The John B Calhoun mouse experiments

>The John B Calhoun mouse experiments.

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journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/00359157730661p202
nature.com/articles/hdy198339
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022191085901180
researchgate.net/publication/271758313_The_Effects_of_Population_Density_and_Composition_on_Viability_in_Drosophila_melanogaster
twitter.com/SFWRedditVideos

overcrowding is bad. it is known.

Total bullshit. Unreplicated, ideological and contrary to known evolutionary laws.

Calhoun was trying to make an ideological point about overpopulation, not do actual science. According to known evolutionary laws, the mice would have just evolved to better manage at high population densities, rather than die off completely. Calhoun probably poisoned them.

>Unreplicated

You must be one of the pretty ones.

Like most strains of laboratory mice, those used in the experiment were heavily inbred. Inbreeding in mice has been known to produce autistic like behaviors similar to those displayed by the mice in the experiment. Also, the conditions aren't directly comparable to the modern world, which allows for more movement and more sanitary conditions

This all being said, the general conclusion of the experiment I think is probably right, but the experiment itself and logic used to achieve the conclusion is biased and flawed. Have you read the actual paper? It's almost more philosophical than scientific. Anyways I agree that the modern world is deeply disturbed by overpopulation and easy access to material comfort, and you don't need a mouse experiment to prove it. Just check out the skyrocketing suicide rates, obesity rates, the opioid crisis, the NEET phenomenon...

Are you larping as a retard or what?

Where's your argument PMAN?

>known evolutionary laws

>known evolutionary laws
>mice will evolve to tolerate high population densities with a few generations
Maybe you should crack open that biology textbook again there Einstein

Which evolutionary law says that once a population reaches a certain arbitrary density, it suddenly enters a rapid decline and goes extinct? Calhoun clearly poisoned them.

Literally retarded

Not an argument.

The experiment is about the psychological effects of overcrowding, it has nothing to do with evolution.

>which scientific law says that the world is teeming with millions of little bugs we can't see without a microscope?

That actually makes more sense than what you're saying.

He performed his expirement more than once just to make sure it wasn't some fluke, both results were the same.

10/10 i’ll take this bait lad

Link to full study please?

The "experiment" was about enclosing a bunch of rats in a sealed environment and then feeding them forever. This would just evolve mice that are good at dealing with overcrowding.

The results were fake both times, Calhoun was a hippy faggot spreading the overpopulation meme of the 70's. Overpopulation was the global warming of its time, totally fake media hysteria backed up by fake science. Calhoun's work is full of flakey Freudian psychobabble. There is absolutely no biological reason why the rat populations would have gone extinct. They would just stabilize at the Malthusian limit and slowly evolve to better compete for the limited resources available.

journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/00359157730661p202

Evolution doesn't work on that time scale you dumb fuck

Was the issue overpopulation, or the lack of natural selection and the necessitation for mice to actually work for their food and survival?

>This would just evolve mice that are good at dealing with overcrowding.
>total instinctual changes in 5 generations

Holy Christ

Evolution is not magic, it is just selection, and it works instantaneously. Those rats that best handle the difficult conditions within their habitat would be more likely to reproduce successfully, those rats who couldn't would be out-competed and fail to reproduce. With every generation you would have rats that would be increasingly adept at managing their environment, as the maladaptive genes were weeded out of the population and the adaptive genes would become increasingly common.

Calhoun's explanation is that the mice basically suffered from a spiritual malaise and decided to stop reproducing and die from sadness.

1. evolution doesnt happen nearly that fast
2. extreme overcrowding is going to fuck up at least something and probably create some extreme introverts. Do you really think if you cram 999999 rats into a box there isnt going to be a lot of death? Regardless of resources

>evolution doesnt happen nearly that fast
This is a retarded meme. The rate at which evolution occurs is proportional to the rate of selective pressure. Evolution occurs in every generation, there is no minimum time period required.
>Do you really think if you cram 999999 rats into a box there isnt going to be a lot of death?
Of course. There would be brutal competition for limited resources, but the population would eventually stabilize at the Malthusian limit. Calhoun's complete population extinctions are totally fake, they cannot be accounted for by any known biological laws. He almost certainly poisoned his rats in order to make an ideological point about overpopulation.

I have never seen such a perfect mating of monstrous autism and staggering scientific ignorance, and I am glad to have been here to witness it

nice wojack template, straya
got any more?
t. ocfag

>overcrowding

That wasn't never the point of the experiment. It was to how social creatures would react when everything was provided for them. Food, safety, entertainment, everything was given so they could live without outside stress factors and see how it would effect a population over time.

That is what caused the societal collapse.

Where's your argument?

This
The mice didnt even have immigrants to deal with.

>t. Doomsday preaching retard

Yeah, but it was done with mice.

>evolve to do X
This isnt fucking pokemon. For a population to evolve, there would have to be repeated breeding to have offspring that is most genetically fit to survive in that environment AND seem like mate material. And they would have to wait another generation and they'd have to hope that it doesn't get overcrowded before any rat exists with the traits you described. And if it did, it'd have to outcompete and breed with enough rats.

Calhoun himself cautioned against analogizing rat social structures to humans. As we've seen due to the advent of the fucking internet, humans have a practically infinite capacity for generating subcultures in which they may chase social prestige and standing, evidenced by the insane purity spiralling of Sup Forums, a board where everybody is Anonymous yet still falls into accusing everybody of being not white or a shill.

fine you dense motherfucker
1. evolving adaptations that would promote mass survival in rats doesnt occur nearly fast enough for them to adapt to those rapidly-changing conditions/demographics
2. there was never complete extinction, just a trend toward that end and temporary cessation of breeding because the mice were so fucked up in those generations. Mass death was inevitable
>n-no only poisoning could have caused the genocide

This spiritual malaise, what was hypothesized to be the cause? Overpopulation or struggle for survival?

