>One of the best examples of fake news in the post-communist world is the finger pointing by Russia and Poland towards Ukraine. Instead of looking in the mirror at the mainstreaming of nationalist discourse both countries point to “nationalists” in Ukraine. Yet, populists with nationalistic tendencies receive between 40 and 70 per cent support in Polish or Russian elections respectively, while in Ukraine they are unable to cross the four per cent threshold to enter parliament. Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko’s Solidarity party has never given its support to rallies of nationalists.
>While Polish President Andrzej Duda condemned the hateful messages seen during the November 11th march in Warsaw, Interior Minister Mariusz Blaszczak described it “a beautiful sight” and said “We are proud that so many Poles have decided to take part in a celebration connected to the Independence Day holiday”. The Polish National Foundation, a body with strong ties to Poland’s ruling Law and Justice party, defended the events that took place on Poland’s Independence Day on November 11th. Nationalism in Russia and Poland is a growing part of the mainstream as seen in the unanimous vote by the Polish parliament to declare the 1943 killings of Polish civilians as “genocide”. This was evident during a recent Vilnius conference when two scholars from the excellent Center for Eastern Studies (OSW) harangued me about Volhynia in 1943 and voicing their support for the genocide myth. >The root cause of Russia’s and Poland’s finger pointing is a disrespect for Ukraine and Ukrainians who have never been seen by Russian and Polish nationalists as a real nation. In August 2009, Russian President Dmitry Medvedev sent an open letter to his Ukrainian counterpart, President Viktor Yushchenko, outlining a host of demands to change Ukrainian domestic and foreign policies. One can now hear similar demands coming from officials in Poland. Such a situation forces a question: How would the ruling Law and Justice party react if Poroshenko demanded that Poland be excluded from the EU because its membership is incompatible with honouring Roman Dmowski, the pre-war antisemitic and fascist ideologue of the National Democrats (Endecja) who is honoured by a monument in Warsaw’s Na Rozdrożu Square. Polish President Andrzej Duda has said that Ukraine’s membership of the EU is incompatible with Stepan Bandera. And yet, Bandera never denied the existence of Poles, while Dmowski denied Ukrainians as a nation.
Matthew Flores
>What would be the reaction in Warsaw if Poroshenko demanded the replacement of the “anti-Ukrainian” director of the Polish Institute of National Remembrance, as has Duda of the “anti-Polish” director of Ukrainian Institute of National Memory, Volodymyr Viatrovych who is now banned from travelling to Poland? One also would wonder what the reaction would be in Warsaw if the Ukrainian parliament voted to declare the killings of Ukrainian civilians from 1938-1947 and the ethnic cleansing of Ukrainians in 1947 (the Vistula Action or Akcja Wisla) as “genocide”? >It cannot be denied that the seeds of the bitter Polish-Ukrainian antagonism that exploded into mutual killings in the 1940s were laid in part by the Polish nationalist policies in inter-war Poland. Polish nationalistic policies transformed Volhynia from a hotbed of Ukrainian national communism to Ukrainian nationalism – as exemplified by Danylo Shumuk who moved from the KPZU (Communist Party of Western Ukraine) to UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army) and later became a dissident and political prisoner in Soviet Ukraine.
Isaac Torres
>Poland’s genocide myth >There are three conundrum’s facing supporters of the genocide myth. First, Raphael Lemkin’s definition of genocide is more applicable to the murder of Poland’s military elite in the Katyń Forest in 1940 and the ethnic cleansing of Poles from Galicia and Volhynia by Soviet forces in 1944-1946. Lemkin supported the use of the term genocide to describe Joseph Stalin’s Holodomor (forced famine) in Soviet Ukraine in 1943 which led to the deaths of 4-4.5 million Ukrainians. >Second, Polish historians have sought to find Ukrainian nationalist documents planning or calling for genocide against Poles in Volhynia, but they have failed. Indeed, there is no Polish equivalent of the two-volume, 1,400-page collection of 478 documents on Ukrainian-Polish relations edited by Viatrovych (volume 1 here; volume 2 here). Ukrainian historians believe the reason is because documents and archives would undercut Poland’s genocide myth. In other words, no known OUN (Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists) instructions exist that ordered UPA units to kill Poles in Volhynia.
