I have to convince my lefty friend that communism is bad...

I have to convince my lefty friend that communism is bad. I keep pointing out why it doesn't work and all of the atrocities commited by communist states, but he keeps using the argument "true communism was never established",
give me all your proof and reasoning of why communism is bad and shouldn't exist.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin#Critique_of_Marxism
mises.org/sites/default/files/Socialism An Economic and Sociological Analysis_3.pdf
mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-analysis
aryanism.net/politics/national-socialism-and-communism/
twitter.com/AnonBabble

bump, i'm fucking serious

>true communism was never established

Id first start off with asking him what current country's run under communism.. if he cant answer that then u auto win. tell him he prob should do more research on a topic.

if he names the 5
People's Republic of China
Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea)
Socialist Republic of Vietnam
Lao People's Democratic Republic (Laos)
Republic of Cuba

then id tell him how is NK people? hungry and poor
how are china people? hungry and poor
ect.. and go down the list of why there all bad lol

I did that actually, but he says that true communism was never established and that no countries currently are TRUE communist countries, only capitalist shitholes and fascist dictatorships.
I'm not sure how am I supposed to fight that, any clue?

bumpedooooo

i need answers

>lefty friend

i'm trying to convert him ok, that's the point

first start with asking him what are the difference between communism and dictatorship if he cant tell u this then once again he auto loeses because he cant defending his view point

While the Chinese Communist Party has adopted some aspects of capitalism, China remains a textbook communist country: The Party controls all land and the “Commanding Heights of the Economy“; it maintains strict controls on speech, assembly, and belief; and the Chinese regime’s political structure is that of a classic Leninist dictatorship.

Many top Chinese business people are Communist Party members who serve in the regime’s rubber stamp legislature or its political advisory body And in line with textbook Marxist teachings, the Party is the only true landowner in China; the Party leases land to the Chinese people.

The Party employs over 2 million internet police to censor public opinion and maintains a powerful internet firewall to keep out the global internet within China’s borders. Population control officers force Chinese women to stick to the state-mandated child limit and carry out forced abortions and sterilizations against women who don’t conform.

i mean i can go on and on.. but china is a true communist country

True communism to a communist would be communism that works. Since communism never works, there's never been true communism.
It's simple delusion.
Furthermore, communist countries are always poor because the state must make everyone equal. But this requires the state to be extremely powerful to enforce this ideal. Meaning the state must be more powerful than the people collectively as a whole.
Meaning the people are kept dirt fucking poor.
Every time.
That's communism.
In capitalism there's poor, moderate, and rich people. Yet in communism, everyone just gets to be dirt poor and that is communism working. As it's meant to.

True communism cant be tried because its a fucking meme. You cant redistribute wealth without mass purges

No amount of reasoning will convince a Communist, you might as well go argue with an Evangelical about God, except it's even worse because Commies typically have at least 110 IQs

try and convert him to fascism, it's the best ideology for our countries in this time period

also use the argument that if it always turns out the same way, then that is real communism, because it's the REALity of the ideology

Its foundational principles that everyone is inherently equal and that any existing inequalities can be eliminated through proper societal engineering are false

tell your freind lets give it a try.. your the president now.. give me your money and ill give u an even share after i take my government cut

1) We have ample evidence that you can NOT improve the world as a whole by focusing on economic differences exclusively. While poverty will hold back a people, eliminating poverty in itself does absolutely nothing to ensure a happy world unless countless other factors favor it-- but communism eliminates or downplays all those other factors, and thus ends in miserable totalitarianism.
2) EVERY ideological system that seeks to impose rigid principles on the actual structures of life (which are organic and NOT the result of imposed principles) will ALWAYS lead into a vicious cycle in which a) more and more control is needed in order to enforce the principles. b) as more control is exerted, less value comes from what the principles were supposed to bring; c) As things detereriorate, leaders cling more rigidly to whatever principles they can, lacking any other plan; d) you are left with the an absolute miserable totalitarian tyranny.