...

Problem, is there would have to be rats that are born AND they would have to mate for the population to evolve. Those traits don't magically show up because the situation demands it either. The rats that reproduce aren't automatically deemed fit to succeed in that environment, they have approximately the same survival rate as the rest of them.

>The John B Calhoun mouse experiments.
Yeah except we aren't fucking animals. Most of us can see this shit coming.

but thats because they aren't white and are shills

>we arent animals

i have news for you user

It was due to the lack of a problem to deal with. Societal collapse was due to a lack of purpose. The mice still hand plenty of space and resources, yet groups of mice would crowd certain areas etc. Lack of resources wasn't the cause of demise.

...

Both statements are obviously wrong. The mice probably acted in that manner due to omnipresent pheromonal interaction from female -> male resulting in males who are down regulated in male hormones (a known phenomenon in human couples living together/having children IIRC). It is not comparable to overpopulation directly.

The one where the species evolved under and for a completely different circumstance, NOT being packed together. That one.

>we aren't fucking animals
LMAO.
Learn some biology, the only thing separating us from monkeys is a bit of self awareness.

>Most of us can see this shit coming.
No.

>Those rats that best handle the difficult conditions within their habitat would be more likely to reproduce successfully

There are species of mice capable of living in the high arctic in the middle of winter, but guess what will happen if you dump a bunch of house mice out of your igloo? You get mousicles. Some mice might last 5 minutes before they freeze, and some might last 10, but the selection pressure is too great to be counteracted by any genetic variation in the founder population. It would take many, many generations and much lower (i.e. actually survivable) selection pressure to get mice which were capable of living in such cold conditions. It's no different in this case - some mice may have had a greater genetic ability to withstand overcrowding*, but the pressure of such extreme overcrowding overwhelmed any ability to adapt

*they didn't, since they were lab mice which had been inbred for dozens of generations and were as close to clones of each other as it was possible to be.

>necessitation
>actually
kys

You don't know! By the very nature of Sup Forums you can't know! That's part of the joke of being here, and in this particular instance it's evidence of my point.

need an Emily gf

>Which evolutionary law says that once a population reaches a certain arbitrary density, it suddenly enters a rapid decline and goes extinct?
No law.
My personal theory is that if the only possible way to live is against your nature, against what you evolved to be, you will suffer. And that is what happened.

>Calhoun clearly poisoned them.
Baseless accusation with zero evidence.

Do you happen to have a certificate clearing you of being donkeybrained? Oh you don't have any such certifications? Interesting.

New York City is the same thing as Calhoun's Mouse Utopia.
That's why it's filled with diseases of the body and mind, like AIDS and liberalism, and the people who live there reproduce at a severely lower rate than people elsewhere.

>equating humans to mice
Humans can evolve without breeding
I had forgotten how stupid people on pol are while i was away. How many of you faggot retards eat tidepods?

technically evolution is the accumulated genetic changes over at least one generation. An organism can undergo changes without breeding but it's not evolution until it breeds

Hello friend.

Read Calhoun's conclusion. It is a bunch of Freudian mystical bullshit. He doesn't give any plausible explanation for the total extinction of the population. He probably poisoned them.

>evolving adaptations that would promote mass survival in rats doesnt occur nearly fast enough for them to adapt to those rapidly-changing conditions/demographics
Food was always available. Theoretically, they had all the time in the world to evolve whatever traits you like. This argument is stupid because we don't even have a plausible explanation for why they went extinct. The mice were already pre-evolved to survive in the new environment, mice survive at high population densities all the time.
>there was never complete extinction
Not until he poisoned them.

Interesting. So what you are saying is that the males could have had their reproductive systems blown out by overexposure to female pheromones?

If that is the case, then the experiment doesn't tell us anything useful about overcrowding, only that the founding population was too inbred/insufficiently genetically diverse.

You can tell based on what a poster says and how they say it. Just like how I know you're a niggerfaggot.
Anyone have the breakdown on how swedes communicate in an extremely feminine manner?

Hes right. Others have replicated the study and found completely different results. No one person was ever able to replicate his results.

Sorry retards its all made up

>Interesting. So what you are saying is that the males could have had their reproductive systems blown out by overexposure to female pheromones?
If by reproductive system you mean the circadian rhythm of testosterone is suppressed and thus results in more feminine behavior then yes.

Creatures don't evolve over weeks. And humans haven't evolved fast enough to account for what's happening.

I mean they could if they have variant enough genes but obviously in this case that's ridiculously improbable

???

>mice survive at high population densities all the time.
Not in densities as high as in the experiment
Which studies?

Exactly.
Sources needed.

Still though Sigmund Fried was a kike faggot who thought incest was natural.

*Freud

>Sigmund Fried was a kike faggot who thought incest was natural.
well the shoe fits the foot user

He talks a bit about the applicability to man in his conclusion, but I'd hardly call it Freudian. Picture related:

Look up
nature.com/articles/hdy198339
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0022191085901180
researchgate.net/publication/271758313_The_Effects_of_Population_Density_and_Composition_on_Viability_in_Drosophila_melanogaster

...is an argument against socialism

>some of the beta male mice who cant get a female mate because the alphas take them turned gay and try to mate with the alphas too

Literally all the weebs on here who turn prison gay.

Look up carrying capacity, Muttnon.
And prove it using Lotka-Volterra equations

Literally, humans are not mice.

Thanks for the sauce.
I never meant to imply that Calhoun had Freudian beliefs.
Just wanted to remind everyone that he was one of (((them))).

Overpopulation leading to population collapse is a commonly observed pattern in nature, you brain dead piece of shit. Every creature from bacteria to deer are subject to it.

JACKSONFAGS BTFO