Julian Howard
>Lemkin wrote that genocide requires a prior ideological propaganda campaign to mobilise people to commit the crime, as seen in Nazi Germany and Rwanda. In 1942-1943 there was no propaganda campaign by the OUN against the Polish population. Indeed, the opposite existed with OUN repeatedly seeking to negotiate alliances with the AK (Polish Home Army) but these efforts were being thwarted by the London-based Polish Government-in-Exile. Both Polish and Ukrainian partisan groups discussed the deportation of Ukrainian and Polish populations and those politically loyal and partisan groups affiliated to the pre-war National Democrats (Endecja) even laid out plans for deportations of Jews in the late 1930s and Ukrainians after World War II ended. The genocide myth is based on the exaggerated claim of a mass attack by UPA on July 11th and 12th, 1943 against 146 Polish settlements. Such a massive operation was impossible to undertake for the UPA units that existed at that time who did not yet dominate Volhynia because of a conflict with competing Taras Bulba-Borovets Ukrainian partisan units. Ukrainian historians do not deny that attacks and killings took place but limit these to an absolute maximum of 20-25 settlements. >Polish settlements were not defenceless, as the genocide myth claims. Polish settlements had self-defence units who had been given weapons by the Nazi’s and the AK and they were often bases for the AK and Soviet partisans. Historian Timothy Snyder has written that the majority of Soviet partisans in Volhynia were Poles (numbering between 5,000 and 7,000) and Jews (numbering between 1,000 and 1,500). Poles in Volhynia viewed the Soviets as potential allies against the Ukrainians and Polish self-defence units co-operated with Soviet partisans and the Nazis in attacks against the UPA. In Volhynia and Polissya there were 100 Polish self-defence bases.
Matthew Price
>A partisan in this conflict – similar to partisans and guerrillas in other wars – is a peasant who carries a weapon and the killing of a partisan could also therefore be described as that of a civilian (Polish Communists reported killing many more “UPA partisans” than existed in Zakerzone because they included murdered civilians). Indeed, Polish and Ukrainian civilians would often join partisan and Nazi (Ukrainian and Polish) police attacks on Ukrainian and Polish villages holding pitchforks and other agricultural implements with the hope of stealing goods from the civilians who had been killed. >Third, how many civilians need to die before a crime is classified as a “genocide”? The genocide claim is discredited by only applying it to killings of Poles and by manipulating dates to begin the Polish-Ukrainian war in 1943. Historians in Ukraine and the West (including Viatrovych who has become a bogeyman to Polish nationalists and yet whom few have read in Poland) do not deny that Ukrainian nationalists and communists killed Poles or even that more Poles died than Ukrainians. What they do dispute though, is the inflated numbers of Polish victims which through the tabloidisation of history now reaches into the hundreds of thousands. Ukrainian historians cite the Polish Institute of National Remembrance as having collected the names of 23,000-31,000 Polish casualties in Volhynia and Galicia.
Dylan Peterson
>Grzegorz Motyka (Od Rzezi Wołyńskiej do Akcji Wisła), one of Poland’s most well-known historians on the 1940s cites Władysław and Ewa Siemaszko estimate of 33,000 Polish deaths in Volhynia. Of these, 19, 000 names have been collected. Motyka expanded their estimate of 33,000 (without explaining how) to between 40,000-60,000 and reduced his earlier estimate of Ukrainian casualties to 1,000-2,000. Motyka’s estimates of Polish casualties in Volhynia are similar to those of Snyder (50, 000). Nevertheless, Motyka’s estimate of Ukrainian casualties in Volhynia is far lower than those estimated by Snyder (10,000-20,000) or other historians of Ukraine, such as Paul R. Magocsi (20,000), Myroslaw Shkandrij (15,000-20,000) and Serhii Plokhy (15,000-30,000). Widely different estimates of civilian casualties in the Polish-Ukrainian war in the 1940s can be found within Poland, between Polish and Western historians and especially between historians in Ukraine and Poland. >Historians of Ukraine and objective historians of Poland, such as Timothy Snyder, place the 1943 killings in Volhynia in historical context that began in 1938-1942 and ended in 1947. The number of victims was dependent upon whether Poles or Ukrainians dominated a region. Poles were in a minority in Volhynia and therefore at a disadvantage. In Kholm, Hrubeshiv, Brest, Polissya and Zakerzone (south eastern Poland) Ukrainians were at a disadvantage and suffered proportionately more. Galicia was more evenly balanced and both populations suffered in similar numbers. In Kholm and Hrubeshiv (where Polish forces began the first round of killings of Ukrainian civilians in 1941-1942) and Zakerzone, for example, upwards of 10,000 in the former and 4,000-5,000 Ukrainian civilians in the latter were killed by Polish forces. In regions where Ukrainians were in a minority, such as these, the UPA acted as their only protective force.
