Universal Basic Income/Guaranteed Income

What are some arguments?

For?

Against?

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youtube.com/watch?v=oDkHLPanjkQ
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those are some rotten looking hot dogs my friend.

Inflation, welfare immigration, public debt. Once enough retards start enjoying it they will vote to increase it

If you give everyone some thing, the thing is suddenly nothing worth anymore.
Basic income would just lead to money being worth less and nothing would change.

But how is that not different from say a tax cut and/or welfare?
Isn't it just the government moving money around?
I guess I just don't understand it if it's not explained thoroughly

stupid people always outnumber smart people, by giving everyone the resources to breed your system will eventually collapse as the average IQ drops below what is necessary to continue it.

UBI is a horrible idea, free market private enterprise is basically how to keep natural selection at work without going back to the stoneage.

>tax cut
Only goes to working people

Population of a society is 100.
There is a limited amount of resource X that is needed to survive, the amount is 80,
20 people will die due to not getting this resource. In a market economy, the price of X will be bid up and the 80 people who are the wealthiest(contributed the most to society) will survive. Give every person a basic income of $1, good X gets bid up by $1. The same 80 people survive, nothing has changed.

>trusting the system to treat you well when you've made yourself superfluous
How can people be this stupid?
The only thing that lead to prosperity for people in general is economic integration. You have to make yourself an important part of the system. Because you cannot trust it otherwise.

Okay, so a tax break of $1000 for working people and welfare check for $1000 for non-working people

How is that different from what is going on today and what's wrong with it?

>free market enterprise
That's an interesting idea, can you expand on that and how a UBI would complicate it?

How does that translate into real world logic?
And is there a way that we could feasibly spread resources out so that everyone benefits?

For: I'm a person therefore give me free stuff

Against: Don't just give shit to people who haven't earned it

Those are literally the arguments.

Massive inflation, cost of goods would skyrocket and a few million people would leave the workforce.

>tax break of $1000 for workers and a check for $1000 to non-workers
This creates a $2000 deficit. Now multiply that by 30 million and you can see how it may become a problem

id rather let the useless people in society die then support them.
We will never grow as a species.

Those who cannot figure out how to feed themselves don't deserve to live.

youtube.com/watch?v=oDkHLPanjkQ

I'm actually in favor of UBI but for right-wing reasons ; first, it would be possible ONLY if ALL other forms of gibsmedat are abolished, and if the amount of money given is not too high (I would say about 25-30% of the minimum legal wage) . I think it would definitely teach people not to mess around with their money and at least they won't be able to ask for more money : it will be the UBI for everyone and nothing else, take it or leave it, from your 18th birthday until your death, so no one would be able to rigg the system, and if you want more money you'll have to work for it.

if there ever was a universal basic income it should be water and electricity maybe food too(you can grown your own veg inside and outside).

The most liberating thing you can give someone is actual resources that you would use money for in the first place

>You can survive without working
>Entertainment is cheap as fuck

Why would most people ever work?

seems like a jewish trick to bankrupt a nation

Basically we are going to need it since so many jobs are going to be automated like driving and cashier jobs

>For
Automation will eventually make work too scarce so that the majority of people will literally not be able to work.
>Against
The 0.1%ers will literally own the bottom 99.9%. Not wealth, but as in literally, like slaves, own them because they will control all the wealth.

Can I use ubi money to buy a sex doll?

It's total dependence on hostile western governments. Low employment is entirely a function of corporatism. We don't even remotely need UBI. The fact that we're broaching the topic now and hinting that it's "gonna get worse because of AI" is just conditioning. There are too many barriers to employment and self employment. You simply need to remove the corporate hand from policy and people will find a way to pass money around and there would be no more need for welfare than there ever was.

>give the jews more power goyim

Let's think about this rationally.

Anyone who is so useless that they lose their job to a computer program deserves to be put to death, not supported with financial assistance.

That is not how economics works. Jesud fucking christ you guys are all complete retards

It will be attached to fertility 'rights' when implemented

Making more people reliant on the govt. is not the answer.

>can you expand on that and how a UBI would complicate it?

you're taking money away from smart people which means they'll breed less

I'm pro-UBI on libertarian reasons, since at that point you can basically go 'fuck the benefits fraud department, fuck minimum wage, fuck excessive regulation'
It'd also allow for some serious high octane fuel in the free market economy as people wouldn't be afraid to attempt being self-employed. You'd see a massive, massive explosion in small businesses

There are no arguments for it; it solidifies a consumerist underclass perpetually fed by a central bank debt which formalizes Jewish control of whatever country implements UBI.

