Whats the point of investing on gold?

Question for preppers.
Lets say collapse happens, what do I give a shit about you waving a paper about your pre-collapse investments or your hidden stash of shiny rocks? And if I give a shit about it what makes you think I will follow some kind of economics systemic behavior and I wont shoot you in the head for it?

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you can use it as an antibiotic
you can solder with it
you can hide it easily
and you can make jewellery with it. ooh, fancy!

and how could you shoot me if I'm paying a local militia? can you explain precisely exactly how your imaginary apocalypto is gonna go down?

How are you paying a local militia if they are thinking like me?

They're not.

uhuh. So basically the "invest in gold" is a bussiness nerd's wishful thinking of an apocalypse.

No.

The point of investing in gold is the same as keeping money: saving. The theory goes that when the apocalypse happens, the value of government backed fiat evaporates and becomes worthless. Same story for property claims like financial instruments or stock, cause otherwise it wouldn't be a proper anarchy. By investing in gold the prepper is banking on the utility of gold as money in the absence of government. You can always shoot people in the head and steal their shit in an anarchy, the prepper would have to invest in crazy defenses if he's going to hoard gold. In actuality it will probably quickly be outsourced to a (private) warehouse with claims tickets, but only for those who agree to the warehouse's sovereignty (since we're in an anarchy). I mean, if you don't invest in gold but still want to prepare for the fall of government, you can only invest in other material goods. How are you gonna defend those from the guys with the guns?

So what you said is the same thing as the rest. Some people are gonna magically agree that your shinny pebbles have value (while for some reason the goverment toilet paper you can wipe your ass with has less value) and they also agree to bow to you because they dont have as much shiny pebbles as the economic systamic behavior dictates. My question all along was: What makes you think that will happen?

The model isn't have a ton of gold and nothing else, its have a small armory and lots of food and medical suplies plus gold to act as a medium of exchange.

>Some people are gonna magically agree that your shinny pebbles have value
This really isn't such a strange thing historically speaking, because even farmers have to barter using something they can store for longer than their yield stays fresh. It would only be gold by (local) consensus, maybe some other people would use silver or fucking palladium. The emergence of money is to be expected though, and empirically it usually starts with hard metals. Government toilet paper becomes true toilet paper because right now it is legal tender because of the law, enforced by said government with its guns. That's what makes it a government. We're talking about the collapse of civilization here, and while we may not agree on what that would look like, at least there can not be any government enforcing their strangely colored bills. The difference with the shiny pebbles is that gold is not actually a fiat, but you're right that the prepper could choose to invest in any kind of shiny pebble.
> My question all along was: What makes you think that will happen?
No your question was what the point was of investing in gold. When everything breaks down we aren't talking about some "economic system" that dictates gold = money. It would arise from barter + demand for storing value. Gold as money is dependent on agreement, but does not require a government enforcing it as the only kind of money. If there are people who go around shooting people in the head and stealing their shit, then those people might not be interested in trading anything at all. If you assume that nobody wants to trade, then money is indeed useless. But at the same time so is everything else you might want to save, including the things you need. Property becomes a game of defense, yet if you happen to find people who also believe in gold as money, then you can trade.

What makes you think everybody will shoot each other all the time? And aren't you basically saying "all prepping is useless" since all of it is saving?

Because despite your autistic fantasies most people aren't sociopathic murderers and won't turn into niggers just because times are hard.
Throughout recorded history there was never total anarchy, humans always gather into societies with established rules. And gold always held value as a limited resource.

>Lets say collapse happens

Gold isn't worth much in a collapse.

>The theory goes that when the apocalypse happens, the value of government backed fiat evaporates and becomes worthless.

But far more likely than a global collapse is a local war or economic instability and that doesn't bump the value of gold, it also shrinks - just less than whatever fiat exists. Rather, it's usually another currency that people will trade as "secure real money"; in modern times that's been the dollar.

In a global apocalypse cans of beans will be worth more than gold bars.

Yes. Tbf, after the apocalypse, gold would have some value. However, fruit trees actually increase in value, and white sugar, hydrogenated coconut oil, pasta, bullets etc would be enormously valuable during, and still very valuable after the collapse.