Liam Ramirez
>Although historians of Ukraine and Snyder present different numbers of Poles and Ukrainians who were killed, they roughly reach a similar conclusion that the overall proportion was two Polish to one Ukrainian killed. Ivan Patryliak, whose work on Ukrainian nationalist groups is regarded as the best in Ukraine, calculates that 39,000-40,000 Poles and 17,000-21,000 Ukrainians were killed.
Ayden Hughes
>Poland’s victimisation complex >There are five factors that underlay Poland’s victimisation complex. The first is an unwillingness to accept that Poland was an imperialist power and thereby to only view Poland as a victim of attacks by its neighbours or treachery by its citizens (as in the case of Ukrainians in 1939). Polish historiography does not see a country or people to its immediate east but “wild fields” empty of anything resembling a real nation where Poland, defending the edge of Europe, had a civilising mission. The second, as discussed earlier, is an unwillingness – unlike Ukrainian historians and some historians of Poland such as Snyder – to accept that the killings in Volhynia were not a one-off historical event. They were in fact a part of a bitter war that germinated in the late 1930s and ended in 1947 with Akcja Wisla. >The third is that extreme nationalists not only existed on the Ukrainian side. Polish and Russian nationalists have never viewed Ukrainians as a nation and in interwar Poland anti-Ukrainian policies (which included the burning of hundreds of Ukrainian Orthodox Churches in Kholm and Pidlachia in 1938) meant that few Ukrainians mourned the destruction of the Polish state in 1939. In that same year, Ukrainian nationalists fought against Hungary (and its Nazi and Polish allies) in Carpatho-Ukraine after the dismemberment of Czechoslovakia. In 1943-1944, Ukrainian and Polish nationalists believed the Nazi’s had lost the war and both wanted to take control of territory before the arrival of the Soviets. This was the logic of AK’s “Operation Tempest” throughout Poland. To Ukrainian nationalists, who always viewed the USSR (not Poles) as their main enemy, their memory of defeat in Lviv (Lwów) in 1918 was something they sought to prevent from happening a second time.
Ayden Lee
>The fourth is the pervasive view that only the UPA were criminals while the AK were not. There is abundant archival evidence that the AK, Peasant Battalion and NSZ (National Armed Forces loyal to the Endecja) committed crimes against Ukrainians. Sometimes this was in alliance with Soviet partisans. In March 1944, AK and peasant battalion units participated in the murder of 1,500 Ukrainians in what became called the “Hrubeshiv Revolution”. Former Volhynian AK partisans demobilised by Soviet forces were re-employed in Polish communist and KBW (Internal Security Corps) units that committed numerous killings of Ukrainians in Zakerzone. >The fifth is the widespread myth that only Ukrainians collaborated with the Nazi’s. In fact, both Poles and Ukrainians served in the Nazi police and both these forces committed crimes. The Nazi’s arrested and murdered 80 per cent of OUN’s leaders in the second half of 1941. OUN and AK launched their anti-Nazi partisan struggles at the same time in early 1942. Ukrainian police defected from the Nazi’s in March 1943, nearly a year earlier than the Polish police. Therefore, Ukrainian and Polish police respectively joined the UPA and AK. In 1943-1944, Polish police and the Nazi’s killed numerous Ukrainian civilians in Volhynia. Polish police working for the Nazi’s and self-defence units armed by the Nazi’s contributed the largest number of volunteers to the AK’s largest unit, the 27th Wołyń Division
Levi Price
>Most countries in Europe have skeletons in their closets, especially connected to their imperialist pasts. Of the Axis powers, Germany alone has pursued a policy of rigorous de-Nazification while ignoring until recently its genocide of the Herero, Nama and San people in Namibia in 1904-1907. England celebrates Oliver Cromwell as the father of parliamentary government while Irish history views him as a butcher of Irish Catholics. >There is evidence that nationalism is becoming a part of the mainstream in Poland and Russia, which I argue is not the case in Ukraine – where civic patriotism is dominant. The genocide myth and Poland’s victimisation complex is a product of two factors. The first is the current rise in nationalism throughout Europe and the US. The second draws on historical writing and deep-seated stereotypes and chauvinistic attitudes towards Ukrainians that existed in interwar and communist Poland. These were hidden from view in the 1980s and 1990s when the Jerzy Giedroyc, editor of Kultura journal and the architect of the policy of mutual forgiveness influenced the Solidarity generation and dominated Polish attitudes towards Ukrainians. >A victimisation complex and search for enemies will remain in place as long as nationalism is part of the country’s mainstream. Unfortunately, this will distract from Poland’s strategic objectives of thwarting Russian aggression and supporting Ukraine’s integration into Europe.
