Christianity

Seriously considering Christianity. I mostly makes sense.

My one hang up is the following:
How is it moral that I can be forgiven for my wrongdoing because of the punishment of another?

This seems wrong and morally cheap.

Other urls found in this thread:

copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf
youtube.com/watch?v=GHVcItGf48Y
apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1205
unamsanctamcatholicam---blogspot---com/2007/07/why-do-so-many-catholics-believe-in.html
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

You are not being forgiven for the punishment of Christ, he was not punished.

Rather you are forgiven because Christ was sacrificed, and being a perfect sacrifice, being the Godman and all, any sin can be forgiven.

I suppose I don't see a moral difference. Can you elaborate?

He was killed as a ritual sacrifice, like the ones the Levitical Priesthood would do with animals like Lambs or Cattle to gain forgiveness from God, the animals were not being punished for anyone's crimes.

He was not killed for the purpose of bearing our punishments, but rather for the purpose of being a sacrifice so that we might be saved.

As far as the morality goes, Jesus willingly gave himself up, in an ultimate act of charity to save mankind.

This sounds like Christ is used as a willful scapegoat.

If four friends and I rob a bank, and one of the friends is in a position where if he gives himself up to the police the rest of will be let free. Is it correct to accept this offer?

Renaissance Christianity is by far the most aesthetic religion on the planet.

It's been asleep for over a hundred years though, and the cucks have taken over (((refugees welcome))).
It's our job to rekindle this fire for the coming century.

>How is it moral that I can be forgiven for my wrongdoing because of the punishment of another?
You have stumbled upon a very old argument in Christianity. You've obviously heard the usual answer. Now here is the alternative:
The only sense in which Christ died for our sins is that he came here to restore the message of God, knowing that it would ultimately result in his death, and he was willing to make that sacrifice because he knew that rising from the dead would make his message last long after the usual demons had corrupted it in every other way.
And he was right.

Are you retarded?

This would be more like your 4 friends being brought to trial, and the Judge having mercy on you and giving you a lighter sentence because you were sincerely sorry and were going to change.

Christ can't be a scapegoat because He was God Incarnated in human flesh. God loved us so much He became human for us so that He could bring us back to Himself by dying the death we deserve so we don't have to. In the process He BROKE death and freed us from it, because He lived a perfect human life.

I mean, probably.
That is a better analogy.

Well said. That's what Saint Athanasius said.

idk how to answer that, OP.
But let me point out there's more to Christ's death than the forgiveness of sin. 1 Peter 3:18 says He suffered that we might know God. He died so you may know intimately that Master-Creator of the universe.

This will explain everything and answer all your questions:

copticchurch.net/topics/theology/incarnation_st_athanasius.pdf

But God is God. Could he not have simply said we need not suffer death and skipped the hullabaloo?

>He lived a perfect human life.
And notice that his perfect life included taking a whip and using it to chase the (((merchants))) out of the temple. Depending which translation you pick, it is quite clear that he drove them out by force.
God does not want us to TOLERATE evil. He wants us to FIGHT it.
I say this for the people suckled on that "bend-over-for-evil" philosophy that has come to dominate all church sermons for the last 25 years.

Thanks for answering

>How is it moral that I can be forgiven for my wrongdoing because of the punishment of another?

collectivism.
humanity = 1
humanity died on the cross
humanity is forgiven

By that logic humanity is God.

no, humanity is simply part of God.

tl;dr

>Could he not have simply said we need not suffer death and skipped the hullabaloo?
No. He would be violating his own design principle. We were created in his image, which means we have free choice. We can CHOOSE not to follow Him. We are not houseplants.
I would remind you that the bible not only NEVER says, "God can do anything," but it even specifically mentions several things he cannot do. Most significantly, he cannot lie. he therefore also cannot contradict himself.

