Seikaisuru Kado

Was Tsukai right? Should we let God tamper with human evolution?

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saneatsu_Mushanokōji
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Depends on what he does next. That smile at the end doesn't bode well.

I did not expect her to be a human supremacist, though.

I wouldn't say she's a human supremacist. She loves Earth's in general and has deep appreciation for the unique evolutionary tale that happened on it. Even if he means well, following Space God would put an end to that.

*Earth

What's her argument? Humans are special creatures that shouldn't be modified in anyway just because? Gene-modifying technology is already real and humans have decided to use it on plant life to make them more beneficial. How is any part of that natural?

We could be very advanced Menger sponges and fortunately, zaShunina doesn't need to eat.

>this issue will have 36 pages of Kado-related content
I wonder what they'll reveal.

No. Human modifications are done by creatures who understand each other and have a shared history and fundamental concepts. No matter what we do, this baseline is never going to change. zaShunina on the other hand has nothing in common with mankind - he doesn't think, feel, or perceive things the way any creature on Earth does. Any changes directed by him will automatically turn humans into zaShunina Lite in comparison. The question is, are we okay with becoming a copy of Space God?

Humans are already tampering with their own evolution.

Do you really want Humans to be souless caskets who follows to a hivemind ala borg tier?

>zaShunina catches Shindo's shopping bag when he stumbles
Cute.

Everything ZaShunina has given so far could be voluntarily turned away. Humanity has that right to decline a gift, but humanity is a mass of individuals, and people like Tsukai have no right to speak on the behalf of those individuals who would want such gifts, not to mention prevent them from ever taking up such gifts in the future. If ZaShunina could cure illnesses, prevent famine, and stop aging, it's not only imperative, but morally wrong to turn away such gifts.

Make sleeping optional doesn't make humanity "soulless".

>what is overpopulation

>overpopulation
>with infinite resources

Prime Directive? What's that?

If ZaShunina could cure illnesses, prevent famine, and stop aging at the cost of radical physical and psychological changes, would that still be morally imperative?

>Everything ZaShunina has given so far could be voluntarily turned away.
In theory you're right, but that's not how it'd work in practice. Countries and companies without the Wam would be automatically in a huge disadvantage, people with the Sansa upgrade are now much less productive than those with it and so on. The choice here is illusory. Kado actually makes an interesting point that very few religions do: if you have a truly powerful and divine God, it's literally impossible to defy him. His influence is so vast and pervasive that anything alive would be his by default, no matter if you "let him into your heart" or not.

Depends on the physical and psychological changes. You have to ask yourself if ZaShunina would knowingly add changes that harmful in any way to humans.

Without hardships people getting fat and lazy and die out. Kado want's to trial mankind.

Assume nothing's objectively detrimental but the humans with a full suite of gifts neither look nor act like unmodified ones.

>Countries and companies without the Wam would be automatically in a huge disadvantage

Then it would be their fault. If two people are given the equal opportunity to improve their lives, and one seizes it while the other does not, the one who did should not be penalized for doing so because the one who declined feels like they've been cheated, let alone denied a chance in the first place.

The problem here is that Tsukai is assuming humanity will always look the same as it's been in her childhood. Five hundred, a thousand, ten thousand years from now humans and human society will look radically different than the present age. The things ZaShunina's given humanity are the things that humanity's currently trying to achieve. ZaShunina's simply speeding up the process.

If they don't get together by the end of the series then I am quitting anime

And by accelerating it we're no longer talking about a slow process of generational change, we're talking about people who already are being subject to ten thousand years of change.

This heavily depends on what the next gifts are, but if things keep going further at some point ZaShunina will have effectively killed everyone.

am I the only one who really likes her now?

You don't "get together" with God, user. zaShunina already cares more than a 20D sentient superfractal should be able to.

>hastening heat death of the whole Universe

how about no?

I definitely appreciate her more after this episode. She's a conservative done right - someone who opposes drastic change not because she thinks it's evil incarnate, but because she cares for those it'd affect.

What's wrong with change if it's positive? ZaShunina could kill everyone if he wanted to. He's shown himself to be benevolent so far, and the only way to get him to go is really by just telling him to leave. If Tsukai gets him to leave however, she is denying billions of people relief from suffering. According to a utilitarian, that would make her literally worse than Hitler.

ZaShunina is a god, what makes you think he can't reverse anything that's been done?

Oh they'll get together.
Everyone will get together.

The heat death of the universe is trillions years away. It's seriously not our concern.

The simple fact that a sufficient degree of change makes the person being changed not the person they were before? The people you tried to help no longer exist and you've created new people to replace them. It would simply be a more insidious form of genocide.

To be fair, humans have never agreed whether the utilitarian perspective is really "right" or not. Most people generally disagree with it for various reasons.

[MUFFLED WARNING BELLS RINGING IN THE DISTANCE]

It sounded arrogant to me, like the assumption that Earth belongs to humans and that we have some 'rich' history on it

She doesn't just oppose drastic change, she categorically opposes change of any kind if it's from the alien god. She doesn't even entertain the question of why people would want such change. If she were a more open-minded person she would ask for incremental change. Ones like solving food crises or revealing to humanity the cure to illnesses like Alzheimer's, cancer, etc. Instead she wants to give ZaShunina the boot because mankind should determine its own fate or some waffle.

I wish zaShunina would come to our dimension and get rid of our need to sleep.

I'm not sure ZaShunina has done anything to modify people's personalities in any way at all. He simply stated they no longer had to sleep. They could if they wanted to of course.

