I used to think anime just BTFO any western animation. But look at Snow White from 1937.
The animation is very fluid. It is 2017 and japaneses can't animate with more than 15 fps.
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The character movements are so gracious. The facial expression is very well done.
I never saw any anime doing better than this.
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Snow White is literally rotoscoped shit though.
>Development on Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs began in early 1934
>He had to mortgage his house to help finance the film's production, which eventually ran up a total cost of $1,488,422.74, a massive sum for a feature film in 1937
3 years and a fuckton of money. No wonder anime never goes to that lenght to produce such fluid animation.
There will NEVER be animation as good as old Disney EVER AGAIN
How does that make you feel
>such fluid animation
Again, it's literally ROTOSCOPING. It's not even real animation, it's cheating.
Why does it have to be a competition? Obviously there's plenty of examples of good Japanese animation. Watch Akira, for example. On top of that, Snow White isn't even the best animated Disney film (granted, it's oldest, but Pinocchio had much more refined animation than pretty much anything, and that was only a few years later).
Only the character is.
Disney/Pixar current animation is god tier even though it's 3D. They can't do 2D anymore but they don't need it.
Even though early pixar stuff looks like garbage now (Toy Story) thing that doesn't happen to such extent with disney's old 2D films, their latest film (It was zootopia, right?) looks so good I believe it won't age that bad.
Sadly japanese 3D animators will never be talented enough or have the budget to produce 3D animation of that quality so they have to keep doing 2D. Not Like I'm complaining, I love 2D.
>but they don't need it.
I need it, I like good 3D animation but I mourn that they closed all their 2D productions every day
>They can't do 2d
The fuck you talking about. Disney has 2 planned 2d animated movies in the work.
Disney reused its own animations a lot:
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>Disney spent majority of its time making Live-Action movies and Documentaries.
>Disney real peak with 2d animation was its early days in the 30s and the 90s. It only spit out 2d animated movies once in a while between its start up and Golden Days.
Because animation quality has nothing to do with technology broadly speaking. When it comes to 2D animation its all about talent of the artists and to a lesser extent budget.
It's certainly not that Japanese artists "can't" animate like that. There are scenes all the time in anime films that will be animated on the 1s. It's more than animation in anime is all about finding creative ways to cut down on the need for the use of so many frames and still create animation that manages to convey the movement in interesting ways.
If you want to truly appreciate animation you need to stop thinking about it in terms of "frames per second". If you aren't a talented artist it doesn't matter how many frames you are working with your animation is going to look like shit. Likewise if you are a talented artist working on 2s or 3s you can come up with something as good if not better in certain circumstances and for certain movements than even working on 1s. What really matters when you are looking at animation is how the motion is conveyed in the drawings.
The Japanese approach to animation was essentially to cut out superfluous frames wherever possible to make it viable to create 2D TV animations. In order to achieve that techniques have been developed over the years in the Japanese animation industry to convey movement within limited numbers of frames in a convincing way. Some of it is more successful than other stuff depending on the skill of artists or just how much corners are being cut. The Disney approach was completely different aiming to just make the viewer feel as if the things are moving of their own accord and to hide the artists hand everywhere. To create a completely immersive world. Anime on the other hand if anything encourages you to see the hand of the artist and realise you are watching a constructed fiction.
>no shadows
>rotoscoping
What is Akira?
it doesn't make sense for a tv series with 24 fps animation unless you got the money, staff, and time
memes aside you can do a lot with 15 fps if you put in the effort
also the idea that things "have" to be exactly the same as disney is a shitty thing in the animation community
>cheating
There's no such thing in art. If the result is good, then it's all right.
The people that think all rotoscoping is bad are generally the same kind that think all 3DCG animation is bad. They have no real justification for it. They have just seen some shitty examples of it from anime and seen people saying its bad in online anime communities so just parrot the same lines.
Rotoscoping is also like 3DCG animation in the respect that in many cases when it is done well a lot of people will never even notice that it was there. So the only examples people tend to see are the ones that look bad.
And thinking about it the same can be said for Flash animation which is something of a bogeyman around these parts.
Seems like they are just a bunch of cheap bastards and you are rationalizing it as style
It's not a justification its a basic starting premise. The options are TV anime doesn't exist or limited animation.
>constant small movements is great animation
I guess the average kyoani series has god tier animation now.
>he thinks chopped up garbage is good animation
Wow user you seem a little on the mentally challenged side.
>Sadly japanese 3D animators will never be talented enough or have the budget to produce 3D animation of that quality so they have to keep doing 2D.