Omnipotence is not the way people describe it. Through the Bible it is very clear that God indeed can do everything but the means by which he can do everything are different.
We simply do not understand the mechanisms of how God operates, the same way we do not fully comprehend Trinity.
God as an entity is a very enigmatic figure, most likely it is impossible to explain to mortals how he operates until you achieve Theosis.

you are right, it is an error in Christianity but the rest of it is mostly right

Please research the various fine YouTubes that explains the origins from other cultures which I've ever been given credit

>it is an error in Christianity
I would say it's more of a "common misinterpretation."

No. He gave us free will. We chose to disobey Him, and that caused The Fall of man into sin, and sin is an imbalanced state that seperates us from God. God is perfect and imperfect creatures can't handle the light of His presence. He created us to love Him and be loved by Him, and without giving us free will we couldn't truly love Him. It had to be our choice. To redeem us to Himself, He had to come down among us. There was no other way.

God isn't God if He breaks His own rules. Order wouldn't exist, and He is the very definition of it.

Read that pdf I linked, I try believe it will explain it all much better than anyone here can.

It is very important that the only acts of force displayed by Christ are when people go against the spiritual, not material.
He never does anything to the soldiers or bandits of any kind, only when people directly violate chances of others salvation, like making a market in front of the temple.

>How is it moral that I can be forgiven for my wrongdoing because of the punishment of another?

You're thinking about it incompletely. While condemnation does require a Just God to punish it, the Bible also likens the situation to wages: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

Also, John 3:17-21 says this: “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned; but those who do not believe are condemned already, because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God.”

In doing this, Jesus is becoming propitiation, paying our debt and showing that God is Merciful and Generous in addition to Just, providing Himself as the way to escape condemnation.

youtube.com/watch?v=GHVcItGf48Y

Humanity can share nature of God, that is heaven, that is Theosis.
Heaven is not simply a place as American evangelical retarded morons preach, same way hell isn't just a burning cave with horny guys that have pitchforks.
When humanity will be restored we will be like god, not equal to God but we will share his nature.

...

If we are given free will why did God prevent Pharaoh from freeing the jews?

>when people go against the spiritual, not material.
Not sure I see the difference. If I may compose and extreme example, I can't imagine Christ standing by and watching a baby being killed with a sword, not even if the person doing it assured everyone that he would never mislead the child or lure him into sin, only kill him.
Christ didn't want the soldiers who came to arrest him stopped because he knew he had a date with the cross. He did, however, specifically tell his followers to get a sword with which to protect themselves. Surely he wasn't worried someone was going to lead their spirits astray and they would need a sharp object to prevent it.

It's literally just basic human sacrifice stuff. No different from sacrificing cows, goats, virgins or babies

If God is the author of morality then it's moral for Jesus to cloak you in his merits to get you into heaven. You're basing it off your own standards which is where you're wrong. You still have to pay the consequences for your injustice either here or in purgatory

Is purgatory in the Bible?

Wonderful! What denomination are you? I would love some reading material on this topic and very much appreciate you giving me some links if you have them.

Duh through christ humans become the sons of god

It was a willing sacrifice, which (I assume) did not have to be made.

Also, it says something about justice. Just because someone apologizes for creating a disaster, it doesn't mean that people don't suffer. Someone ends up paying, and Jesus bore the cost as only he could. This is alluded to in Revelations, where he is described as the only one to be found that was worthy.

Not the most learned aChristian, but that's my take.

Purgatory doesn't exist and holy Spirit is of father only not the son, and key to restoration is Theosis.
Catholics are literally brainlets and you keep making up shit that has nothing to do with Holy fathers of the first church or the scripture.
There is no way to explain purgatory, it's literally made up and relies only a completely different concept of heaven and hell, a fantasy novel tier Dantes vision of heaven and hell.

The concept comes from Colossians 3:25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

Colossians 3:25 Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

>This sounds like Christ is used as a willful scapegoat.

Exactly so.

In John 10:17-18 Jesus says so: "For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it up again. I have received this command from my Father."

