What would be so bad about to have a brain chip instead of a brain...

What would be so bad about to have a brain chip instead of a brain? Would Sup Forumsnon get nuts when he discover to have a brain chip instead of a brain?

Because it means you were replaced by an artificial copy somewhere along the line, and that copy is you, and you're not who was replaced, but you have to react like him, because you function like him, or perhaps not, because who knows if he would've been what you are, just because you were what he were when he was it and you weren't?

Yes I would freek out if I found out that my brain has been replaced without me knowing it

Nothing scary.

Even if we don't have brain chips, if someone manages to achieve successful safe teleportation of large objects, then that answers and creates more questions of just what is consciousness and self.

I'm kind of with OP on this one. Sure it would be weird and all, but I wouldn't fucking throw myself off cloud city. I'm still alive, it's just that the person I thought I was is dead. Sucks for that guy, but I'm not him, and I'm still alive

Having a brain chip wouldn't be bad only in one case which would be storing yourself/your consciousness on that chip instead of how it was done in the manga. Your normal body starts failing? No problem, just transfer your chip to a cloned one or a mechanical one.

But you have no sense of self beyond being this person, and now that you aren't? What are you? It's easy to be idealistic and say well, it wouldn't be a big deal, but if it actually happened, to you, sitting there? Maybe it's an age thing, because more than ten years ago when I started browsing Sup Forums, I'm fairly certain I said the same thing in the GUNNM threads we had then. Now I know more about how fragile I am. Far lesser things in everyday life can rock me, shock me, upset me, sadden me, than finding out that I'm some kind of bootleg copy, and that I in fact never grew up with my parents, never went to school or played with my friends, that was someone else. It's not an entirely rational reaction, of course, but asking for rationality in the face of such an immense reveal is a bit too much.

The brains and the question are you the original or are you just convincing replication. Since science cannot account for the soul we are looking purely at biology and a brain ship is more cut + paste where the original is dead and a copy exists in its place. For people with a strong sense of individualism and an aversion to transhumanism this is a huge shock. It's like telling you you're not really who you think you are you're just a computer that thinks you are that person

Doesn't seem like a problem to me. As long as I still have the logic pathways necessary to have self awareness, it doesn't really bother me. I've thought before that it's possible you die and get reborn every time you sleep, so it's no big deal. If anything this just means it's going to be way easier to give myself a vessel which surpasses humans. Brains are the last remaining roadblock when it comes to the limits of technology that can house a person, but if the persons mind can exist on a tiny chip, that would make your potential limitless.

I care more about my own life than my memories. As long as I'm alive I have the chance to adjust to whatever fucking thing happens. It'd obviously freak me out, but the whole thing with that guy throwing himself to his death never sat well with me, it was an overreaction

Those are just idealistic words, removed from the emotional gravity and shock anyone would experience. "You" aren't alive anymore, "you" as "you" thought "you" were is long dead, that's the crux of the issue. Dead but not buried.

I think you should get a brain chip that can teach you how to write English properly, ESL faggot.

...

I wouldn't be me, I'd be the replacement. Knowing that there was a former me that actually did all the things in my memories and is now dead wouldn't make me any less dead. I don't know about you, but to me self preservation > identity. The former me failed, but I'm still alive and I'd like to keep it that way

Do you know about that thing they keep repeating in anime all the time? I am me. That's it.

The cells that make me are not the cells that made me 10 years ago, nor the ones that will make me in ten years. But I'm still me.

Identity is in your consciousness (and that consciousness emerges from the physical body), and while consciousness evolves, we don't lose our identity.

I don't see myself getting lost because suddenly, I learn that what made me physically yesterday is not the same that makes me today. Yesterday, I was me, and today, I am me. It doesn't really matter that I am not the same me, but that there's that connection of identity between those two mes.

>"You" aren't alive anymore
This is the core of the matter to me. The individual you thought you were. Here's if not decades ago and you're just their ghost wandering around.

well, it seems it would give you terrible English for starters.

But "I" am the mind in the chip. Whoever the guy was that I thought was "me" Is dead. "I" am a totally different person from that other guy. Whether I am an identical twin, a clone, or a copy of the mind of the person itself, I am still a totally different person. Just as the "you" you see in a mirror is just a reflection and not actually alive, so far as we know, the "me" that I see in my memories is just a reflection of the me that exists now.

You can ask these questions right now. Electrons shift in and out of existence without you knowing, so you're just as real as the chip brain.

