Begon shills! Sup Forums philosophical discussion. Topic: Cicero

Cicero's Treatise on the Commonwealth is in its entirety a red-pill. source: oll.libertyfund.org/titles/cicero-treatise-on-the-commonwealth--5

If you think that our situation today, in which anyone speaks up for responsibility and morality is persecuted by the mob is a novel one, think again:

“When (says Plato) the insatiate jaws of the populace are fired with the thirst of liberalism, and urged on by evil ministers, they drain the cup, not of tempered liberty, but unmitigated licence; then their magistrates and chiefs, if they are not quite subservient and remiss, and do not largely promote the popular licentiousness, are pursued, incriminated, accused, and cried down under the title of despots and tyrants.”

Cicero's point is that when democracy holds full sway, and monarchy and aristocracy are wholly absent, all of society is leveled down.

test/bump

He goes on to say that citizen and foreigner become the same, that women gain the same rights as men, and the men become effeminate:

“No difference is made between the citizen and the alien; the master dreads and cajoles his scholars, and they despise their masters. [...] [W]ives boast the same rights as their husbands; [...] At length this infinite licentiousness produces such a morbid self–sufficiency, such fastidious and effeminate sentiments get possession of the people [...]."

This has all happened before.

"Such was Cato. And he used to say that the government of Rome was superior to that of other states; because in them the great men were mere isolated individuals, who regulated their constitutions according to their own ipse dixits, their own laws, and their own ordinances." - Cicero

tfw you realise that fascism isn't authoritarianism but simply a collective of strong willed individualists

tfw you realise this is why all the former libertarians on pol trended to the fash

Rome is literally founded by stronger, braver and more clever men cucking the Sabines:

"The young Sabine females of the best birth, who came to Rome, attracted by the public games and spectacles which Romulus celebrated in the circus during the first anniversary, were suddenly carried off by his orders, and were associated in marriages to the best families in Rome. This cause having brought on Rome the Sabine armies, and the issue of the battle being doubtful and undecided, Romulus made an alliance with Tatius, king of the Sabines, at the intercession of the matrons who had been so abducted. By this compact, he admitted the Sabines into the city, communicated with their religious ceremonies, and divided his power with their king." - Cicero

tfw you realise that rome was founded by cucking another state with complicity of its own women (' at the intercession of the matrons')

Pic related

The willful desire of men to be cucks today in the West is complete proof that our civilization has collapsed, or that it is so miserable that its men seek their own demise.

The problem with democracy as it exists in the modern world is that it lends itself far too easily to being a bat for the masses to swing aimlessly. There is a reason the assemblies in the Roman Republic were largely rubber stamps for from the masses than power brokers themselves. Sulla weakened the power of the Tribunes specifically because the Plebs of any society are not rational actors. They cannot have sway over large parts of a political system nor be treated as equal in skills and intellect to those whose entire lives are devoted to civil service. You wouldn't consider a McDonald's Manager an authority equal to a Doctor on the topic of anesthetics so why then do we consider all citizens, most of whom do not have the time to dive into politics and the philosophies behind power equal authorities in the running if the state?

Statecraft is the highest virtue of men, as Aristotle pointed out as well in his Politics and Ethics. It is God's will that you raise and cultivate the state, and lift it to the heavens. Any philosophers that tells you that the best life is one of quiet contemplation and isolation is simply to weak to take this challenge, and to put to test his word, and make it action. Let the preachers preach, we shall act!

Cicero claims that the primary motivation for democracy is 'liberty', but that when democracy goes wholly unchecked, this merely devolves into 'liberalism' or the will to satisfy material desires. This is why the mob needs to be given the impression that it is free, by appealing to its sentiments (not reason), if liberty is to be had by them.

I haven't had the chance to really dive into Cicero's works yet but having recently finished Plutarch's "Life of Cicero" I believe his handling of the Cateline conspiracy highlights perfectly the benefit of having effective statesmen with the ability to steer the ship of the state without consulting the masses. His assement of democracies nature seems to me on the face of it fairly accurate.

Cicero is like the Roman and thus pragmatic version of Plato, or at least he presents himself in this way. He therefore resonates more with American readers today I think, given America's own pragmatic outlook, which is still preserved among a few.

What other 'lives' have you read from Plutarch? I have not read his Life of Cicero, but I was very impressed with his lives of Cato the Elder and Lycurgus.

Also, he seems to think like many political scientists once did, that democracy and the other forms of government ought to be chosen or mixed together in certain proportions always with practical considerations in mind, such as geographic location, size of the state, education of the people, etc. At least Aristotle claims this. So does Rousseau.

Unfortunately, since the 18th Century, it seems that democracy is more often treated as a natural end, as well as egalitarianism. But I think that the destruction of all our higher institutions shows that equality is one of the most idealist ideals possible, and very far from the state of nature.

I've recently read his Lifes for Pompey, Crassus, Caesar, Sulla, and Marius in addition to his life of Cicero. Overall I would say they were fairly well assembled although for the Lives of the Triumvirs however he doesn't seem to fully explore the power dynamics between them glossing over a lot of the problems which created the ground work for the Civil War between Pompey and Caesar. But in general he includes quite interesting excerpts of their statesmanship and military service.

I'm incline to agree with this assessment. Democracy as a tool is of great benefit to the running of a state. It is unearned or unchecked democracy which can produce the opposite result and undermine the institutions of governance.