PS "Scapegoat" comes directly from the Bible.
(Leviticus 16:8-10)
He is to cast lots for the two goats—one lot for the LORD and the other for the scapegoat. Aaron shall bring the goat whose lot falls to the LORD and sacrifice it for a sin offering. But the goat chosen by lot as the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the LORD to be used for making atonement by sending it into the wilderness as a scapegoat.

>You're basing it off your own standards which is where you're wrong.
I'm sorry, but I'm quite sure God gave me a brain so that I could use it to figure things out. I don't believe for a second that he gave it to me so he could mislead me by commanding rules that violate moral reasoning. I continue to find that everything in Christianity makes sense, and the apparently contradictions are due to my misunderstanding, not any kind of arbitrary or capricious nature of God.
I would rather burn in hell than have an innocent man die for MY crimes. And believe me, I understand the magnitude of what I'm saying. If I really believed Christ was literally punished in my place for my wrongs, I could not be a Christian. Christ sacrificed himself to send me a message. That is the sense in which he died for me. He sent a message to the future and I have received it.

The idea of sacrifice seems all but lost to modernity, replaced with 'effort' or something. How are people supposed to remember the essential nature of this sacrifice when there is no equivalent in their daily lives except to meditate on the bible? This bothers me a little, though i suppose lent asks you to give something up.

Good luck OP. I once considered myself Christian, culturally I still am, I realized how its intertwined with the history of western civilization. But I had to take a Christian Worldview class at my University. It was basically Sunday School for adults, and I realized there are way too many contradictions in the religion for me to take it seriously. Good luck to those that can make the leap of faith.

>Is purgatory in the Bible?
It's in the apocrypha, and thereafter we end up in another old Christian debate about whether or not those extra books belong in the bible.
I personally side with the protestants who objected to the decision of Church of Rome, long after the time of Christ, to add them in.

Orthodox Christian, we are closest to the first church teachings and Georgia together with Greek/Rome and Armenia are the first three nations to become Christian on all of earth.
I can't give you any reading material right now, I'm waiting in hospital lobby but just research Orthodox Christianity.

>How is it moral that I can be forgiven for my wrongdoing because of the punishment of another?
It isn't that the person who you wronged has forgiven you; that would be up to them. But we're talking about whether God forgives you. There are no perfect employees, but if an employee regrets his past mistakes, turns direction, and starts doing right, the boss will forgive him.

It makes sense from God's perspective.

Look at it this way, god is goodness and love itself, the standard to be deserving of this is to be perfectly moral. To be perfectly pure and moral is to be deserving of being with God; which of course no mortal is. In sinning you have hurt your victim, but have also broken the law and sinned against goodness (God) itself. But God is perfectly compassionate and merciful, and so rather than condemn us all to hell (like we deserve, hell simply being a removal from god's presence, or ultimate death), he has taken the deserved punishment of death upon himself, being the ultimate expression of perfect self sacrifice (since god is perfectly loving of all people), so that we may be forgiven and enter into his presence if only we believe in him (which is basically to accept God's ultimate goodness).

So think of it this way: God's throwing the greatest party ever, to come you needed only to follow certain rules, but you didn't and so impacted someone else's enjoyment or offended your host; others may have been harmed but ultimately it was God's rules you broke (it's his house after all), he retains the authority to forgive or eject you. He decides to make ammends to the injured party on your behalf, and he'll let you stay, if only you admit that you were wrong to break his rules and he is the master of the house. Sounds more reasonable now, right?

To "skip the hullabaloo" would be to trivialize his own law, to sin demands recompense in a real sense. To just forgive without a *real* sacrifice being made, without there being genuine restitution, would be to abolish the law, not fulfill it, which is contrary to God's nature.

>f we are given free will why did God prevent Pharaoh from freeing the jews?

"A Jewish scholar named Nachmanides offers an answer which is as profound as it is astoundingly simple. He argues that had God refrained from hardening Pharaoh's heart, he would have then been deprived of the ability to make a coherent and true choice. Indeed, the plagues would have compelled him to let the Israelites go—an option he most certainly would not have chosen in the absence of God’s strong hand.