But I dont care about your gold. If I cared about your gold why would I stop caring about the goverment paper in the first place? Your need to have lots of food and medical suplies and lots of weapons really shows how this will not work. Because I can have all these without the gold and be just as powerful, more powerful in fact if you are trying to replace your lack of kynesthetic intelligence (aka good aim) with shiny pebles.

i think the consensus among preppers is ammo

Thanks for confirming this :

You can only trade in the dollar if there is still somebody around making sure that the dollar exist and is valuable, since it is pure fiat by definition (and design). Local collapse is not really what preppers are preparing for I'd say.

>In a global apocalypse cans of beans will be worth more than gold bars.
This is really only true in the short term, but true it is. If gold investors are right about the nature of gold as money, then the price of gold would get bumped in any situation where more people believe this. You can't just say that event X won't affect the price of gold, since it's dependent on the attitude of for example the preppers.

There seems to be some kind of filter between reality and your mind where things are said and shown to you and something completely different reaches your consciousness.

Im interested in trading bullets and food etc and thats only if it is more beneficial than to shoot you in the head for it. What do I care about gold?

real preppers buy useful bartering supplies like salt, gunpowder, primers, etc.

nobody us going to give a shit about shiny gold in real shtf. it'll go straight to bartering

in reality all you really need is survival skills

salt will have more worth than anything for trade, not some cold metal.

If you don't care about gold then you place no value in it, and you can watch with anger and envy as other people start up a new economy using a commonly agreed medium of exchange. In the same way your roving gang of bandits will watch with anger and envy as the local settlement prospers while you risk death for canned beans. You do not have to agree with the preppers that gold can (and will) become money after the apocalypse, but it's still the reason they would stock up on it. In the same way, buying guns ammo and canned beans is dependent on the belief that you will be able to defend them. You do not understand the nature of money in the modern world. It is enforced by governments as "legal tender".

You do not have to care about gold. What do you care if people decide to agree to trade with it? Build your empire somewhere else? You're asking why preppers would buy it, and I'm telling you the reason. The fact that people like you exist who have no interest in it and would not trade with the preppers does not deter them, because they have faith there will be others who will. I think you are confused because fiat does not just hang together by 'consensus' but by government enforcement (law). Without law, no fiat money, but gold could still be possible by magical emergence. If you don't think it will, don't buy it. If you don't think you can defend your canned beans, don't buy them.

Thats what Im saying all along.

>You can only trade in the dollar if there is still somebody around

Yes, that's part of my post.

>This is really only true in the short term

Short term? Global apocalypse scenario? No, friend. Guns, ammunition and food will remain at premium as society crumbles and that will be a long time of decline as one resource after another is consumed by the masses. Then the migrations out of the cities will hit the rural areas and people with stashes. If you survive that and mass starvation and warbands, maybe decades afterward in a very reduced population, you can start trading in farm equipment to start making things and rebuilding. Most of that will be useless too.

Nobody will be manning oil rigs, gas doesn't last forever, you'll be stuck trying to rework things into steam power or stationary water power, or training horses (if there are any left after the starvation crisis) to pull what used to be tractor equipment.

Our entire world is completely dependent on on-demand delivery systems. We don't have remotely enough resources to rebuild in an apocalypse scenario.

> then the price of gold would get bumped in any situation where more people believe

Again look at actual crisis moments, people are trading their family jewel collections for a pittance, or for transport or for a meal. Look at WWII where this was common, or the Balkan crisis - both non-apocalypse scenarios where you can be sure those items will be valuable soon or elsewhere.

tell that to Germany which has tons of gold

> It is enforced by governments as "legal tender".

And an apocalypse means preciselly that this enforcement ceases to exist. If it needed to be enforced for it to not lose value then why would I give the same value to (insert useless trincket here)? Gov paper wouldnt lose its value in the first place, maybe even gov wouldnt need to enforce it.

This

I should add that I do have gold and silver, because I like it. I like collecting coins, I like the beauty of the items themselves, it's not money wasted, it's a fairly stable investment.

As hobbies go, it's not a bad one.

