>Development on Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs began in early 1934 >He had to mortgage his house to help finance the film's production, which eventually ran up a total cost of $1,488,422.74, a massive sum for a feature film in 1937 3 years and a fuckton of money. No wonder anime never goes to that lenght to produce such fluid animation.
Juan Roberts
There will NEVER be animation as good as old Disney EVER AGAIN
How does that make you feel
Ethan Taylor
>such fluid animation Again, it's literally ROTOSCOPING. It's not even real animation, it's cheating.
Sebastian Anderson
Why does it have to be a competition? Obviously there's plenty of examples of good Japanese animation. Watch Akira, for example. On top of that, Snow White isn't even the best animated Disney film (granted, it's oldest, but Pinocchio had much more refined animation than pretty much anything, and that was only a few years later).
Only the character is.
Angel Diaz
Disney/Pixar current animation is god tier even though it's 3D. They can't do 2D anymore but they don't need it. Even though early pixar stuff looks like garbage now (Toy Story) thing that doesn't happen to such extent with disney's old 2D films, their latest film (It was zootopia, right?) looks so good I believe it won't age that bad. Sadly japanese 3D animators will never be talented enough or have the budget to produce 3D animation of that quality so they have to keep doing 2D. Not Like I'm complaining, I love 2D.
Chase Campbell
>but they don't need it. I need it, I like good 3D animation but I mourn that they closed all their 2D productions every day
Angel Miller
>They can't do 2d The fuck you talking about. Disney has 2 planned 2d animated movies in the work.
>Disney spent majority of its time making Live-Action movies and Documentaries. >Disney real peak with 2d animation was its early days in the 30s and the 90s. It only spit out 2d animated movies once in a while between its start up and Golden Days.
Kayden Moore
Because animation quality has nothing to do with technology broadly speaking. When it comes to 2D animation its all about talent of the artists and to a lesser extent budget.
It's certainly not that Japanese artists "can't" animate like that. There are scenes all the time in anime films that will be animated on the 1s. It's more than animation in anime is all about finding creative ways to cut down on the need for the use of so many frames and still create animation that manages to convey the movement in interesting ways.
If you want to truly appreciate animation you need to stop thinking about it in terms of "frames per second". If you aren't a talented artist it doesn't matter how many frames you are working with your animation is going to look like shit. Likewise if you are a talented artist working on 2s or 3s you can come up with something as good if not better in certain circumstances and for certain movements than even working on 1s. What really matters when you are looking at animation is how the motion is conveyed in the drawings.
The Japanese approach to animation was essentially to cut out superfluous frames wherever possible to make it viable to create 2D TV animations. In order to achieve that techniques have been developed over the years in the Japanese animation industry to convey movement within limited numbers of frames in a convincing way. Some of it is more successful than other stuff depending on the skill of artists or just how much corners are being cut. The Disney approach was completely different aiming to just make the viewer feel as if the things are moving of their own accord and to hide the artists hand everywhere. To create a completely immersive world. Anime on the other hand if anything encourages you to see the hand of the artist and realise you are watching a constructed fiction.
Xavier Garcia
>no shadows >rotoscoping
Joshua Carter
What is Akira?
Jaxon Gomez
it doesn't make sense for a tv series with 24 fps animation unless you got the money, staff, and time memes aside you can do a lot with 15 fps if you put in the effort also the idea that things "have" to be exactly the same as disney is a shitty thing in the animation community
Kevin Rivera
>cheating There's no such thing in art. If the result is good, then it's all right.
Juan Carter
The people that think all rotoscoping is bad are generally the same kind that think all 3DCG animation is bad. They have no real justification for it. They have just seen some shitty examples of it from anime and seen people saying its bad in online anime communities so just parrot the same lines.
Jeremiah James
Rotoscoping is also like 3DCG animation in the respect that in many cases when it is done well a lot of people will never even notice that it was there. So the only examples people tend to see are the ones that look bad.
Eli Nelson
And thinking about it the same can be said for Flash animation which is something of a bogeyman around these parts.
Anthony Wright
Seems like they are just a bunch of cheap bastards and you are rationalizing it as style
Lincoln Edwards
It's not a justification its a basic starting premise. The options are TV anime doesn't exist or limited animation.
Charles Cooper
>constant small movements is great animation
I guess the average kyoani series has god tier animation now.
William Mitchell
>he thinks chopped up garbage is good animation
Wow user you seem a little on the mentally challenged side.
Adam Hernandez
>Sadly japanese 3D animators will never be talented enough or have the budget to produce 3D animation of that quality so they have to keep doing 2D. So wrong. talent is not the issue here it's the approach. Japanese do that thing where they always try to make 3D emulate traditional animation, instead of treating it as a substitute like the west is doing. They don't see 3D animation as its own thing, they mostly see 3D animation as a way to cheapen the production costs of 2D animation. Which is very limiting for the medium.
Liam Foster
They just dont want to let go of anime girls, new things are scary
Carson Cook
Good, since Pixar artstyle (and the whole west 3DCG industry, because they are all the fucking same holy crap) is trash.