God steeled Pharaoh’s resolve, causing that the plagues shouldn’t interfere with his decision-making process.
Pharaoh’s freeing the Israelites after their God had ravaged his land with frogs, lice, wild beasts, pestilence, etc., can be compared to handing over one’s wallet to an armed mugger: neither is an act of “free” choice.

Since the scale was so heavily weighted towards Pharaoh’s sending the Jews out—after all, what would any normal sovereign choose to do when his country is slowly and systematically being destroyed?—God steeled Pharaoh’s resolve, causing that the plagues shouldn’t interfere with his decision-making process, and allowing him to continue expressing his true desire. God hardened his heart so that he would have the strength and ability to freely choose his course of action—and he freely chose to retain the Israelites as slaves. Thus Pharaoh rightfully earned divine retribution for his shameful behavior."

>I took a leftist anti-Christian brainwashing class and now I'm not a Christian.
Sorry to hear it. Maybe you should check with someone a little less biased against Christians and white civilization in general if those "contradictions" are real or were simply made up by people who hate Christ. You have at your fingertips 2000 years of the very most intelligent white men in the world asking and answering those questions. I think you'll find that there are no credible "contradictions" in Christianity, at least as it was before liberal-leaning idiots tried to "improve" it toward the end of the twentieth century.

It's not really like another person filling in for your jail sentence, or something like that.

Orthodox Church does not deny the need for soul to fully go through all stages of illumination to achieve Theosis, but to suggest that it's an actual place where you temporarily burn for your sins has no place in teachings.

Jesus fulfilled the "Law of Moses", which the hebrews regarded as the eternal law of God. This law demanded that every transgression of the law either be punished "eye for eye", or a sacrifice must be made for the forgiveness of sin.

So Jesus ended the law of Moses condemnation against the sinner, by fulfilling the role (which was also a part of that law) of a perfect sacrifice for all sin.

Very nice. I am Anglican and I have so much respect, love, and admiration for Orthodox Christians. I hope everything is ok for you, considering that you are in a hospital lobby. May I pray for you about anything?

I'm sorry if I got the wrong message across and I really do understand your sentiment. The point I was trying to make was that God's standards don't make sense at times but you have to accept them through faith which is a theological virtue. Another example of faith is the doctrine of the Trinity it's a mystery and can't be grasped through human reason but you have to accept it through faith.

>If we are given free will why did God prevent Pharaoh from freeing the jews?
It's an unfortunate mistranslation of the odd colloquialisms used in ancient Hebrew. The bible is in fact filled with many clear instances where it makes it sound as if one person does something, when in reality they are only allowing it or enduring it or acknowledging it.
I invite you to read this brief and excellent explanation:
apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=1205

I'm not an atheist, I am I guess an Advaitin/Monist.

What gets me though, is how does the Christian God continue to be omnipotent and infinite if hell and heaven and eternally separate souls also exist outside of him.

Does this belief in an eternal hell and heaven essentially deny God of his omnipotence as something other than him will always exist?

If the holy spirt does not accept you then you are not a Christian. Just letting you know.

So what happens to a person when they die and haven't payed for all their sins according to Orthodox teaching?

Just a minor injury after skiing, it should be alright soon.
Pray for the well being of my nation, I'll pray for the same for you.
God bless.

>God makes men
>Puts them in Garden
>God is King over everything
>Angel tricks humans into stealing.
>Every human on earth steals from God
>Every human is a thief
>Perfect God's creation seems to be a failure
>God kicks out kids and takes cool benefits away
>All humans become prone to sin.
>But he sets up a way for them to come back to him
>Christ lives life as a human, never sins, gets passed temptations from the Devil
>Christ dies as a perfect man. The first and only human to live their entire lives perfect without sin.
>Proves humans are worth saving
>Becomes Savior
>We have path back to God who will forgive us for our sins.
>Cool benefits can be restored

Romans 5

That's a good question, but only if you put the three criminals on par with Jesus. If he decided that we were worthy, as a Christian you must believe that he is the son of God and accept that we were worthy--it's not like you will ever beat him in an ethics argument.