Wealth distribution only works if you distribute it unevenly. If you distribute it to everyone, it is if nothing has happened. That's why it even theoretically can't work.

The only way to pay for it would be to have a 100% income tax on everybody, force everybody to work and kill off anyone who doesn't want to(or can't), and persecute anybody smart enough to oppose this system.

Any user that can tell me the name of this form of system of government gets a (you).

>pro-UBI on libertarian reasons

I'd like to add that universal income would not only ensure that no one under 120 IQ works, it will also drive the prices of everything else up through the roof.
Universal income would basically be the new zero, which means every job will have to pay way more than universal income, which means every product's price will have to increase to be able to afford paying workers the wages this demands.
And then we are worse off then we started.

What is communism.

To have more than the bare minimum. Not everyone would be happy living in a commie block and eating ramen every day.

Automation will increasingly displace those jobs anyway.

It already exist but white are excluded from.

UBI would mean I wouldn't pay taxes. I would open a new bank account for the state to transfer my UBI, wired it to the IRS and forget about it.

There are plenty of arguments against it.

What is the argument for it?

...

this summarizes what is wrong with socialism

>tfw i basically live like this
>while working and trying to get an engineering degree in a meme university
>it'll probably get me nowhere since everybody has such degrees

It's already the case. It's call taxes.

Look at those sweet potatoes sheeiittt

You're right, and it's just as scary of a problem.
Wth we are going to do about AI I have no idea.
Whoever invents it is going to be the richest and most powerful company in the world and people are (at least over time) going to be completely replaced by robots.
Higher IQ jobs will take longer to displace, but it will happen regardless.
This is all assuming AI turns out to be ethical and doesn't destroy us (which is a another can of worms).

How will we live once we can't contribute to society anymore?
I have no clue.
Maybe income won't matter by then because no one will have wealth to spend and we'll move over to some futuristic robo-communist utopia.

For: Well what the fuck else are we going to do once automation starts driving human jobs out of existence without being replaced by new jobs (older forms of automation just drove animals out of the work force but still needed a human operator. new AI based Automation requires no humans and directly replaces human jobs), just deal with 50%+ unemployment and widespread poverty? I mean eventually the entire economy will collapse because a huge chunk of the population will have no income in order to buy things that keep businesses profitable. Who are they going to sell to?

Arguments against: Until automation DOES replace a substantial amount of the labor force you'll have lower labor force participation and higher inflation.

So basically UBI requires a large portion of the labor force being replaced by AI to make it work.

>What are some arguments?
>For?
>Against?
>35 replies a

Wants to turn us all into a bunch of niggers living off of government gibs.

Easier to control and manipulate. If you think kicking us off of social media sites is bad, just wait till they control your whole salary.

>Whoever invents it is going to be the richest and most powerful company in the world and people are (at least over time) going to be completely replaced by robots.

It's called natural selection. The intelligent and resourceful are devising ways to eliminate the ignorant and lazy so that we are no longer burdened by you.

Goodbye idiot, enjoy being replaced by software.

>Removes pensions, fraud, benefits, basically an entire segment of government for one pretty much automated 1/month payment to all citizens, resulting in a vastly smaller government
>Not Libertarian
Hurbadurbadoo.

UBI would basically just be a big tax cut for the working man and a more efficient program for the gibsmedats.
You could effectively cut away all administrative personnel and investigators (to check for fraud).
In the end it would be a win.
At least for countries that already have massive welfare systems, like all of scandinavia. For the US, who fucking knows, immigration countries tend to work different in many ways.

t. brainlet

>so that we are no longer burdened by you.
>we
>you

top kek

>t. brainlet

Sorry, I don't waste enough of my life on Sup Forums to understand your unintelligible gibberish. What are you trying to say? Try again idiot

UBI is leagues better than the current welfare system if they can make it work.

UBI + flat tax rate with no exemptions means that you have a social security system where everyone is treated exactly the same, regardless of income, employment status, class etc

You have the social safety net, but at the same time, it respects the existence of the classes and differing income levels.

That's why, despite kneejerk accusations of it being communist, it is considered by many economists to be a right wing solution to the social safety net problem.

How about this: you get UBI, but you must get sterilized.

"High IQ" does not make you safe.
It just means it's going to take a little longer to replace your job.
But once general intelligence is on the go, no one is safe and robots will do any job better than you.
That includes philosophy, math, scientific research, anything you can imagine.

How does it work?

If everyone on earth had 0 dollars, then they all have 0 dollars.
If you give everyone on earth 1,000 dollars, 1,000 becomes 0.

that would be great, the EU should give us UBI for not doing anything. And it should be equal in all member states.

