DEBATE THREAD

Intelligence Squared Debates thread!
I'm John Donvan, and I'll be your host for this evening.
Our topic of debate is this: Pornography has ruined the internet.
The rules of the debate are thus: be respectful and clearly articulate your point of view. If you have any questions, you can start with a premise, but make sure to narrow it down to a succinct and cogent question.

Other urls found in this thread:

thinkprogress.org/the-real-porn-problem-ccee35d9e3a8/
betterfap.com/mashup/[email protected]/SGWH3do8
betterfap.com/u/[email protected]
youtube.com/watch?v=lQ2BYXVUIFc
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

It didn't just ruin the internet, it ruined lives.
Black males have been stereotyped as having large phallic members due to using prosthetics in pornographic movies and it has brought a stigma upon them that they have large penises. I don't like this! Black people are useless and it should be known! Pornography is tainting the way woman see niggers. And that sir, is not acceptable.

OP here:
Thank you for your argument that it ruins lives and your example about perception.
Does the other side have an argument against this?

The internet can not be ruined by porn, anymore then a car can be ruined by a paint job. Overall porn is kinda good, but really bad at the same time. Like Bonos music or Christian Slaters acting.

The internet continues to increase in size, scale and sophistication, with more and more applications coming on the scene every day ranging from business to leisure. I think it's fair to say that nobody is *forcing* people to spend more time on the internet, or invest larger and larger amounts of money on internet companies--this is happening because *people like the internet*, and making individual choices about how to allocate their time.

The simple fact is that pornography has quite clearly *not* ruined the internet--if it had, we would see the opposite of what we in fact see, namely more and better internet. This is why I urge you to vote against the motion tonight.

OP here:
OK. So, we have one argument for the motion and two arguments against the motion.
The side for the motion has stated that pornography alters the perception of those who view it, and they make a quality of life assessment.
The argument against the motion right now is that the internet can't be ruined, just like a paint job can't ruin a car and furthermore that the people viewing the internet are making the choice to view it, and therefore it cannot be ruined.
Again, I'm John Donvan, and the motion is: Pornography has ruined the internet.

Now, I'd like to take the motion back to the side for the motion.
How to you respond to your opponents argument that it's actually the user's choice in the matter?

If I can just jump in here John, I think it's also worth speaking up a little bit for porn. Regardless of what you think about the massive benefits that the internet has had in most areas of life--which I haven't seen the other side dispute--I think it's also quite clearly the case that on the narrow grounds of pornography itself, the internet has actually *benefited* from pornography.

Right now our economy is changing in ways that disproportionately harm a certain cohort of single, relatively uneducated men. Through something economists call "skill-biased technological change", we see this group of men really getting damaged. These are the people who in previous decades were heavily employed in things like construction and manual labor. Now, the internet and computers probably played a large role in *causing* these changes, but it's important to separate an evaluation of *pornography* from the internet overall. I would argue that the existence of free, widely available pornography has actually been a force that has *reduced* the negative effects of of the internet on those underemployed, uneducated men. The availability of internet porn has made being unemployed relatively more bearable. So rather than the internet being "ruined" by pornography, I think it's reasonable to say that in fact the negative social effects of the internet have been minimized by pornography.

Okay, but your opponent is saying that the perception of the users of pornography is changing-and not for the good-which is a reasonable argument. Are you conceding that point?

No. I think it's important to be clear about what we're debating here. The motion isn't "pornography has ruined users of pornography"--it's "pornography has ruined the *internet*". Whatever the negative effects of porn are on users overall--and like I've said, I'm skeptical about this--the fact remains that the internet is in high and increasing demand. The question about how pornography warps people's mind or degrades sexual morality and whatever are interesting questions--but that's not what we're debating here. I don't see the other side addressing the core fact that the internet--pornography and all--is thriving and growing.

Thank you. That's a very good point. Would the other side like to comment on that?
(I'm looking at you, other side)

And just a reminder to the audience: This is Intelligence Squared, I'm John Donvan and the topic we are debating tonight is: Pornography has ruined the internet.

I'm not hearing anything from the side for the motion, so I believe that means that the against side wins. *audience laughter*
I'd like to take questions from the audience now.
Yes! You there in the back!