Think of it more like this: if you were a baby in a stroller and your father saved you from a car by sacrificing himself, would that make you a bad person? Of course not--you should just be thankful, pine for your loss, and honor your father by carrying out his wishes.

>how does the Christian God continue to be omnipotent and infinite
Most translations of the bible never say God is omnipotent or infinite. The King James says he is omnipotent...AFTER he has held the reckoning, destroyed Satan, and ended the reign of evil on earth.

>How is it moral that I can be forgiven for my wrongdoing because of the punishment of another?
Because you're not alone, all men have broken the Law. It is where your heart is at that counts, men having repentant hearts that turns toward Jesus and asks for forgiveness is what God wants. He wants us to acknowledge that we cannot make it on our own and that we need the Lord for our salvation and deliverance from death for our sin.
>19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe

I definitely will. God bless you too, user. Thank you for your contribution to this thread, I have enjoyed reading your posts.

First thing that you have to realize is that in Orthodox teachings heaven in itself is a state tied to the omnipresence of God and his eternal love, similarly hell and eternal torture of endless fire is what is felt by those who deny God yet can feel his eternal presence and what could have been, a sensation possible only after one falls, same reason why the devil is eternally in anguish. Orthodoxy is less concerned with the "location" of the soul, it's very hard for us to understand anyway, the same way the mystery is the Trinity is hard to fathom.
Theosis is the final state of illumination of the soul at which point the soul is restored to its original, Adam like state and above where it shares, embraces and is fully filled with Godly love and grace.

Another good question, and it pulls at life's mysteries. What is the reason for all of this? Only God knows, but many Christians I know see life as a test of faith. Wouldn't be much of a test if there were no trials.

My apologies, I meant this post as a reply

God bless.

I highly recommend it, it's the greatest thing you'll do in terms of your religion. If you just learn enough about it and learn about the real meanings of everything you will have no questions. Jesus sacrificed himself for mankind and to allow us to enter his kingdom. God bless you all :)

God is eternal.
Souls, angels, Heaven and Hell are aeviternal.
And there is a key difference.

God's eternity means that he is outside of contraints of space-time (He doesn't experience time as we or anything else in creation does. All of time is present to him simultaneously).

But aeviternity is within the constraints of time, and it lasts forever. It is the experience of time angels and demons and souls experience.

In short, eternity implies no beginning point and no ending point. Only God is eternal. Aeviternity implies a beginning point but no ending point.

>What gets me though, is how does the Christian God continue to be omnipotent and infinite if hell and heaven and eternally separate souls also exist outside of him.
There is no separation, that's Catholic false teaching.
>9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

>13And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
He'll isn't separation from God. The devil doesnt rule over Hell like Porky Pig with a pitchfork. God rules over Hell. God transcends time and space. Without beginning and without end.
>7Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

>8If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

...

Remember people: It is LITERAL blasphemy to think there is something God cant forgive you for.

Conflating forgiveness with escaping punishment is the problem. You’ll still get all the punishment required if need be but you’ll know it won’t last forever or be beyond your endurance

>Georgia
You guys have a beautiful written language

...

How come there are so many orthodox on Sup Forums, compared to their actual proportion of the population?

Super annoying trying to save someones soul only to have schismatics come steal it away with their anti-intellectual nonsense.

>Orthodox
>Schismatics

Some sins god knows cant be avoided.

It's definitely prettier

Like when someone breaks into your house and ties up your family and you shoot the robbers dead. Thats murder. Which is a sin. But its forgiven.

I never posted in these threads. Someone may have already answered. Anyway, OP, you're absolutely right and your moral understanding is sound. Of course it's unjust for an innocent to be punished for your crimes. That's not what the sacrifice of Christ was. It's an error called the error of penal substitution. You can read more about it here and also find what it actually was.

unamsanctamcatholicam---blogspot---com/2007/07/why-do-so-many-catholics-believe-in.html

Interesting

Pick up catholicism. It’s pretty comfy and nice.