What is this "premium" you speak of? If there are 3 gold bars total in the entire mountain region, then you can bet your ass a gold bar can buy you a gun if the local economy runs on it. You seem to completely misunderstand the nature of money as a local exchange/savings medium. There could be a thousand people living completely isolated, with all their vast prepper resources, that then discover 1 bar of gold and decide to run their economy on it. If you believe this could happen, you can invest in gold. You're talking about items being "valuable" as if it's a timeless number, but it's only expressible in terms of the money that's around. Money is just the abstraction of bartering systems across a market, and gold (or something else) would be the method of saving.

no that's silly according to OP society will magically disintegrate into a quarter billion lone wolves after the power goes out for a few days

Gold would be fucking useless in reality of an apocalyptic scenario because it has no real worth unless you are manufacturing shit like computer parts. No one will take it, because no one has a use for it. Barter for actually important trade items like alcohol and spices, hell even books.

Gold and silver have been stores of value for centuries. Keeping some assets outside the banking system is probably a good idea. A stash of green paper cash would especially be useful were the banking system to fail.

>You seem to completely misunderstand the nature of money as a local exchange/savings medium. There could be a thousand people living completely isolated

Dude, your economic theory is drivel in the face of reality. Again, look at actual crisis points. The value of gold doesn't go up, it's heavily down. And that's in a non-apocalypse scenario.

> discover 1 bar of gold and decide to run their economy on it

But in reality practical things are more valuable and there's not enough gold to "run" an economy on. There actually never was, there was a fucking reason people didn't walk around with all gold coin even in stable ancient civilizations.

>Money is just the abstraction of bartering systems across a market, and gold (or something else) would be the method

And what I'm telling you is that gold isn't that method. It's more likely local scrip IOUs will be the barter system used.

Yes that's why fiat money loses its value, whereas gold MIGHT retain SOME value if there are people around who agree to trade in it. You and I can not use gold as money right now, because the government FORBIDS everyone from accepting it as payments of debts, the same way that I can not use dollars to buy anything in any store in my country. When government falls, this imposition is lifted and everybody has to face local trade again. People who buy gold believe there is a fundamental difference between government enforced fiat and precious metals, and I'm trying to explain to you why they believe that. Your insistence that gold can only be valuable if a government enforces it because otherwise they are just "shiny pebbles" is just your opinion. If you and I agree they are not just shiny pebbles, then suddenly they aren't. That's how money works in the first place in the absence of government. It could be silver or uranium too, if we agree to it.

gold has always held value and will held value when things go back a normal state, it can be used for a lot of things like electronics and shit but mainly is valuable for how little of it there is and thats why people use it to exchange

lets say you want a donkey but you only have chickens so you would have to find a donkey owner who whats to exchange it for chickens but if you change your chickens for gold is very likely that the donkey owner wants the gold because is a valueable interchangeable item

That's fine, fuck you too then.

>No I believe it will disintegrate into small bands. And whoever falls for the gold meme (or is a bussiness nerd and has no other choice) he will lose his flexibility and be dominated or killed.

...

Because gold had zero value before the 1960s when computers were invented.

Gold and silver buy passage. If you need to get out past a border or guards; gold and silver are the only way.

YOU FUCKING RETARD. IM SAYING IF PEOPLE MIGHT AGREE TO TRADE IN GOLD WHY DOESNT THE SAME APPLY TO GOV MONEY?

If you going to prep the only thing you need to stock up on is ammunition and black pills.

Look dude you don't even seem to understand that investing in gold is contingent on an economic theory where it could be used as gold. You calling it "drivel" is about as useful as yelling at a cloud when it comes to preppers buying gold. If you think they are retarded for believing gold will be worth anything then you can go take it up with them. I'm not here to defend gold, just explaining what they're thinking.

It might happen. Maybe dollars will be very useful to stock up on and we'll get a Fallout 3 scenario. In that case you'll have made the right call in keeping your dollars. I'm explaining to you the reasoning of people who decide to trade their dollars for gold. If all the shops on the street decide not to trade in gold but in dollars as if the government were still there, then you'll have a bunch of valuable dollars still.

It was scarce and had value in only that in a developed society we could gauge the net effort it took to mine it as an equivalent for a commoners work. What people tend to forget is that an apocalypse won't have any civilizations backing for the effort it takes in mining gold, and no one is going to want to waste resources trading for a useless metal.

