enemy missiles.
Ryan Martin
It's "delusions on grandeur", you fucking mook.
Colton Morgan
>200 million a piece Kek this is the price of first couple dozen F-35 is just now entering for, price is and will be less than 100 million
If you care about cost you should buy Saab gripens lol
What is Afghanistan? They had battalion in Helmand for like 7 years or so. Company sized contingent in Mazar-I-Sarif for few years more. Their current deployment to RS is about 100 or so soldiers. They literally have fought more in Afghanistan than any other country relative to population size, 40 something KIA and about 200 WIA.
>This is why we only have 250 operational Leos, which are never deployed elsewhere Exactly my point. German defense policy has focused on nice idea that there is eternal peace Europe and main mission of military is peacekeeping. Conventional warfare is irrelevant, 1% or so budget levels and way too many big ticket domestic/European cooperation procurement programs going on since 90's. All delayed and quite messy. Add usual absurdity like German special conditions Cold War applying fighter armament, when your Eurofighters use mostly non-American armament. During cold war US assisted by keeping German missile inventory minimal and instant resupply from USAF stocks in Germany for used weaponry.
Wew. How stupid are you? In early nineties MiG-29 was the most expensive aircraft FiAF evaluated. It was more expensive than F-18C/D. Look the picture here and start to think maintenance costs. >Your jet sucks. Mig 21's out turn it, out climb it and they're proven. Nope. Just no.
Justin Wilson
>If you ever get in a war against a major power, your planes will have to contend with enemy anti-air. With a major power you mean Russia, China or the US? Or what do you mean? Because all these 3 are nuke carrying countries with which war will not be carroed out conventionally, so 0 planes is fine for those hypothetical scenarios.
>Even in protected airspace they are more vulnerable and take more resources to shield from enemy missiles.
And for any real missions required today we could still use F-4s, Tornados and even old WW2 Messerschmidts to do the job.
Lincoln Cruz
...
Luis Johnson
whats funny is you pretending that hes wrong.
Levi Baker
goyim buy our great jjets!
Josiah White
>Germany will never be part of an aerial operation over airspace that is protected by sophisticated SAM sites. Our constitution only allows aerial ops over German and EU territory, on UN missions or if there is no UN authorization, in a non combat role, e.g. recon.
Yes. That is why Sweden bought UH-60M's as stopgap for NH-90 delays and deployed those to Afghanistan as medevac. Norvegians also had Hueys on couple rotations there. Several soldiers from Nordic countries bled to death because German medevac helicopters can't take-off to unscheduled flights without approval from chief of staff or minister of defense.
>including Sweden Nope. You don't have any idea what Swedes have done to their military since 90's. Picture related.
>Chart showing the size of the Swedish Armed Forces 1965–2010. Yellow = number of air wings; Blue = number of infantry regiments; Red = number of artillery regiments; Green = number of coastal artillery and amphibious regiments.
Flyaway cost isn't system cost and that isn't life cycle costs. 250 million is what average life cycle costs for F-35 should be.
Sebastian Wright
This. We're weak and poor, please attack us.
Logan Hernandez
Are you the Finn that thinks SAA used CW in Jobar 2013?
Wyatt Fisher
>russian again baiting people to trap in their deadly country