Stop imagining that political questions are about "which system is morally right". That is a delusion. Moral governance can NEVER be imposed in a system. This same issue affects natsoc., by the way.

"China isn't communist, but rather socialist
because it has money and a currency, which doesn't follow the basic principles of communism."

communism will be the only option once we reach sufficient automatization to ensure there are enough resources for all of us and all the work is done by robots, your friend will be right when we conquer space but until then just accept that communism can't even be tried right now because we don't need everyone to work, you can only try communism either if everyone works or no one does

it's such an unnatural ideology too, we need hierarchy, leaders, currency and a purpose in life (working)

how about you grow a pair and stop being “friends” with liberals? you do realize they support either directly or indirectly the genocide of the white race? like seriously, how you “red pilled”-lite faggots can overlook the fucking evil these inhuman cunts believe in and maintain friendship is not only sickening but in itself earns you a roping when the day comes
basically fuck you you traitorous faggot, and your gay friends too

pretty sure that text is longer than the actual doctrine of fascism by il duce, also by his definition fascism is whatever works, constant action and constant improvement, as such I'm pretty sure it could easily be perverted into the worst system yet

"True communism" is not attainable because humans are imperfect

It's not bad it worked in your shithole

what school of thought does he subscribe to?
your friend is nice
mutual aid by kropotkin adresses this very well desu.

If technology creates a condition in which there is a drastic reduction in the need for labor, then we will have a global economic situation imposed by the facts. Then it will be meaningless to even call what results "communism" or anything else. It will simple be a new era, starting from scratch. Every idea up until this point has been based on the idea that labor is always needed, and will tend to be available if conditions are arranged properly.

it's not just unnatural, it isn't even conceptually coherent. It involves masses of people somehow acting with a unified will, as one agent. It literally doesn't mean anything.

I don’t think a chump like your friend could comprehend our biting wit.

nah m8, we need to make our societies good enough to trigger the rome effect and destroy ourselves trough degeneracy, death by titties > eternal suffering

Your friend is done for, Yuri Bezmenov describes his type perfectly. He will only realize he's wrong when the revolutionaries will put him to the wall and shoot him.

>mutualism don't real

well if you put it like that sure, but the closest word we have to describe such a system would be communism

...

That is correct, mutualism don't real. A significant percentage of human interaction is zero-sum.

Even if it weren't, the prisoner's dilemma precludes the possiblity of pure cooperation among different minds.

Marx says society goes through stages:
primitive communism -> slave society -> feudalism -> capitalism -> socialism -> communism
In states following this plan, communism never gets to be tried because of the failure of socialism. So saying communism has never been tried is misleading.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Bakunin#Critique_of_Marxism

The "No True Communism" is a bit irrelevant. The "final stage = communism" was always written as some sort of scifi robot labor utopia by Marx.

communism is just total socialism. so if socialism didnt work why would more of it work?

What are better alternatives to communism?

Communism is plagued by shitty leadership due to a lack of power structure or checks on the government's power. When you allow a single human to control 99% of the country, chances are that it won't go swimmingly because humans are corrupt by nature.

that's prmaily due to the pevailing society we live in. captialism works on that notion.
it won't. ancom is true com

"Pure cooperation" is completely irrelevant to real world politics.
Nor is there anything inherent and unescapable about zero-sum outcomes. It is entirely possible to continually improve collective outcomes. However, this will NOT happen by imposing an ideology. It must be developed and allowed to happen ORGANICALLY. Such development is the exact opposite of imposed ideology. Look for this understanding to emerge in the next century.

mises.org/sites/default/files/Socialism An Economic and Sociological Analysis_3.pdf
or hardcover
mises.org/library/socialism-economic-and-sociological-analysis
Tell him if he is going to talk smack he should be better informed.
If he is not a total retard reading that book will cure him

Get over the idea that all truth is contained in these Victorian and 20th century political ideologies. Prepare to have the whole ecosystem of concepts swept away. They are past expiration date. The futility of many of the base understandings should be becoming clear.