So wrong. talent is not the issue here it's the approach. Japanese do that thing where they always try to make 3D emulate traditional animation, instead of treating it as a substitute like the west is doing. They don't see 3D animation as its own thing, they mostly see 3D animation as a way to cheapen the production costs of 2D animation. Which is very limiting for the medium.
They just dont want to let go of anime girls, new things are scary
Good, since Pixar artstyle (and the whole west 3DCG industry, because they are all the fucking same holy crap) is trash.
Because anime is about escapism and self-insert for beta otakus, they don't care if the animation is shitty if their fantasies get fulfilled. See this season: Eromanga.
But Eromanga has pretty decent animation for a TV series. Why do you talk about things you don't know anything about user?
Especially on the fanservice parts or the parts meant to draw attention to Sagiri being cute.
>tfw Japan will NEVER make an animation as good as Alice in Wonderland
I would hope that Japan continues to experiment with 3DCG blending until they find the style and technique that's a perfect mix of 2D and 3D that'll hopefully stand apart from the western style. For good or bad, 3D is not going anywhere.
Yeah, gotta love that "superior" western animation
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What the fuck?
Why does this thing exist?
>comparing a film with TV show animation
user, you could do better than that. i'm disappoint.
>The Disney approach was completely different aiming to just make the viewer feel as if the things are moving of their own accord and to hide the artists hand everywhere. To create a completely immersive world. Anime on the other hand if anything encourages you to see the hand of the artist and realise you are watching a constructed fiction.
Like pottery.
What are you talking about?
I would like to know this as well.
Good post.
I'm pretty sure he's just bullshitting unless some new developments happened. Last I checked Disney doesn't even have the personnel to make a 2D feature film
They do have at least one 2D TV animation team but I doubt they have the size and support for a feature.
Now that is pure garbage.
What could be the anime equivalent for it?
Oh that's separate entirely. I meant the actual Walt Disney Animation Studios doesn't really have 2D people anymore, I think they have like a dozen just to make shorts or whatever.
Berserk
>the same kind that think all 3DCG animation is bad
Have you seen the new Berserk?
because it cost a tons of money
It's bad because the animation is bad. It's not bad because 3DCG animation is bad. You're illustrating the point if anything. Tools being used poorly do not make the tools inherently bad. It just means the people using those tools are shit at using them.
>She was under contract with Disney, and Disney prevented her from appearing in further film and other media, even for Disney, after Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. Jack Benny specifically mentioned that he had asked Disney for permission to use her on his radio show and was told, "I'm sorry, but that voice can't be used anywhere. I don't want to spoil the illusion of Snow White."
Was Walt the first otaku?
The Japs aren't very good at character animation, all they can do are flashy effects and action.
Something sure was up with ol' Uncle Walt.
He was pretty based specially in his later years
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Just like Lewis carrol
Who wouldnt want an Alice
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>yfw the stories about him getting frozen were true and he did it to await the inevitable waifu age
Is 'fluidity' and 'woah nice buttery movement' the only thing about animation that the average layperson cares about?
Jesus, I can see why nobody wants to animate anything well these days.
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Yeah, most people just see smooth movement (that's the one I see the most, smooth) and like that. Most do not care about or really understand principles of good animation
What else is there come on enlighten me
This sadly
I saw an adult swim bump one time where they said that if they were to make one of those old school Looney Tunes 10 min shorts today it would cost over a million dollars for that level of animation
1 million dollars for 10 mins
I've only watched the first two episodes, but KADO has done a pretty good job.
No, he would have hated anime like Miyazaki does.
Stuff you have in live action films: 'camera' movement, colour use, 'shot' direction.
BLAME! was 3d and despite wonderful animation it still had that 3d lagginess to it
But thats direction not animation.
Why don't they outsource to Vietnam?
You could probably lower that a bit realistically, animators are still treated like trash and underpaid, just less so than in those days.
Define animation please.
Also check Rakuen Tsuiho.
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>Defending rotoscoping and CGshit
Are you studying 3D "art", or are you just a retard? Either way, hi back to Sup Forums.
A lot of western cartoons do.
I'm pretty sure that's why they look so awful most of the time.
>the technique of photographing successive drawings or positions of puppets or models to create an illusion of movement when the film is shown as a sequence.
Is about the movement. And without being a snob "good animation" in real life always means not choppy and smooth with a lot of frames
That has nothing to do with animation
That has nothing to do with being 3D once again and everything to do with the way 3D animation is being used.
No, neither. Just somebody who actually understands and appreciates animation.