>your language program accidentally gets set to espanol

And your whole body is replaced gradually over the years. I'd be more shocked over parts of my psyche being changed like the dude in Demolition Man that gets forcibly taught to like sewing.

"I" is what you have thought of yourself, your idea of self, and that idea is now entirely shattered, or at least up to hte point where it was replaced, and after it was replaced it kept building its idea of "I" on the same notions.
Yes, but those're again just idle thoughts about it. To experience the emotional shock of being told you're a brain chip copy would be something entirely different.

Eh, the worst part is wondering when the fuck it happened, who did it, and whether you have to do maintenance or whatever.

Look user, I am who I am. Once I know that I am not what I thought I was, I can discard that past, perhaps reluctantly, and create a new life and memories for myself. You seem to be upset that we are no as worried as you.

A rare example of a reveal that was not a letdown.

To me, that'd be just another thing in the pile that I can't understand. We live in world where most of the information we supposedly know comes from second hand or further sources. Misinformation is everywhere and nobody has the time or resources to without a doubt know every single thing they say is true. Comprehension is another thing that takes years dedicated study and experience to get to that of profession. I doubt anyone on completely and truly understand the laws behind a single subject (say biology, math, and so on.) Even then human memory is faulty and our time here is short.

Thinking about these sort of things gets to be too much for me, so I'd be easier for me just to accept having a brain chip than fret about the implications and existential bullshit that would come with it. As long as I can shitpost and enjoy my chinese cartoons, I'll be fine.

Nah, I just know you're 100% wrong. It's like thinking that if you were told you had five months to live, you'd be able to take it with stride, because after all, you know that everything dies and it could happen to anyone, but not you. But if you went to the doctor tomorrow and learned you were about to die, your reaction wouldn't have a single thing to do with what you thought.
But I suppose this isn't something that can be imparted through mere words, either, but only with growing experience of your own emotions, identity, and who knows what else influences the insights of a human mind.

>*why not you
Man, that's a bad fucking typo on my part.

>I just know you're 100% wrong
That's projection. It means that you cannot accept that other people think differently.
I'm not going to claim I'm a baddass, but I was never upset with my parents' divorce. When I broke my leg I just jumped on one leg before the shock got to me, and I've abandoned old friends over inane shit. And I've seen more detached people.
You don't know what kind of response we could have. This is a part of socialization that you need to work on.

A divorce between your parents is not comparable to finding out you have a chip instead of a brain. An adrenaline overdose masking the pain of a broken bone is not your entire identity being torn to shreds in an instant. Losing a friend, or even less, deciding to end a friendship, is not finding out that everything you thought you are is either dead or based on implanted memories. Oh well.

Knowing how much time you have left is quite different from learning that you are not made of the things you thought you were made of.

The first induces panic. You think of all the things you wanted to do, didn't, and won't be able to. That can fuck you up really badly, specially when you think you have a lot of time in front of you. It's like that Kaiji thing, about not realizing your real life was all you did until the end.

But the second... what if I told you your leg is actually a prothesis that works exactly like the real thing, completely indistinguishable for you, and anyone that doesn't know where to look, and that it was swapped last night after an accident while you slept. Would you suddenly feel your leg is not yours anymore? You feel no difference, and it works exactly like the one you had, but it's not the same... so it's not part of you?

That wouldn't make sense to me. You feel it yours, and use it as you used yours, with no difference at all, so its yours. And actually that's exactly what happens all the time. Cells die and get replaced, but your leg is still your leg.

And I'm not saying it was, user. The point was that my responses deviate from the expected response somewhat, and that people around me assumed I was trying to be tough because "nobody could possibly be ok with their family cracking to pieces!".
If I tell you that "everything you thought you are is either dead or based on implanted memories" and you claim I'm lying or ignorant, you are as ignorant as I am. What guarantees that my response will be what you predict? Only if you knew me personally could you predict this.
Or is it that you personally feel this matter is huge? What if I say I don't see it like that? You're imposing your priorities on me. It's the same as calling agnostics "fence-sitters" because theists and atheists can't imagine that a person wouldn't care about God.