Liam Mitchell
BUMP
Samuel Powell
BUMP BUMP BUMP
Ayden Wood
>Jew on a high horse talking shit about poles nationalism and doing history revisionism about their genocides under the soviet (protip: it was shit for everyone except the elite ruling the house, you can be sure the soviet tried to purge Ukraine of dissent too like they did for the rest of the union)
The arrogance of these soulless beings appall me. They eagerly allow themselves the right to ridicule others suffering yet no one is authorized to even criticize them under the threat of being prosecuted for a hate crime. Also I love how he disregard the very history of Poland which was one of struggle against odds far greater than theirs (all the muslims hordes a bit further east who quite often raided the border regions of the balkan & eastern europe for slaves n loot). Or how Ukraine was made from the ground up after the fall of the soviet union with no other purpose than to balkanize the USSR, it has never existed before as a entity and while the cossacks did live in that area, they were part of the Russian empire and were allowed sovereignty within the country
Fucking Jews. Vitriol spitting snakes, the whole lot of them
Nathaniel Peterson
...
Samuel Rodriguez
Leaf post best post ;)
Dominic Butler
>t. Ivan Ivanovich Ivanov
Hudson Sullivan
>T. (((british))) expert on Soviet Studies Taras (((Kuzio)))
Jacob King
Cool story, I've had a few hearty chuckles over this read.
Colton King
>Taras Kuzio Just dropped.
Logan Bell
Ukrainian speaking XD
Wont even read this nonsense.
Benjamin Rogers
Why?
Nicholas Harris
This. >Or how Ukraine was made from the ground up "Ukrainian" national identity only formed in the mid 19th century and was pushed by the Austrians in Galicia (Austrian partition of Poland) on its Polish and Ruthenian peasants to furhter divide and balkanize former Polish territories. And in turn the first "Ukrainian" state formed not earlier than in 1917.
Ukrainian "historians" are really straw grasping and pathetic people.
>Be Cuckraine. >No history. >No culture. >Nationality didn't exist until Austrians literally invented it to combat Poles occupying all government positions in Galicia. >Their ancestors are: Khazar jews, tatar rape babies, runaway peasants and bandits from Russia and PLC. >Every single time they chimped out against Poland they employed thousands of filthy desert mood pedo god worshipping tatars. In return for military help they let their own people be taken into slavery as payment. >No national heroes outside of a balding cuck who got betrayed by everyone and ended up achieving nothing. >Even fucking SS was stunned at the brutality of hohols. >Hated universally by every single one of their neighbouring countries. >No natural friends and allies in Europe. >Most fertile lands in the whole of Europe, still need to import food. >Biggest coal deposits in Europe, still need to import it. >Biggest export are prostitutes. >Economy is Africa tier, even fucking Albania is doing better. >Nobody gives a shit about Crimea anymore. >Their god damn army cannot deal with bunch of chimping out Russians. >Jews are about 0,2% of citizens of ukraine, occupy nearly 60% of government positions. >Turned literally into an IMF vassal state. They do everything these scheming kikes tell them to. >Most hated diaspora in Canada. And it tells you something if fucking leafs hate them more than chinks or shitskins. >Worst HIV and AIDS epidemic in the whole of Europe. >Seconds to worst GDP per capita in Europe, the only one doing less good is Moldova. >Owe Gasprom billions of dollars for unpaid oil and gas
Fuck you hohol
Julian Wilson
>>Seconds to worst GDP per capita in Europe, the only one doing less good is Moldova.
>fake pics >fiction Do you have any legit proof???
Ryder Roberts
Because he's an pathetic Ukrainian idealist and apologist of "Ukrainian" descent.
Luis Perry
>>fake pics >Do you have any legit proof??? Damn aren't you just pathetic.