My opinion is that any society will have these problems because they are impossible to eradicate.

Seeing as every single society we have evidence of today or historically follows this pattern, forgive me for not being all that convinced that this is going to change.

When Communists talk about the inevitable and organic development of class consciousness it sounds at very best like Hegelian 'philosophy' and at worst something a lot closer to Mr Marx's...cultural-ethnic origins.

try to get him to be nazbol atleast if he's that hell bent on socialism, it can actually work because it is basically natsoc without the expansionism and with intercultural respect plus some freedoms, nazbols seem to be cancer despite their ok ideology tho.

capitalism

>they actually all have nightvision goggles provided by the great leader

can we all just go all out foreheads against ghosts and be a worldwide union of egoists
bullets work grat for eradicating those spooks :^)
in all srsness it's all about the propaganda we grow up on as a society.
you just need to win the prop war

Also, how would I counter the
"all it takes is a strong will of the people and no opposition for everyone to live better" argument? I mean, it sounds bullshit when I say it, but fuck I can't really prove communism is bad when if everyone wanted communism, we would be living better off.

Game theory proves that voluntary communism would never work.
History proves that enforces communism would always become tyrannical.

However you’re never going to make him change his mind by trying to win. You need to make him realise these on his own while appearing on his side

Did you even read what I said? We have zero examples of a society existing without those traits.

That's not propaganda, that's strong evidence that what you want is just not possible. The fact that every time people who call themselves Marxists take charge of a government it doesn't end well is further evidence.

>Capitalism
where everyone is poor and a few people have all the money

>Communism
where everyone is poor because the state doesn't allocate the resources properly

What's the difference?

>communism is bad

But it's not. It's literally the best road map we have for utopia.

But it's not an utopia, just a roadmap that starts at "revolution" and ends at "hungry capitulation"

does he really think that will happen? tell him to watch TV and remind him that that's what most people right now think, humans are a bunch of retards and he overestimates humanity

>starts at "revolution"

That's the bolsheviks fault. Trying to speed it up.

The revolutions were supposed to be natural.

revolutions are healthy though. the facts show that even though communism fails it does succeed in redistributing the wealth. Just like in France. most of the country was in extreme poverty before they started cutting heads off. after that economic conditions improved.

Ask him how will he build communism in Africa.

You can't seriously be invoking a period that involved things named 'the Reign of Terror' in a positive light

Just ask how much of the stuff i worked for you deserve

it was only a reign of terror for the rich and the scabs. for everyone else economic conditions improved.

>But it's not.
Of course it's bad, you fucking retard.
>It's literally the best road map we have for utopia.
I literally cannot think of a harder slam against both communism and the idea of utopia than that. The problem is, you're so dumb that you think it's a defense of communism.

>Let's murder thousands of people because I want stuff
Well ok then. dont cry when your family is raped and murdered if you guys have more than 10k a year in wages

but communism does work, but not in large scale.

Tell him that it's unfair to pit a purely hypothetical utopian ideal against a current capitalist system with flaws and all. The way he's framing the discussion, he will never lose because of his delusion.

Just say to your friend that communism only works when all the people work hard for it. The problem is that nobody ever will.

I did. The thing is his argument is "but what if they do", and I have no clue what to say against that.

Ask him if he belives in Santa.

Revolutions are not natural.

>not true communism
Tell them communism leads to death. Either copters, or starvation, or being ratted by your """fellow""" commie.

Relentlessly mock him with memes.

Nope.
It had famine and peasants rebellions.
The monarchy almost returned due to the corruption of the republican leaders and incompetent politicians it was due to a coup made by napoleon and even after that France was never capable of returning to it's former glory of cultural and intelectual center of the world.
Instead give birth to abominations like post modernism.

I could give my position on it, but it would basically be this article anyway.
aryanism.net/politics/national-socialism-and-communism/