Jacob Ross
Because anime is about escapism and self-insert for beta otakus, they don't care if the animation is shitty if their fantasies get fulfilled. See this season: Eromanga.
Adrian Rodriguez
But Eromanga has pretty decent animation for a TV series. Why do you talk about things you don't know anything about user?
Luke Lopez
Especially on the fanservice parts or the parts meant to draw attention to Sagiri being cute.
Dominic Myers
>tfw Japan will NEVER make an animation as good as Alice in Wonderland
Jackson Ortiz
I would hope that Japan continues to experiment with 3DCG blending until they find the style and technique that's a perfect mix of 2D and 3D that'll hopefully stand apart from the western style. For good or bad, 3D is not going anywhere.
>comparing a film with TV show animation user, you could do better than that. i'm disappoint.
Leo James
>The Disney approach was completely different aiming to just make the viewer feel as if the things are moving of their own accord and to hide the artists hand everywhere. To create a completely immersive world. Anime on the other hand if anything encourages you to see the hand of the artist and realise you are watching a constructed fiction. Like pottery.
Anthony Bennett
What are you talking about?
Tyler Roberts
I would like to know this as well.
Kayden Thomas
Good post.
Jayden Richardson
I'm pretty sure he's just bullshitting unless some new developments happened. Last I checked Disney doesn't even have the personnel to make a 2D feature film
Cooper Garcia
They do have at least one 2D TV animation team but I doubt they have the size and support for a feature.
Brayden Roberts
Now that is pure garbage. What could be the anime equivalent for it?
Luis White
Oh that's separate entirely. I meant the actual Walt Disney Animation Studios doesn't really have 2D people anymore, I think they have like a dozen just to make shorts or whatever.
Matthew Taylor
Berserk
John Hall
>the same kind that think all 3DCG animation is bad
Have you seen the new Berserk?
Caleb Walker
because it cost a tons of money
Hudson Peterson
It's bad because the animation is bad. It's not bad because 3DCG animation is bad. You're illustrating the point if anything. Tools being used poorly do not make the tools inherently bad. It just means the people using those tools are shit at using them.
Owen Harris
>She was under contract with Disney, and Disney prevented her from appearing in further film and other media, even for Disney, after Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Jack Benny specifically mentioned that he had asked Disney for permission to use her on his radio show and was told, "I'm sorry, but that voice can't be used anywhere. I don't want to spoil the illusion of Snow White."
Was Walt the first otaku?
Angel Lewis
The Japs aren't very good at character animation, all they can do are flashy effects and action.
Tyler Jones
Something sure was up with ol' Uncle Walt.
Isaac Butler
He was pretty based specially in his later years
Henry King
...
Jonathan Reed
Just like Lewis carrol Who wouldnt want an Alice
Chase Morgan
...
Caleb Baker
>yfw the stories about him getting frozen were true and he did it to await the inevitable waifu age
Ryan Gutierrez
Is 'fluidity' and 'woah nice buttery movement' the only thing about animation that the average layperson cares about?
Jesus, I can see why nobody wants to animate anything well these days.
Mason Garcia
...
Lucas Williams
Yeah, most people just see smooth movement (that's the one I see the most, smooth) and like that. Most do not care about or really understand principles of good animation
Dominic Baker
What else is there come on enlighten me
Cooper Baker
This sadly
I saw an adult swim bump one time where they said that if they were to make one of those old school Looney Tunes 10 min shorts today it would cost over a million dollars for that level of animation
1 million dollars for 10 mins
Lucas Bennett
I've only watched the first two episodes, but KADO has done a pretty good job.
Nathan Davis
No, he would have hated anime like Miyazaki does.
Chase Anderson
Stuff you have in live action films: 'camera' movement, colour use, 'shot' direction.
Jose Price
BLAME! was 3d and despite wonderful animation it still had that 3d lagginess to it
Nathaniel Hall
But thats direction not animation.
Ethan Anderson
Why don't they outsource to Vietnam?
Dominic Evans
You could probably lower that a bit realistically, animators are still treated like trash and underpaid, just less so than in those days.
Ayden Brown
Define animation please.
Also check Rakuen Tsuiho.
John Roberts
...
Jayden Nguyen
>Defending rotoscoping and CGshit Are you studying 3D "art", or are you just a retard? Either way, hi back to Sup Forums.
Jace Hill
A lot of western cartoons do.
I'm pretty sure that's why they look so awful most of the time.
Jonathan Adams
>the technique of photographing successive drawings or positions of puppets or models to create an illusion of movement when the film is shown as a sequence.
Is about the movement. And without being a snob "good animation" in real life always means not choppy and smooth with a lot of frames
Mason Reed
That has nothing to do with animation
Logan Lee
That has nothing to do with being 3D once again and everything to do with the way 3D animation is being used.
No, neither. Just somebody who actually understands and appreciates animation.