>It's like thinking that if you were told you had five months to live, you'd be able to take it with stride, because after all, you know that everything dies and it could happen to anyone, but not you. But if you went to the doctor tomorrow and learned you were about to die, your reaction wouldn't have a single thing to do with what you thought.

fuck, this hit me like a ton of bricks. Used to think and feel this same way too, had no idea why people were so scared of being dead or crippled and why they couldn't just accept that one day it could happen to anyone. Then I came down with some fucked up incurable nerve disease and I've spent the last two years in sort of a downwards spiral of doubt and depression. Some days I still can't believe this is happening and I feel like I'm going to wake up any minute the day before it happened and realize this was all a bad dream.

More mad at myself than anyone that I more or less wasted my years before I came down with this. I used to hate my normal, boring everyday life before but now all I can think about is how great that shit is in comparison to now, wouldn't have taken it for granted like I did. sorry for the rant, guess I kind of got off topic for a sec.

tl;dr daily reminder that life's a precious gift and you shouldn't be here wasting it on Sup Forums if you haven't already hit rock bottom. go out and do something with it

last order was fucking garbage you cunt.

Did you just have a fit or something?

buenas tarde, soy fantasma en el concha.

I completely agree with this user. As soon as the "original" and "copy" are separated and are conscious they start having their own experiences. Within time they will be different people, anyway. Not only different from each other, but also different from who they were at the time of the separation.

The problem regarding bio brain chips is, in my opinion, a small one. It is in no way comparable to being told that you only have 5 months to live because you are still very much alive and as healthy as you were before your brain was switched. This problem is lessened by the fact that the physical body is still exactly the same, too. The only thing that is different is the fact that your physical brain was switched.The only way to actually tell that you have a brain chip is to cut your own head open or get a scan.

Add to this the fact that no one else is running around with your brain. There is no other "you" that exists anymore that can interfere with your life. This would, of course, be more of an issue if you were a clone instead. The biggest problem is getting past your ego.

I can honestly say that if I found out right now that my brain had been switched with a brain chip like what happens to the adults of Tiphares I would be able to get through it. Of course, I would be a bit disturbed that someone was messing with my body without me knowing.

...

Soma's plot.jpg

you know they were happy to off themselves regularly before they heard about it

The replacement is just as much you as the original you. If you make a copy of your favorite anime, does that copy stop being that anime? No, it contains everything that made the anime the anime. So sure you'd be a replacement you, but that replacement you is still you.

>If you make a copy of your favorite anime, does that copy stop being that anime?
>implying an original bluray disk is the same as a copy you torrented and burned at home

A ful, 50gb+ uncompressed rip? Sure as hell.

To digitize the human mind without cutting the stream of consciousness, it would have to be done in a specific way that we obviously don't know the order of. Perhaps we'll have to use nanomachines to delicately transition the brain into a non-organic form. I don't think it would be wise to go further, into digital form. It's too reliant on infrastructure and vulnerable to interference. Nano-mechanical all the way.

i would not be bothered, shocked sure? but thats about it, i can move on

But you wouldn't get the nice cover or the print of the disk, the little booklet and all the other shit.

That's hardware. Obviously a digital self doesn't have a penis.
Don't stray from the topic. A digital copy of a mind is the same as the original.

Depends how you define "you" I guess. Two copies are not wholly identical to each other, that's why they're copies (at the very least they are in two different locations). We change over time, so we can't really take "identical" to be necessary for remaining one individual anyway.

That is a very baseless comparison, knowing that your time is up and knowing that you are simply made of different stuff is very different. And regardless of that, you are projecting your own emotions and inability to come to terms with yourself on every person who replies to you. Maybe you don't get it, but not everyone has the same level of attachment to their body. I myself had to come to learn that most people do in fact have a very strong sense of attachment, one which I didn't understand. To me, the body is merely a vessel for my mind, and I only ever thought that prosthetics or a completely new body were cool. In fact I've wished for a long time that I could have the chance, or create the chance, to upgrade my body and improve it's natural flaws. I guess that's a bit of rambling, but my point is that I am not so mentally grounded in the idea of "I" as you seem to be. I've already contemplated the concept of my mind not being the same one from the past that I remember, and it really doesn't bother me. I won't say it is completely meaningless to me, but shock and fear are not the feelings I would have. I would be interested, excited, and trying to think of ways I could take advantage over this aspect of myself that was superior to my previous self. I could have a body as tiny as a mouse, or accelerate at incredible speeds without worrying about brain damage or destruction. You take me too lightly, I have spent my entire life almost completely alone, I have never had a friend, and rarely interacted with other people. I do not mean to make myself out to be cool, rather I am well aware that I am a cowardly person at heart, but my point is that I am not as emotionally weak as you. I'm not going to cry or be upset upon finding that I am not the person of yesterday, that would be completely pointless. As long as "I" am myself, I AM myself, and the individuals who came before or the potential individuals that may come after me are irrelevant to that fact.