Hudson James
>The average Moldovan makes more than the average Ukrainian.
Daniel Gonzalez
Fake country .
Elijah Lee
Yes indeed.
Dylan Walker
are fucking ukrainians even human? why do I have to look at what they write? someone exterminate those animals already
Cameron Brown
>someone exterminate those animals already Well lets not go full Nazi tier here. The milk is already spilt so they need to have their own country to not chimp out every now and then, but not in the form it is today as the size of the country is way to big. youtube.com/watch?v=tbZDVOyPRHg
Lincoln Rogers
is this why so many hate ukrainians?
Anthony Evans
substitute ukraine for croatia and the shoe more or less fits.
and albania.
Lucas Lopez
you mean: "why so many people hate child killers?" Thats because here in Civilized Europe killing innocent defenseless kids is a serious crime against humanity.
Sebastian Hill
>here in Civilized Europe where would that be exactly?
Isaiah Carter
I have no clue what this thread is even about because I'm no Euro, but please keep Sharing dead people
Kayden Rogers
How does it feel to be Africa-tier country in Europe? Your history is all about some faggot Hitler declaring you aryan and some german spy Bandera. Not including that your killings of people were most savage probably even more than japs one, thats some next tier subhuman behaviour
Lincoln Lopez
That pic is actually of kids murdered by a gypsy tho. At least when posting about hohols and their crimes, post what they have actually committed:
Jose Foster
this. only ukrainians and germans do it.
Anthony Davis
Хoхoл зaкyкapeкaл.
Dominic Garcia
>EU propaganda >posting this from Ukraine
Anthony Nguyen
but no one cares about dead poles.
Ethan Green
Baтник пpocнyлcя
Ryder Perry
don't forget that ukraine literally just means borderland (ie, the border areas of russia and poland). Literally a made-up country.
Matthew Collins
As always only buttblasted poles with no arguments and russian shills. Sup Forums is a joke.
Christian Perez
>EU propaganda nah, poles are just subhumans
Jace Thomas
>don't forget that ukraine literally just means borderland (ie, the border areas of russia and poland). Literally a made-up country. Exactly, I know that very well: >Ukraina = U+kresu+krainy = U+krancu+krainy Korony Królestwa Polskiego, Rzeczypospolitej Obojga Narodów (Pol-Lit) >Ukraine = At+the+borderland = At+the+end of the Crown of the Kingdom of Poland, Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth youtube.com/watch?v=qqVQmRmlH14 youtube.com/watch?v=D0rpDE4rcYA
Cooper Johnson
Neither did the world when you holols starved to death and resolved to form gangs to cannibalize your own kin
Cooper Gutierrez
t. butthurt hohol
Jacob Young
Ukraine Who gives a fuck what you think. You belong to Russia or any slavic nation that wants you. Your nation is the equivalent of a female jumping from men to men and getting her ass beat up by everyone for being such a cunt. Seriously, who gives a fuck what you think Urkshirt
Jose White
Seriously, Poles should have szabla-ed their ancestors asses a long time ago.
Landon Reed
so why is genocide a myth? I don't want to read all this. Didn't they murder dozens of thousands of Poles? How was this not a genocide?
Lincoln Hernandez
checked
I guess that it isn't the kind of bump that hohol wanted
Parker Ward
I have a question How far back does the hate between Ukrainians and Poles go? Did you guys always hate each other or is it more recent?
>Did you guys always hate each other or is it more recent? there were always tensions but this image of Ukrainian as a wild butcher is rooted in WW2. Before WW2 Poles had some sentiments towards the East and considered it as a place where you can live and work in peace, but after WW2 Poles are scared deeply of East, because they see Russians and Ukrainians as unpredictable butchers
>Since poleshits denied us our right for self-determination but Russians did that as well dude. And besides - all this talk about self-determination is populistic demagoguery. Ruthenians were simply weak and disorganised, so it was natural that they became part, not of an empire, but of a union
Angel Hall
up until chmielnicki it was mostly autistic screeching on both sides cossacks were a bunch of racemixers made out of tatars, slavs and turks they started "rebellions" every other day after getting drunk and butt heads with local Poles it always ended with Poles winning and the remaining cossacks joining forces with them and against another bunch of drunkards that wondered in
but then chmielnicki showed up made deals with russians and started a real civil war that devasted the kingdom but he lost anyway - yet before Poles managed to mop up he ended up swearing fealty to tsar and forcing his comrades to do the same and that was the end of cossack ukraine - it was their own fault but for (((some reason))) they keep blaming us
and since then every time we try to do something together they fuck shit up for no reason
Alexander Price
Ogniem i mieczem, good movie i got a copy from a Polish gazeta lol. Fuck long though
>hej! hej! hej sokoly!