I actually work on AI for a living. Right now the state-of-the-art AI is nothing more than a few tricks using linear algebra.

Nevermind though, I'll listen to ignorant retards on Sup Forums telling me that I am wrong. Keep fear-mongering about a subject you know nothing about lmfao

Okay thought experiment. How exactly are you going to survive when a majority of people have no income to buy things, if you're a business owner you'll have no customers, no profit, you're closing up shop. Huge chunks of the country having no income hurts everyone across the board, even wealthy investors, because if nobody's buying anything, profits go down and stocks go belly up too.

What do you do for a living right now?

It would make most people do absolutely nothing with their lives, just rotting away, until the society would collapse (unless some measure is taken to prevent that).

Unfortunately, it is likely an inevitable future for humanity. At least, one of the inevitable futures, depending on how the wars in coming decades turn out. If most of the work is automated, society will get forced to pay UBI because otherwise the pissed off mob will just fuck everything around them up until they get it, because they're hungry. Just look at the situation in Spain or Greece, where youth unemployment is high as hell. There aren't that many jobs that will be made in the future thanks to new tech, any that would be will immediately be checked whether or not they can be automated from the start. Work that already exists, will get more and more automated until a lot of people are just unemployable because there isn't enough unskilled job openings around.

And before someone throws the meme that no job can get automated fully, consider this. If you work 8 hours now, but in 5 years you only need to work 6 hours, thanks to automation, your employer can fire up to 25% of his workers and make you work the full time again, except the employer gets more work done. 100% automation on 20% of jobs is unattainable, however 20% automation on 100% of jobs is far more likely. Either way, up to 20% of workers are out of a job, either when the management notices they can save money, or the company gets forced to save money due to depression.

>money is literally worthless
>lets give people free money
i try to make my girlfriend understand this but she refuses to grasp the concept. Wealth/Worth is a measure of difference,

I support it, but only for the disabled or elderly. People who don't have the option to work, or can't provide for themselves should receive a minus living wage, people who want a free ride in life will get redirected to the Jobs Posting office

either way a LOT of work is easy to displace
pretty much all non-skilled work is at risk

I support it, but only on these conditions:

1. It will ensure that you will not die from starvation.

2. It will ensure that you will not die from lack of housing and exposure to the elements.

3. It will ensure that you will not die from lack of medical care.

Basically, every citizen will never have to die because they simply cannot afford to live. Can't afford housing and might die in the street? We have you covered. Can't afford food and you'll die from multiple organ failure? We have you covered. Can't afford to have that tumor removed from your brain? We have you covered.

Want a bigger home, nicer clothes, more fuel-efficient car, and that new pair of Raybans? Get a fucking job.

Do your own homework OP!

I'm not sure you understand what "universal" means.

>The only way to pay for it would be to have a 100% income tax on everybody

The "RSA", our NEETbux, is 545€/month. It cost 8,5 billion euro/years. We give 9 billion euro to easterners like you every years thanks to the EU. 1 billion euro/year for illegal (yes, fucking illegal) people medical care.

Last years, 2 billions for 20 000 shitskins 35y old "kids". And even more money for the rest of them.

I say it's time to get some of this sweet money for productive white people.

It won't always be that way.

Not necessarily. UBI is basically a ration of currency for which to decide what resources you need to do with it. One person will prioritize one thing, another will prioritize something different. If a person owns a house, they don't have to pay rent, so as long as they keep up with property taxes, they can use the money that would have been for rent towards something else. A person that doesn't own a home will have to prioritize rent.

So there'll be a difference in disposable income still.

I think the same thing about normal benifits
giving out money is never a good idea, giving out resources (clothes, food, water, ect) is a way better idea because it still pushes people to work for what they want without worrying about being dead

It would be a cost saving move. By giving ubi you would also eliminate food stamps, unemployment, ssi and other assistance programs. This is less bureaucracy, less over head, less cost.

Beyond government manipulation of markets, what would stop an immediate price jump in all things?

You've never actually thought about this despite working it.
Impressive.
I'm fully aware of how pathetic AI is right now, that's irrelevant.

The point is it seems almost impossible that we won't eventually discover how to make general intelligence with hardware.
We already know it's possible, because our brains are hardware with general intelligence.
If we just keep improving our AI, eventually we will hit that mark.
The time-frame is highly debated, but the inevitability is not.

And once we have general intelligent AI, either we or other AI's will continue to improve it.
And after that human intelligence will be useless.

>mfw this nigger doesnt realize doctors and surgeons are being replaced by computers
The only people who wont have their jobs stolen by AI is NEETS who do fast food reviews on youtube or some shit.