Um, yes that's a good question. The audience member is right that in 2007 I had trouble finding some mp3s because of porn, but I think it's safe to say that with the advent of better search algorithms as well as a deepening of online music businesses, this problem isn't a big deal and doesn't seriously undermine my position. Please vote against the motion.

thinkprogress.org/the-real-porn-problem-ccee35d9e3a8/

-what

porn isnt that bad as long as you watch the right stuff.
link related its what i watch
betterfap.com/mashup/[email protected]/SGWH3do8
and
betterfap.com/u/[email protected]

I'm going to pass on that question, because I believe the side against the motion already covered that during their opening statement, but I appreciate the question.

does porn include suggestive imagery

because i would argue that suggestive imagery is a bigger corrupter of society than porn

I believe that was part of the pro-motion's main argument.

also i know you clicked on my links
the first link was a trap

anyways yes i would argue that porn doesnt usually translate into the real world very well and is kept private. on the other hand suggestive imagery is ok socially to imitate in the open which is a problem because it leads to attention whoring.

I have a question to the side that thinks porn ruined the internet:

Where would the internet be today without porn? Wouldn't all the technological advancements like HD videos and high speed streaming be years behind?

also its driving vr innovation simply by offering an enticing reason to buy one

That's a good question. Who would like to answer it?

you guys are definitely clicking on my link lol

seriously though where would vr be without porn

Both of these questions are being directed at the side for the motion.
We have heard a lot of good points from the side against, but not a whole lot from the side for the motion.
Would anyone like to step up and defend the motion: Pornography has ruined the internet?
Once again, I'm John Donvan and that is our motion.

I'll take this one John. The suggestion that pornography played a major role in driving innovation in internet video technology is just simply false. Video innovation has mostly occurred in Hollywood and television, and online the biggest innovators have been YouTube and Google. Pornography captures a massively large proportion of internet bandwidth at any given time, therefore reducing speeds and quality of internet services that have positive social value. Internet pornography corrupts culture, increases unemployment and underemployment, increases sexual assault and gender inequality, and degrades the quality and character of the internet.

Paradoxically, because the internet has destroyed the revenue and business model of pornography companies, yet accounts for a large proportion of internet bandwidth, pornography has probably *reduced* innovation in online video and VR because the profits per each unit of data are lower than they are for more traditional entertainment services. I urge you to vote for the motion.

The internet is a source of human consciousness. It reflects what is on our minds.

Apparently our minds are full of sex and unadulterated anger.

I actually want to believe NPR is running this thread and that there is hope for them.

I would just like to add that pornography sites are a very major source of malware, spyware and malicious computer activity. Just as we see in the real-world with prostitution and drugs, nefarious and socially corrupting activities tend to cluster together, and this is apparent in internet porn also. Porn has absolutely reduced the overall quality and functioning of our modern computer and internet-oriented society, and for this reason I urge you to vote for the motion.

I believe the question you're getting at is that if the human consciousness is what leads to pornography, that that makes it OKAY.
Thank you. Those are some valid points. How would you respond to the audience member's and your opponent's concern that about that reflective quality of the internet? How does that play into your argument?

sorry, that's all the time I have--maybe my partner can answer your question. Have a good night.

Thank you for your time. I believe the winner here is clear: Civil discourse.

Its not porn.
It-s women in general.

And yes we as a sociezy should vote to ban women

I love this thread and have added IQ2 back to my list of podcasts

Thank you to all of those who participated in tonight's debate!
We voted once at the beginning of the night, and once after each side has had a chance to argue for their positions, and now I'll announce the winners based on how those percentages changed.

Well?!

As you can see, at the beginning of the night, 56% were for the motion, 12% were against, and 32% were undecided.
After the debate, 56% were for the motion,
so zero is the number to beat.
31% were against the motion! That's a 19% gain. That makes the side against the motion our winners!
I'm John Donvan. This is Intelligence Squared. Thank you and have a good night!

OP here. After posting and moderating this thread, I did a search for a debate on pornography and actually found one that the UK version of Intelligence Squared did.
Here's the link to that if anyone's interested:
youtube.com/watch?v=lQ2BYXVUIFc