Did you read the life of Cato the Younger as well, who also lived during the triumvirate? The part where he yells at his son for stealing his sword, and then kills himself by pulling out his entrails is beautiful.

Anything Cicero is a good read honestly. Dude's pretty red pilled

It's next on my reading list after I finish my current book.

Yes. Man I wish I had more posters. I was hoping that Cicero's claim that Rome was literally founded by cucking another country with the consent of that country's own women would have interested Sup Forums more.

It's probably partly just the timing it being a weekday and towards the end of a lot of people's work days in North America and partly that nu/pol/ not interested in anything that isn't "lol liberals btfo hail Trump my dudes"

What is happening right now is NOT "the mob holding sway". The mob is largely manipulated and stupefied. So Cicero is moot.

That's exactly what the problem with the Tribune in his time. The mob is easily susceptible to demogagues and manipulation. That's why you cannot allow them to have sway over powerful appointments because they will be manipulated to position bad actors into those roles.

cicero was a novus homo cuck who sucked optimates cuck but was bullied mercilessly anyway by them and cato who thought he was a beta faggot, which he was

Actually, Cicero explicitly states that problem:

“Then those who feel in duty bound to obey the chiefs of the state, are persecuted by the insensate populace, who call them voluntary slaves. But those in the magistracies who flatter the popular equality, and the demagogues who plead the levelling system, and endeavour to abolish all distinctions between nobles and commoners, these they stun [194]with acclamations and overwhelm with honours."

Moreover, it is fairly common knowledge that tyrants hold sway over the people by depriving them of honors and distinctions (in other words, things that touch upon higher spiritual values) so as to level everyone down. Aristotle is quite clear when he says that it is in the interest of tyrants to promote egalitarianism of this sort.

we are discussing cicero's arguments. if i wanted to hear ad hominom attacks on thinkers who draw into question your precious democracy and egalitarianism, i would go to conferences.

Is that you Cucero?

>f-fuck the plebs amirite my fellow optimates
>lex hortensia doesnt really matter anyway
t. cicero

you was a God emperor Trump cuck who sucked jew cuck but was bullied mercilessly anyway by them and Bannon who thought he was a beta faggot, which he was

Moreover, as Aristotle claims, tyranny is often characterized by the suppression of honor and morality, and at the same time the promotion of economic freedom, which ensures that people only pursue their private affairs, and not public ones. This is an accurate characterization of the West today.

He should have stuck to cookbooks

Cicero was the Roman equivalent of Molymeme

also true

On the topic of Sup Forums celeb comparison, Cato the elder was absolutely blackpilled on the Greek Question. Truly the Dignitas Man of his day.

>"In due course, my son Marcus, I shall explain what I found out in Athens about these Greeks, and demonstrate what advantage there may be in looking into their writings (while not taking them too seriously). They are a worthless and unruly tribe. Take this as a prophecy: when those folk give us their writings they will corrupt everything. All the more if they send their doctors here. They have sworn to kill all barbarians with medicine—and they charge a fee for doing it, in order to be trusted and to work more easily. They call us barbarians, too, of course, andOpici, a dirtier name than the rest. I have forbidden you to deal with doctors."
mfw

>blackpilled
PASS

I wonder what you two niggers think the difference between red and black-pilled is, especially since you seem to love old Cato (so did Cicero btw) who is presented by Plutarch more or less as the model of Roman republican virtue. I always thought the black-pill was for edgy Nietzsche and Stirner fags.

Black pill is nihilism. Red pill is responsibility for your consequences and that it affects society at large. Havnt you read De Officiis

But right now the mob is still further removed than that. They are barely even potent in any way. The demagogues turned the mob their own political ends-- today, their aren't demagogues, there is a stream of narrative from a nebulous realm of authority that doesn't harness the mob in any way, only keeps it suspended in a helpless internecine futility.

I dont disagree but some would say the black pill isnt nihilsm but rather the belief that nothing can really change in our current state and system, more so that we need an absolute collapse then to rebuild.

Which i probably lean more towards than just "nihilsm". I could be wrong though.

You just disagreed with me faggot. And that is nihilism. Get an hero commie

No one evere said that taking the black pill refutes responsibilty, nor that nothing can change.

Nihilsm is the belief that nothing matters or could/should really be changed.

Thats not what im saying, im saying things should change but in order for them to do so we need a greater collpase than just shaking up the political scene.

Even nazi Germany only came about after the complete economic and social collapse after years of Marxist corruption.

fuck off im not a commie cunt.

reddit spacing

Its called enter you dumb shit, so its clearer to read.

Has nothing to do with that shithole.
Stop trying to deflect you kike.

>The young Sabine females of the best birth, who came to Rome, attracted by the public games and spectacles which Romulus celebrated in the circus during the first anniversary, were suddenly carried off by his orders, and were associated in marriages to the best families in Rome. This cause having brought on Rome the Sabine armies, and the issue of the battle being doubtful and undecided, Romulus made an alliance with Tatius, king of the Sabines, at the intercession of the matrons who had been so abducted. By this compact, he admitted the Sabines into the city, communicated with their religious ceremonies, and divided his power with their king
This is a Roman source, so what really happened is up to debate.
I disagree statecraft is part of the secrets the best teachers have to offer, but there is something else even higher than statecraft although related, but slightly more esoteric. Read Jung
Men forming groups and going somewhere to get the land and the females is the standard modus operandi of history.

Nietzsche offers allternatives for those who do understand him.