If I can replace my fucking dick with a mechanical one, I don't think I'd freak about having a chip replacement for a brain.

If being in different places makes it "not you", then every changing experience kills "you", so there was no unity to speak of in the first place.
There is a core of attitudes, knowledge, aesthetics and morals that stays relatively stable. That is "you". You could argue that I'm not the same as my alternate universe's sportsman/lawyer/hobo counterparts, but their difference is far bigger than "I'm sitting 5m away from the original".

Does the mechanical dick give you any stimuli?

Yes, it'd be (You), until the current (You) died and you scream horribly in your deathbed. While the new (You) puzzled about why the old geezer is screaming.

I think there's a manga/anime/movie that does this scenario already.

If I had a clone that'd just be cool.

I have to wonder what the people arguing for and against IT WOULD BLOW YOUR MIND AND TRAUMATIZE YOU FOR LIFE are like

As a deadbeat schizoid NEET who made no human connections, had nothing notable ever happen in the past and has no future beyond a life split between wagecuckery and artistic input/output I don't see why I'd care about being some sort of duplicate. Like, at all. Should I be worried about the government kidnapping me for 'science' which is really just torture? That would admittedly suck.

Is it 'successful' or rather, 'Ambitious' people who are upset by the idea they'd be a chip? Is it people who believe in 'souls?'

Are they just racist against robots and AIs? Robots are cute, dude
.

It's not you. In this scenario, you're just a synthetic representation of a person. A person who was murdered, whose consciousness no longer exists. There was no transition, just a replacement.

>then every changing experience kills "you", so there was no unity to speak of in the first place.

That's what I was saying.

>There is a core of attitudes, knowledge, aesthetics and morals that stays relatively stable

If you had a clone, their knowledge would presumably begin to diverge from yours, unless they constantly followed you around like a mini-me.

My only concern is that my mind, consciousness or whatever is actually transferred during the process and not end up with something like . Because that would suck. That only creates a separate individual that shares your memories and personality from the time of his creation while you keep on going unchanged.

I guess they're just normalfags? The way they argue reminds me of people who get all butthurt when they realize nothing has meaning. Yeah, nothing matters, so what? Make your own purpose faggots. Stop relying on systems and structures to decide everything for you. Fuck man, just think of the possibilities of being a computer. You would not only be immortal, you'd be practically invincible depending on what vehicle was housing your brain.

Reminder that Alita is a bitch and Zapan did nothing wrong.

Well sure, but the point of divergence would have to be something huge, like an experience of growth, an epiphany or traumatic experience (and those do change people IRL). I don't think I'm especially different from me 7 years ago, or the me on vacation someplace 3 years ago, or even the me that was depressed at some point. When presented with the same problem, we'd all tackle it in the same way, and we'd all enjoy the same music even if one didn't know it before and the other did.

>Alita is a bitch

Which Alita?

Those speculations are pointless, because the computer is not you. You will never be a computer, because you will die for it to just do the same shit you were doing.

>the point of divergence would have to be something huge

Why? If your clone comes back from a vacation to China, where original you has never been, would you go around telling people you've been to China?

I feel it would just be a slow, but steady differentiation as the different experiences mounted up.

And? People die all the time, why should I be upset that I'm identical to a dead person? Fuck, I myself have wanted to end my own life before, so a person existed before me who was my original, whatever. I'm still a mind, a very metallic one, but still a mind. I have arms, legs, and I can think. And I have none of the worries that humans have regarding physical health, I can replace my body at anytime. That's an improvement I'd say.

Yeah I know, and so what

How does that actually affect my life at all

Dead me obviously doesn't care, they're dead

New Robot user wasn't murdered so they have no reason to be any more upset over Dead user than any given starved african child


>just a synthetic
Oh I see, you're one of those people who think there is some spooky supernatural division between 'natural and unnatural'

AKA Robot Racist

It doesn't matter, user. "Steady differentiation" doesn't deviate much unless I lived an amazing experience in China that shook my personal values.
If one me goes to China and the other goes to another normal place, assuming we don't live extreme experiences, we won't change much. Sure, I won't know Chinese, but our opinions on law, art, politics etc. will be the same. Chinese me will tell me about Chinese politics and I will develop a similar opinion, because my core attitude is more important than the Chinese life.
The only way you could get radically different "me"s is through extreme experience or if you clone me very young (because that's when the core is formed).