Dominic Martinez
Have you seen your own list? It literally says that cossacks were killing poles and jews for 300 years. How the fuck were you oppressed
You literally have no history, you are fucking nothing
Evan Gray
Since it was made up
Benjamin Watson
>but Russians did that as well dude Yes? How is it an excuse for your actions? >Ruthenians were simply weak and disorganised, so it was natural that they became part, not of an empire, but of a union There was no union. Because there was no actual Ruthenian/Ukrainian state in the Commonwealth, it was part of Crown of Poland. And if it was so weak, why so many uprisings and fighting for independence? You even went as far as teamed up with russians against us.
Michael Bennett
Fuck im so proud of having Polish parents, fuck it ill samefag idgaf. Proud of them teaching me the language, the customs, the culture, and flying me over to visit babcia i familia nearly every summer in my youth.
Gabriel Morales
You fucker don't get that the rebellion wasn't because of "muh nationality", but because "muh social status".
Leo Richardson
...
Easton Brown
>Yes? How is it an excuse for your actions? Tell me, if Ruthenians wanted self-determination, then why did they decide to obey Moscow without rebellions?
I don't deny Poles were (and are) xenophobic but you project problems of 20. century back in the past
Parker Campbell
Can anyone tell me if this is a reputable read? I got it as a christmas present and want to start soon.
Carson Robinson
>It literally says that cossacks were killing poles and jews for 300 years. Yes, because we were opressed and were fighting for our independence. >How the fuck were you oppressed I don't know read some history other than your propaganda. You oppressed Orthodox faith, didn't give us any kind of autonomy, didn't recognize our identity and just polonized everyone. I don't know whether you let them do it on purpose, but jews were exploiting Ukrainians. >Also, ukrainians =/= cossacks And who were they then? >Also, Chmielnicki was polish source
Asher Collins
Interesting... I always wanted to hear the argument both sides I know that historically Poland used to control some parts western Ukraine, but that's about it I can't help but feel like the Ukrainians are the bad guys here, Ether way. thanks for shedding some light on the information
also sorry for taking me long to reply, my internet was fucked up for a few minutes
Christian Smith
>but then chmielnicki showed up made deals with russians That traitor made deals first with the Crimean Tatars tho, in return for money and allowing them to take local peasants in Ukraine as slaves. Have you seen the other two movies of the trilogy? >It literally says that cossacks were killing poles and jews for 300 years. Basically this. >Also, ukrainians =/= cossacks Cossacks were basically a SOCIAL WARRIOR CLASS in eastern Poland consisting mostly of ethnic Ruthenians but also ethnic Poles of Orthodox faith. Criminals and fugitives from the whole Commonwealth travelled to Zaporozhia and the Wild Fields to escape the law basically. >Also, Chmielnicki was polish Yes indeed, after his noble Polish father.
Jeremiah Jenkins
Because people wanted their own independent country and there was for a short period of time. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack_Hetmanate >officially known as the Ruthenian State >The founder of the Hetmanate, Bohdan Khmelnytsky, declared himself as the ruler of the Ruthenian state (or Rus state) to the Polish representative Adam Kysil in February 1649.
Aaron Nguyen
Let's talk about Khmielnitskiy shall we? >born of Michał Chmielnicki, a polish starosta >educated in jesuit catholic college in Lwów >took part in Polish-Ottoman war >his wife got seduced by a polish, moustache wearing noble >he promptly chimped out, gathering the mightly cossack army comprised of runaway peasants and bandits from Poland and Russia >got some victories, got BTFO'd too >his armies regularly slaughtered innocent civilians, mostly targetting women and children, as is of hohol tradition >when the polish king grew tired of the chimp out, Chmielnicki started shitting his pants so he called on to help the muslim tatars of the nearby Crimean Khanate >Tatars helped him out and as a payment demanded that his own people be sold into slavery, Chmielnicki agreed >When even this did not help his cause he turned to the Russian Tsar who, once he took over the Ukraine, swiftly crushed whatever freedoms the cossacks had. So, in summary, Chmielnicki was a polish noble, educated in a polish catholic school, cucked by a polak, sold his own people into mongolic slavery, put Ukraine in Russian hands which eroded the ruthenian culture. >This is the national hero of Ukraine everyone.