It's fashionable in Japanese animation to cut frames in the less exciting scenes, and then use the saved money for the awesome fighting or important scenes. It is done deliberately so they can put their best effort and highest possible budget in the cool looking parts.
>appreciates animation
I don't appreciate that lifeless crap, not do I appreciate its industry shifting paradigm and utter destruction of an art form. But please, continue to pretend to just genuinely love animation. Remember, "people worked hard on it and it moves a lot!" doesn't make it good.
>the technique of photographing successive drawings or positions
Checkmate. 3D 'animation' is not animation going with your definition.
It doesn't mean that at all. Good animation is about portraying movement in a convincing manner. Adding more frames does nothing to improve that of the fundamentals are shit. The real importance in good animation are an understanding of animation principles, strong posing (key frames) and timing. This is all about the talent of the animators nothing to do with the number of frames. Some movements that are fast in real life can greatly benefit from being animated at a greater frame rate but for movements that aren't particularly fast in real life it's quite possible to create much better animation with fewer frames if you are more talented as an artist.
You are arguing against points and positions I haven't defended or made. Your criticisms all apply to applications of a tool and have nothing to do with the tool itself.
I dont think anything about animation is like it was in the old days.
Hand drawn animation is a dieing art form, with the flourishment of technology, cgi and digital drawing are just faster and easier now. Plus with the recent rise of tablets i can say the demise of even drawing with a pen and paper at all will become passe sooner rather than later, forget about drawing the same shit repeatedly with slight differences to illustrate movement.
The cost is just going to keep going up because theres fewer and fewer people left who have the skill to actually do it properly ever year that goes by
to be fair
nobody today can make a animation as good as Snow white
Using a tablet is at its core no different than pen and paper. Pen and paper you just trace the bits that aren't moving where as with a tablet you can copy paste.
>Snow White cost the equivalent of $26 million US in today's money
>The average anime series has a budget of under $2 million and runs 128 minutes longer.
I think I may have spotted a flaw in your clever analogy, OP.
>It's just a tool for animators!
No it's not, it's a completely different (and inferior) skillset, that while good for video games, is garbage in anime. That shit actually killed hand drawn animation, and the tool itself looks like shit in anime. There has never been a good application of it, even shit like the mech fights studio Orange makes.
You're still doing hand drawn animation, its just on a tablet. If I recall, Yozaqura Quartet was animated entirely on tablets.
Not really, YZQ had lots of digital animation though.
YZQ was webgen animators on tablets.
>>Hand drawn animation is a dieing art form
Pretty much all animation that isn't done with 3DCG is hand drawn, including western 2D cartoons. You still draw with your hands when you use a tablet, it requires the exact same skills as drawing with paper and pen. It's just much, much more convenient for animators. Drawing on a tablet allows you to easily color frames and then duplicate them instantly. You can save animation cels as permanent, reusable assets that can be inserted into any scene whenever you need them with just a few clicks. They don't have to be redrawn if there's a mistake, you can just quickly edit the original, and you don't have to carefully preserve them for later use.
Wanting anime to go back to pen and paper borders on being a Luddite. Imagine if somebody told you electric lights ruined reading because it made it so much easier and cheaper to stay up all night reading books, that things were so much better when you had to have a giant fireplace or a shitload of candles to see well enough to read after dark and nobody reading by lightbulb really "gets" the experience of reading after dark.
Different philosophy for animation.
Some prefer the other.
I personally do like the old disney style.
But I don't mind stuff that's more detailed like Fate Zero or KyoAni. There's an audience for both.
But Snow White is garbage.
Polishing a turd with gold dust still doesn't make a turd less than a turd.
I want animators that draw scenes. I like the cel paint aesthetic, but as long as they draw things by hand then I'm happy. Drawing everything actually produces a different (and better) result. Current 2D western animation is shit.
>it is 2017
Fuck off back to the UK, Oliver
Berserk is in a category of its own
>I think I may have spotted a flaw in your clever analogy, OP.
It wasn't clever
>Dat CAL arts style background in the beginning
>turned to detailed background twards the end
Huh, learn something new everyday.
Yeah, which is digital animation.
Bambi is the pinnacle of Disney's work. Walt brought in actual deer for the animators to study.
You'd think that, but Toy Story is painfully dated. Granted, thet industry has gotten much better. The Incredibles is still fantastic.
You start with shapes and then add detail.
It's the basic of every kind of plastic arts.
Also thanks for reminding me how much I hate the current CalArts style and how it's everywhere.
Kyoani ain't got shit on Disney.
You can't read, can you?
They do it because they're fucking cheap. There's no philosophy behind it, they're just cheap.