Alright, hang on. Are you saying "I" am the original "me", or that I'm the chip in the other dudes body? If I'm the original, I'm fucking dead, I don't have the capacity to care. In hindsight, I might wonder why they would bother cutting out my brain and removing "me" when it would have been easier to make a new body and put the chip in that, so we could both remain existing. If I'm the chip, I really don't care. Sucks for the other guy but I'm alive and that's good enough. Whether I have false memories is irrelevant, I can just decide to forget them or remove them as they have no bearing on me, a new being with no real past. It's about as logical as any random person getting upset that they at one point did not exist, for me, the chip, to be upset. If I'm the dead guy, I'm dead. If I'm the chip, I live. That's it dude.

This position argues that the biological hardware is more real than the synthetic hardware somehow, whether in its capacity to produce a better representation of a human or, I dunno, aesthetic values?
Talking about hardware defeats the point. Of course a copy of me running on a playstation is not me. We assume there's a magical PC and software that can successfully run human.exe with full fidelity.

>If one me goes to China and the other

That sounds like two different people. Are you saying they are literally the same person, or are you saying they are two versions of you?

>There was no transition, just a replacement.

I feel like if I slowly replaced parts of my brains with machinery, I'd remain me, even if I ended up with no organic parts by the end of it. What do anons think?

...

So why would this bother me any more than finding out that I'm a clone? If I was a clone with memories installed, I'd remove those memories or abandon them both out of respect for the other guy, who may or may not be dead, and because I want to make my own life regardless of that guys life. It's all daijoubu.

Two versions of me, different only in superficial experience as opposed to core values.
As different as I am from me one year ago, or me before a wound and me after the scar.
I'm arguing that there's no fully static "you" IRL, and that clones wouldn't change their core simply with experience.

Taking into account that your body does this naturally, I agree.

The brain already replaces itself over time. Make of that what you will.

I'll just be bothered by the question of how I transfer my chip out of this inferior meatbag body into something better.

Seems I already have a copy anyway. Hey, other me.

Sure, why not? If it can be done, I think you'd still be you.

Got you. You been reading some Parfit? Sounds similar to him.

I believe some areas of your brain do not replace their cells.

Usually a human would be against the idea of being killed, user. Are you okay? Or maybe you're a filthy fucking synth?

Is that what happened in this manga?

Hello there. I hope you're having fun.

Now battle each other to the death to find out who is the goo and who is the chip.

>Is that what happened in this manga?

No, their brains were copied into a chip and then thrown into a city dump in one go, basically.

I am, thanks.
Nah. Why should I?

Not at all. Is he good, or a meme philosopher? The most philosophical thing I've read is maybe Invisible man

>Why should I?

Because if you don't, you will user. It's either you or you, who are going to choose?

So far as I know I'm a meatbag, just one who doesn't care much about life or death. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a synth though, that just makes me superior to you inferior humans.

>a meme philosopher

I assume you mean like one of those contrarians that /lit/ loves? No, he's a serious philosopher. I have my issues with him, but he has come up some interesting ideas, like personal identity and the nonidentity problem.

I don't really see why he would either though. If he is in fact a copy of me, he would also see no purpose in destroying something simply because it was identical to himself. And if he is not, he is not me and thus would not want to destroy me meaninglessly either, probably. Do you wish to destroy everything which could potentially endanger you? That's retarded.

I don't want to fight either. There will be no conflict.
But this was predictable if we're clones.

Well damn.

Well said, me.

>Type a tl;dr post about 'youness' being a form of functioning diagnostic test for survival and essentially being no more real than a dream
>thread has moved on
well shit

I'll guess this buddha and shitpost is more appropriate now
>2017
>Implying 'the self' is real
>shiggy diggy do, where are you

I want to read your post user.

>youness

Every day's great at your youness!~

Given that "youness" matters only in our minds, and that "realness" is a concept that only we give a shit about, "you" is as real as the mechanism that defines reality anyway. If you believe in reality you believe in youness.

What if I question reality? What if all this is just a figment of your imagination? What if you aren't real either?

If it's YOUR imagination, how come you don't have control over it?

What if? It doesn't matter, you're not changing reality.
Even "mattering" is entirely human. So unless you start changing politics, or decide to stab me, I don't care what you think.