Gold always held value? I dont think so. In fact I believe that gold and monetary economics started gaining value during the parentless ww1 kids. Before that it was something nobody gave a shit.

Tobacco, coffee, sugar, salt, alcohol, bic lighters, gasoline, lighter fluid, and ammunition are all FAR more valuable post-shtf currency.

No it might not happen. Because we already concluded it is useless toilet paper. I like the fact that you mellowed down from REEE FIAT MONEY WONT HAVE VALUE GOLD WILL to "oh yea gov paper will have value good thinking OP". You need a fake economic system in place like your life depends on it because you are a bussiness nerd.

You're so angry man. Good luck with your crusade.

You don't care about gold dipshit, you care about what gold can purchase. It's useless in the collapse but crazy useful during the rebuilding, unless you think we'll be bartering forever after or turn into a communist state. Stop being an obstinate retard.

You are so desperate to shut me down its entertaining.

Unless collapse is just larping it will take scammers in a wild west to preach to people about money. And for a wild west to happen people need to forget about monetary economics.

>come to thread, seems interesting
>pirate flag posting like this
>leave thread, my mistake

>investing in gold is contingent on an economic theory

Wow, you're saying things don't have intrinsic value? Wooow. It's almost like I've been saying that the entire time fucknuts.

>You calling it "drivel"

Yes, the underlying theory that gold will be valuable in a crisis or in an apocalyptic scenario is drivel. That's what you're defending butting into this. You're literally arguing that gold has intrinsic value.

Don't you fucking understand what you're arguing for?

>'m not here to defend gold, just explaining what they're thinking.

You're not explaining what they're thinking, I know what they're thinking, and they're wrong. You can't point to the increase of value in gold in a catastrophe, and while there are no apocalyptic scenario priors, it's not difficult to work out just using a hierarchy of needs.

Ammo uber alles

>being this shortsighted
There are varying decrees of collapse. If we have a Great Depression then people holding gold come out on top. If we have an event the thrusts society into a post apocalyptic scene from Mad Max then yes, gold is nearly worthless to the common man.

The problem is preping for the an event with a 0.001% probability while I'm preping for an event with a 1% probability. Oh, and I still have land and MREs.

I thought you were asking why preppers invest in gold? It would be easier if you changed OP to just calling them retarded for believing it, but then I guess you wouldn't be able to bait for answers for people to yell at. I don't even agree with the preppers that investing in gold right now is a good idea, yet you're here pretending to be desperately defending yourself from my REEE. People who trade gold for dollars now for prepper reasons believe that gold will be worth more by comparison after their imagined apocalypse happened. Now here you are telling me that that's a stupid belief. FINE.

>I know what they're thinking, and they're wrong.
Then why are you acting like I'm the one defending theories? You fucking moron still don't understand that I'm answering the OP question "why would preppers invest in gold?" without endorsing it.
>You're literally arguing that gold has intrinsic value
No, I'm saying some preppers believe that gold has a chance of being used as money and that it's a good deal against their dollars right now. You should also take it up with them if you think that's retarded.

Thats actually a viable answer. But pressure from outsiders wont let a great depression larping. It will be the dark ages all over again.

>The antibacterial activity of silver has long been known and has found a variety of applications because its toxicity to human cells is considerably lower than to bacteria. The most widely documented uses are prophylactic treatment of burns and water disinfection.

You are the one calling me a sociopathic nigger as your defence for gold investment.

what the actual fuck.

oh sorry wrong person.

>If we have a Great Depression then people holding gold come out on top.

No, and you can't even use that as an example because at the time gold and currency were interlinked, and the inherent problem of that in a modern economy is one of the causes behind the crash.

Since then gold and currency are decoupled and you can't use it as a prior for what would happen, arguing either side of this.

bullets will be the new currency

It's for once order is reestablished as it surely will be.

>what do I give a shit about you waving a paper about your pre-collapse investments or your hidden stash of shiny rocks?

First of all you are a retard, so your 'opinion' won't matter if SHTF. You will be starving to death once your week-supply of hot pockets runs out.

>And if I give a shit about it what makes you think I will follow some kind of economics systemic behavior and I wont shoot you in the head for it?