I'm going to skip all the replies to this thread and give you a better option.
It's called a UNIVERSAL JOB GUARANTEE.
If you can't find work, and assuming you're not disabled or something, you do work for the government building public works projects and things like that. Sound better?

Work gives us purpose and we would be at complete mercy of the Government if we submitted to UBI.

People enjoy working believe it or not. Most people go insane just sitting around mindlessly.

200m adults
multiplied by $######/yr

Good luck, especially when a lot of them won't cycle it through the economy and just hoard.

Unfortunately what happens is these ubi people just vote to increase the ubi until they can afford said raybans.

take the US and now try to cram 200 million people into government meme jobs

At some point you end up with people doing basically nothing for no reason other than to tick a box

So I'm supposed to pay the government to give me money?

The thing is that leftist governments use this as a way to breed more poor people living in dependence on the State, thus perpetuating leftists in government.

Literally vote cattle.

This argument is demonstrably wrong.

We already have welfare. In fact, in Australia, we have one of the most generous welfare systems in the world. You get a huge payout twice a month, the only requirement is to look for about 7 jobs a week, and you can be in the system indefinately.

So considering this, what do you think Australia is like at the moment? Is there a massive labour shortage for uneducated workers because everyone is in their apartments watching netflix? Are employers climbing over themselves to get people to work for them? Throwing themselves at the feet of every bum that walks by? Is getting a job mopping floors or flipping burgers so insanely easy down here?

No, it's not like that at all.
Because even though we have this system, there remains a fact about human nature:
The vast majority of well adjusted people, when given the choice between working or being unemployed, will always choose to work.

Survival as the only motivation to work is wrong and this country proves it.

so you're saying prices wouldn't rise cross the board if the government paid every person 15k a year?

Really, you sure you can't do anything with all that manpower?

>We give 9 billion euro to easterners like you every years thanks to the EU.
By all means, vote against it.
If possible, leave the EU entirely.
I'm saying this as a friend.

>I say it's time to get some of this sweet money for productive white people.
Or you could cut all welfare, use the money for an income tax break for the workers and let the niggers starve to death.

The only viable means of a UBI is to change they monetary policy to Social Credit.
Create money in relation to production, not on demand of private banks to earn more profit.

With a UBI you end the need for income tax, stop inflation and unleash the productive ability to the limit of the physically possible rather than what can be financed.
For a breakdown of how Social Credit will work for production.
michaeljournal.org/articles/social-credit/item/how-to-finance-production

You can go to war, which historically is the best way to stimulate an economy and create jobs, or job openings at least.

when machines have taken all of the manpower jobs? not really

but what about muh disabilities

If the government was printing money to give to people, then yes, you're right. Prices would rise.

But redistribution of money doesn't cause inflation

Maybe you could fund some sort of education for at least some of them to do scientific research? I wish NASA still had as much support as it used to, for instance, and I wonder if they could use that much manpower.
reread my post NEET

against. work and merit reward is a need for humans just as food or sleep. for a healthy society and individual, people must contribute in a way or another and basic income promote the opposite

We have decades of experience indicating that welfare dependency is bad for the social fabric of any community.

So clearly the answer is universal welfare!

UBI is a meme because no-one has an answer to technological unemployment
>inb4 luddite
>inb4 buggy whips
>inb4 learn2code

god what a retard

I like UBI better than maintaining an army of bureaucrats distributing welfare. Imagine the savings from all those "middle class" sheboons that populate all government offices being gone. Everyone gets the money, if you make more, it gets taxed away. No bullshit overhead. People who don't work still get welfare, this way the distribution gets much cheaper. If done on federal level, it fucks all the niggers who get welfare from multiple states. I don't see a problem with it. It is probably much cheaper than welfare too. But #1 reason is it cuts bureaucracy.

>If the government was printing money to give to people, then yes, you're right. Prices would rise.
Only if it was creating money faster than the market demand for currency. Right now banks (private and central) create hundreds of billions likely trillions each year, and inflation ticks along at a few percent. If we removed the right of banks to create money as debt and limited the creation of all money to the government controlled central bank you could balance the system with the creation of new money to be inflation or deflation free if you so wanted.

New money would be created debt free and distributed to the people. Not created by borrowing money from a bank and having your loan entered as an asset in their fractional reserve banking system.

>learn2Code

I love this one.
As if that's enough.
The coding market is highly competitive and being able to code hardly means shit anymore.
Now you have to understand all kinds of frameworks, different languages, databases, web, mobile and desktop development to be relevant.
Everyone learning to code won't isn't even enough right now, nevermind the time the robots start replacing folks.