Henry Cox
>How is it an excuse for your actions? What actions? >Because there was no actual Ruthenian/Ukrainian state in the Commonwealth, And there was no common "Ruthenian/Ukrainian" national identity then either. >You even went as far as teamed up with russians against us. Excuse me, but it was the traitorous cossacks under Chmielnicki who teamed up first with the Tatars and later after they started loosing with the Russians.
Nicholas Russell
The question is, who the fuck do you even are? Or are you cossacks, ruthenians, russians, poles, jews? You usurp someone else's history and claim it as your own.
Isaiah Wilson
>Yes, because we were opressed and were fighting for our independence. Cossacks were not fucking oppressed, in fact, they were semi-independent pirates and sometimes were even above Crown law. That's why fugitives from the whole Commonwealth travelled to escape the law touching their criminal asses. >You oppressed Orthodox faith, BS, Poland had freedom of religion and everyone that wanted was free to practice their own religion, even fucking Muslims. >source So you didn't know that Chmielnicki's father was a Polish noble? I swear, every Ukrainian I've meet doesn't know this, in fact, they don't know real history at all, besides Viatrovych BS fairytales.
Luis Morris
>Although the novel is the first part of the Trilogy, the film was the last part of Hoffman's version of the trilogy to be made, following The Deluge, which was filmed in 1974, and Colonel Wolodyjowski, which was filmed in 1969. Its this trilogy right? I have not
Cameron Evans
>I know that historically Poland used to control some parts western Ukraine, >some parts western Ukraine, TOP KEK, western "Ukraine" wasn't never even called as Ukraine until the 19th century with the creation of the Ukrainian national identity after the partitions of Poland.
Camden James
Should I tell him that "ukrainians" nobles were on Polish side during the uprising, or is it too much infodump for one day?
Justin Roberts
>So, in summary, Chmielnicki was a polish noble he was mixed, but he was Orthodox. People in the East were confused. Look up Stanisław Narutowicz or Andrzej Szeptycki
Ryan Anderson
>TOP KEK, western "Ukraine" wasn't never even called as Ukraine until the 19th century doesn't change the fact that it was always considered Ruthenia. There was even a term "Polish Ruthenia" so the separation was always acknowledged
Colton Ross
>BS, Poland had freedom of religion and everyone that wanted was free to practice their own religion, even fucking Muslims. Fuck off with your bullshit propaganda. Only your beloved jews had freedom. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Orthodoxy#Persecution_by_Roman_Catholicism >So you didn't know that Chmielnicki's father was a Polish noble? I swear, every Ukrainian I've meet doesn't know this, in fact, they don't know real history at all, besides Viatrovych BS fairytales. So will you give a source or what?
Josiah Lopez
Jarema Wisniowiecki was an orthodox ruthenian too. But unlike hohols he embraced polish culture and was loyal.
Charles Torres
It doesn't matter that it wasn't called Ukraine. It wasn't Poland and Ruthenians weren't Poles.
Charles Bailey
>orthocucks :^)
Aaron Cooper
>Jarema Wisniowiecki was an orthodox ruthenian too. no, he converted to catholicism. Stanisław Orzechowski was ruthenian but he too was a catholic
Ok hohol listen here buddy you shut the fuck up or we dig out Jarema and you know what will happen next.
Owen Collins
>Because people wanted their own independent country That was not the reason of Chmielnicki's rebellion in the beginning, that idea came to him later on during the uprising. >Flag of Bohdan Khmelnytsky. Bohdan (Б) Khmelnytsky (Х), hetman (Г) of Army (B) of Zaporozhia (З) and of his (E) king's (К) majesty (MЛC) of Rzeczpospolita.
Robert Perez
So what? Some cucks willfully accepted polonization, there were people who accepted russification and "Little Russian" identity, there were also people who accepted communism and sovietization. But majority of Ukrainians didn't.
Bentley Foster
some cucks also willingly accepted kike overlords
Jason Sanders
>a polish starosta *a Polish-Ruthenian starosta >he was mixed, but he was Orthodox. Indeed, his father was a Polish noble, his mother was a Ruthenian peasant.