So gold both 'has zero value' and you are also willing to shoot people in the head for it. That makes sense.

You are a future corpse that people who own gold will have to step over, on their way to buying food, with gold. (and 100% of gold bugs, were gun nuts first, and remain gun nuts, so good luck with your plans, slim.)

vimeo.com/3843927

Thats highly unlikely. At least it will be highly unlikely that the reenstablished order will be people kissing your feet for your gold stash.

Gun nuts who have had a beer over their high score at the practice range? Yea Im not worried. Two people shooting each other has more in common with two people swordfighting than one person shooting at the range.

If Im a retard you will be a smart dead person. My opinion will matter more.

I have a new strategy for this thread: how about you try and sell those retarded preppers some gold?

Well thats what I was thinking. That the invest in gold guys are scam agents in the prepper community.

But that's short lived. Looking back at medieval and earlier times a man's worth was his word even during times of mild famine. if it gets out to others that you are a killer/thief your options to trade drastically drop and the chances of you being killed rise. I know if there was a roving gang in my area stealing/killing my response wouldn't be let's see what they want it would be I wonder how many I can pick off at 300 meters before they notice Jamal is on the ground.

Anybody shilling to invest in something is shilling by definition. Whether they are scammers would depend on if their beliefs are sincere, which I think some are and aren't. It's the same with crypto right now right? But at the same time you are shilling against gold right now, so who knows. The point of the gold price today is that we're all betting on this outcome. That's why I'm so confused that you and sven are this aggressive about insisting all gold bugs are retarded. It's not just preppers and electronic industries who buy the stuff you know?

You won't be the first who has tried to take my gold. But I am still confused. Is gold crap with zero value, or is gold something you want so bad you will kill people for it? I will kill to protect my gold. I guess your total gold holdings at this time is zero, a number close to your IQ?

Any true goldbug will gladly offer real money for gold anonski, this is a foundation of gold's value. Gold has value, the same value, in every nation in the entire world. For 1st world citizens, not a big deal, because our Euros and dollars are strong anyway, but for 2nd/3rd world cucks, having your wealth in a store of real value is critical.

Looking back at medieval and earlier times? So looking back at a span of 5000 years? What are the inbetween 10 years inside those 5000 years that what you said applied 100%?

I'm really surprised how no one mentioned antibiotics and toilet paper.
This guy who survived years of war in Bosnia in his memoirs named TP and antibiotics as the two things that tere was always a deficit of.

But that was my point, since OP is convinced that anybody investing in gold for prepper reasons is retarded. Fortunately we already have a mechanism to turn this belief into a profit.

I said IF im interested in your gold, without a goverment centralized overwhelming power keeping me from killing you, what keeps me from trying? I never said I will be interested in your gold, I will most likely kill you for the gun you have to protect your gold.

>Whats the point of investing on gold?
To make the rich richer.

The wealthy buy gold low, then pump up the price by convince the stupidest people to invest. Once the prices are high, the wealthy sell theirs and leave the stupid people holding the bag again.

Substitute the world "gold" for any other commodity of artificial value, and you have the formula for why the rich always get richer and the poor sit around bitching about their eternal, self-inflicted misery on Sup Forums.

Im not shilling. Because gold and money has value only if you believe in it but a bullet will pierce your skull no matter if you believe in it or not.

So scammer agents.

You're shilling in the sense that you are convinced that what you're saying is the case, though I don't doubt that you're sincere. Shilling doesn't depend on your sincerity. Money works if you believe in it or if there's a government around to make you believe in the laws, same as how you don't go around shooting people right now because you believe that the government will stop you. In theory preppers could look each other up after the apocalypse and honor their blood oath to use gold as a medium among them. Maybe somebody will stop them, it's pretty pointless to argue about the nature of the apocalypse. You're insisting that people who argue for gold are scammers, but since those people can ignore you this will only affect the price if people believe you. Hence shilling. You're not really interested in why those people believe that, you seem to want to argue against it.