Easton Phillips
It's fashionable in Japanese animation to cut frames in the less exciting scenes, and then use the saved money for the awesome fighting or important scenes. It is done deliberately so they can put their best effort and highest possible budget in the cool looking parts.
Isaiah Perry
>appreciates animation I don't appreciate that lifeless crap, not do I appreciate its industry shifting paradigm and utter destruction of an art form. But please, continue to pretend to just genuinely love animation. Remember, "people worked hard on it and it moves a lot!" doesn't make it good.
Carter Richardson
>the technique of photographing successive drawings or positions Checkmate. 3D 'animation' is not animation going with your definition.
Julian Thompson
It doesn't mean that at all. Good animation is about portraying movement in a convincing manner. Adding more frames does nothing to improve that of the fundamentals are shit. The real importance in good animation are an understanding of animation principles, strong posing (key frames) and timing. This is all about the talent of the animators nothing to do with the number of frames. Some movements that are fast in real life can greatly benefit from being animated at a greater frame rate but for movements that aren't particularly fast in real life it's quite possible to create much better animation with fewer frames if you are more talented as an artist.
Brayden King
You are arguing against points and positions I haven't defended or made. Your criticisms all apply to applications of a tool and have nothing to do with the tool itself.
Mason Torres
I dont think anything about animation is like it was in the old days.
Hand drawn animation is a dieing art form, with the flourishment of technology, cgi and digital drawing are just faster and easier now. Plus with the recent rise of tablets i can say the demise of even drawing with a pen and paper at all will become passe sooner rather than later, forget about drawing the same shit repeatedly with slight differences to illustrate movement.
The cost is just going to keep going up because theres fewer and fewer people left who have the skill to actually do it properly ever year that goes by
Sebastian Harris
to be fair nobody today can make a animation as good as Snow white
Luke Morgan
Using a tablet is at its core no different than pen and paper. Pen and paper you just trace the bits that aren't moving where as with a tablet you can copy paste.
Blake Torres
>Snow White cost the equivalent of $26 million US in today's money >The average anime series has a budget of under $2 million and runs 128 minutes longer. I think I may have spotted a flaw in your clever analogy, OP.
Justin King
>It's just a tool for animators! No it's not, it's a completely different (and inferior) skillset, that while good for video games, is garbage in anime. That shit actually killed hand drawn animation, and the tool itself looks like shit in anime. There has never been a good application of it, even shit like the mech fights studio Orange makes.
Evan Gray
You're still doing hand drawn animation, its just on a tablet. If I recall, Yozaqura Quartet was animated entirely on tablets.
Christian Rivera
Not really, YZQ had lots of digital animation though.
Wyatt Adams
YZQ was webgen animators on tablets.
Hudson Powell
>>Hand drawn animation is a dieing art form Pretty much all animation that isn't done with 3DCG is hand drawn, including western 2D cartoons. You still draw with your hands when you use a tablet, it requires the exact same skills as drawing with paper and pen. It's just much, much more convenient for animators. Drawing on a tablet allows you to easily color frames and then duplicate them instantly. You can save animation cels as permanent, reusable assets that can be inserted into any scene whenever you need them with just a few clicks. They don't have to be redrawn if there's a mistake, you can just quickly edit the original, and you don't have to carefully preserve them for later use.
Wanting anime to go back to pen and paper borders on being a Luddite. Imagine if somebody told you electric lights ruined reading because it made it so much easier and cheaper to stay up all night reading books, that things were so much better when you had to have a giant fireplace or a shitload of candles to see well enough to read after dark and nobody reading by lightbulb really "gets" the experience of reading after dark.
Zachary Cruz
Different philosophy for animation.
Some prefer the other.
I personally do like the old disney style. But I don't mind stuff that's more detailed like Fate Zero or KyoAni. There's an audience for both.
Chase Williams
But Snow White is garbage. Polishing a turd with gold dust still doesn't make a turd less than a turd.
William Carter
I want animators that draw scenes. I like the cel paint aesthetic, but as long as they draw things by hand then I'm happy. Drawing everything actually produces a different (and better) result. Current 2D western animation is shit.
Robert Perez
>it is 2017 Fuck off back to the UK, Oliver
David Wilson
Berserk is in a category of its own
Matthew White
>I think I may have spotted a flaw in your clever analogy, OP. It wasn't clever
David Garcia
>Dat CAL arts style background in the beginning >turned to detailed background twards the end Huh, learn something new everyday.
William Reyes
Yeah, which is digital animation.
Jose James
Bambi is the pinnacle of Disney's work. Walt brought in actual deer for the animators to study.
You'd think that, but Toy Story is painfully dated. Granted, thet industry has gotten much better. The Incredibles is still fantastic.
Zachary Jones
You start with shapes and then add detail. It's the basic of every kind of plastic arts. Also thanks for reminding me how much I hate the current CalArts style and how it's everywhere.
Angel Perez
Kyoani ain't got shit on Disney.
Jordan Murphy
You can't read, can you?
Jaxon Sanders
They do it because they're fucking cheap. There's no philosophy behind it, they're just cheap.