Aha! is gov making me believe in the laws with money or with bullets? If people can ignore my bullets like I can ignore gold then why arent we all ignoring the gov?

are you retarded? gold has always been a sign of wealth for centuries

What period in between those centuries?

so violence solves everything? I can just pay people to be more violent than you. if I'm wrong then explain every war in history that paid their soldiers.

hmm I see your point, but these no-gold cucks you speak of, like OP, it's a given they have zero gold in the first place. Probably grandmothers old chain, which they sell to cash-4-gold jews for less than half the value (because of retardation and a lack of understanding the value of gold). If and when I buy gold, I always pay fair value, to protect my rep as an honest user.

>I am the baddest internet tough-goy who ever posted on Sup Forums
>See me roar!!

You can't eat gold nor can you use it (effectively) as a means of defense. It's value comes from other people valuing it as well. During an apocalypse scenario, gold is a liability because it's heavy.

Shelter, water, food, guns, ammo. That's the currency in an apocalypse scenario. If you choose to have gold, that's fine. Just remember you need to eat too.

dat snake

I dont know nigger I only know that gold has been used as currency since forever

The gov is making you believe its laws with bullets. People can't ignore your bullet, they never can. Military concerns always take precedence over contracts and trade. Right now you can vow that whatever apocalypse may come, gold will mean nothing to you. That doesn't prevent other people from using it as a medium. You can always try and intervene with your bullets, but they have bullets too. Even five people could decide to run their household in gold, and all the rules of the bullet still apply. So I'm not saying that anybody can ignore bullets, but actually that 'given bullets', preppers believe that gold will be worth something because of a shared belief in its value as money. Those people will probably still believe they'll have to protect their enterprise with bullets, but c'est la vie.

I think people are getting a bit hung up over whether or not the current gold price is worth it, or if gold investing is stupid at any price. It might be that canned beans are worth more than gold bars after the apocalypse, but this only affects the price of current gold according to how people make this judgment. How much gold will be traded for canned beans, if at all, will depend on how much gold is in the (local) economy that magically agreed to use the stuff. Maybe it's a gold bar per can since they live in fort knox, maybe not. Investing in gold is making a judgment call not just of whether gold is good money, but also if the current price is good.

Well they don't have to own gold right now in order to make a profit off of their belief. If the belief is true then they could short the stuff at any time.

Strawman. Did they get paid during a decentrilized collapse of goverment or when a goverment was in place to force the situation where they fight for gold?

he also said that if you have a gun an a lot of ammo then it doesn't matter.
you'd just take everything you need by force

Holy shit is that a jew defending the value of gold?

People who will have guns and gold will be the ones who will try to settle and have scammers among their ranks. They will be the ones who will lose their flexibility and have discord. Its a conflict not tower building and even a golden peddle in your boot bugging you can make the difference.

Lets say I have water and want bullets but the local bullet maker already has water and only accepts batteries as payment? should I go look for who knows how much time a battery seller who accepts water as payment?

fuck no, people would exchange their good and services for gold which they can use as an easy way to pay since gold coins (silver too) or bits are easy to carry around, why gold coins and not mud coins? because there's very little of it and very hard to find

>You can't eat gold nor can you use it (effectively) as a means of defense. It's value comes from other people valuing it as well. During an apocalypse scenario, gold is a liability because it's heavy.

>Heavy
>One ounce can feed your entire family for months
>Too heavy

>Shelter, water, food, guns, ammo. That's the currency in an apocalypse scenario. If you choose to have gold, that's fine. Just remember you need to eat too.

What's too heavy you retard, is all that garbage you listed above, which you can carry very very little of when you are driven out of your home. How many crates of ammo can you carry on your back when you are running for the border? Less than one. Gold buys you food on the run, and gets you across the border.

vimeo.com/3843927

Maybe but you're basically making the case that local economies that run on gold will be outcompeted. Of course this depends on what actually happens, so you'll have to take it up with the preppers. It's probably very interesting to debate the military particulars of apocalyptic anarchy but idk if it's a good answer as to why people invest in gold right now.

Unless you are talking a mad max scenario, gold will always have value.
The odds of a full collapse of that proportion are very slim.
It would also have to be a world wide scenario, since gold would still hold value in other countries.
So unless there is a world wide catastrophe, where banks, airports, and business shut down world wide, you are good.
Plus you always have that small window while shit is starting to it the fan to get the fuck out.

It will be vikings vs monks lol.