Technological advancement like the Wam is cool, but biologically changing how humans work enters creepy territory desu

The Sansa is fine because it ultimately doesn't that that much about how people work or see the world, and makes it easier to mass-produce Wam, but if his plans involve modifying people until they're basically just mini-zaShuninas then he should really stop now while things are still fine

That's why I said it heavily depends on what comes next, and why the question was originally a hypothetical. The setup for the fourth gift wasn't exactly heartening in that regard.

This face is a thousand times more unsettling to me than the glowing eyes. It's a blatant and naked display of emotion he really shouldn't be capable of, and I can't see that leading to anything but trouble. Doesn't look right on him. Can't wait for next episode.

This is also miscommunication on the part of Shindo and Tsukai. Neither of them have even given suggestions to ZaShunina about what gifts he should offer humanity. A lack of input results in these drastic offers being made.

This.
The choice is completely illusory here. The moment Space Jesus shown something, it was already too late.

Well well well, an intelligent discussion on Sup Forums nontheless. Color me greatly impressed
She doesn't just oppose drastic change, she categorically opposes change of any kind if it's from the alien god.
I really didnt like this episode, not because of some humans not wanting the "gifts", but for Tsukai been depicted as someone who is so influential to the future of mankind to basically go unchecked by anyone while pushing what seems her OWN fucking agenda.

I would not have any problem with factions or parties assuming the role of those who wonder how good are those changes before implementing them and those who oppose them, What we got is ONE person assuming the role of those opposing the changes, and no fucking one on the side of "hey should not we be asking ourselves of the implications of the changes before apliying them?"

Ok, ok, lets bite and say that her opposing the sansa makes sense, but why in the flying fuck did she opposed and even lectured ZaShunina on the Wam. What the fuck is wrong with free energy? We could do so much with free energy, yes oit would fuck up some economies but in the end its advantages are greater than the disadvantages.

In the end even IF Tsukai is right, I cant help to see her now as a deluded entitled arrogant bitch This level of oversimplification of one of the core arguments in the story really activated my almonds.
I really hope this doesnt end on "It had so much potential, then it throwed it all away" territory

>but for Tsukai been depicted as someone who is so influential to the future of mankind to basically go unchecked by anyone while pushing what seems her OWN fucking agenda.
This could apply to anyone. Both Shindo, Japans PM and SETTEN guys seem to do shit on their own. We have a fucking democracy and nobody fucking asked normal people yet.

>What the fuck is wrong with free energy?
It was said in the show. We don't know what to do if WAM stopped working. Only guarantee we have that it will continue to work is from Space Jesus.

OH I forgot to say something!
So her point its that evolution is better left untouched right? But arent we, the human race already altered evolution by something as basic and essential as selective breeding?
We started by adapting ourselves to the environments, and now have a little power to even adapt environmnets to ourselves, This denies her prime argument.

Fuck! now I'm mad.

The free energy is an anarchist's wet dream and a Hobbesian nightmare, which I think got zero consideration at all.

See . zaShunina is nothing Earth has ever seen before.

Selective breeding amounts to changing what traits lead to reproductive success, and then evolution does the rest itself.

>We have a fucking democracy and nobody fucking asked normal people yet.
Who is "we"? Many countries don't have democracy and in those that do, half of the population is too dumb, apathetic and uneducated to decide anything, let alone the course of humanity's higher-dimensional ascension. See pic related for some of the great "arguments" normal people would give you if asked.

>This could apply to anyone.
Not so fast, they showed us that at least the pawers that be are butthurt mad at Japan for letting the Wam escape off their control. The story could explore the side of other countries Inquiring japan more aggressively about this.

>We don't know what to do if WAM stopped working.
I see what you did there, But thats why we could use some forms of energy alongside with Wam, at least for redundancy, so in the case we are deprived from Wam abruptly we can run the world with some limited capacity. At the same time humanity could and SHOULD investigate more about Wam to know how it really works and how to avoid the access to it to be taken away from us.

>The story could explore the side of other countries Inquiring japan more aggressively about this.
It's too late for that. zaShunina has shown himself to be completely independent and beyond Japan's government's influence. They couldn't have stopped him even if they wanted to.

Ok, we should not ask "normal people". How about the UN, EU, G7, G20 or other groups of nations?

No, with selective breeding we are altering evolution already. Look at domestic dogs, some races are unfit to live without human assistance,
Selective breeding helps some traits to become more prevalent, maybe evolution could got there on itself, butb there is a possibility that it could not get there, because some of the evolutive changes are based on chance and the environmental context of a population.

You're altering the evolutionary path, but only by co-opting evolution itself. Actual recent forays into proper genetic modification are sidestepping evolution.

>Kado
>humanity's first contact with the anisotropic
>Wam
>humanity gets access to effectively infinite energy
>Sansa
>humanity gets some understanding of the anisotropic, making sleep not required anymore
What's the next wave going to be?

Immortality

I don't think you appreciate just how different zaShunina is from any Earth creature. If some magic suddenly turned you into a banana plant, you'd still be 60% human: humans and banana plants share 60% of their DNA. Humans and zaShunina on the other hand share 0% of their DNA, and that's assuming zaShunina even has DNA. Entrusting mankind to him poses two main problems: a) any changes made by him will quite literally make us non-human, and b) we have absolutely no way of knowing where it'd lead. His perspective is simply unimaginable for us.

>What the fuck is wrong with free energy?
You know how many people work in the multiple energy sectors? With the Wam, 90%+ of them probably will get laid off and remain jobless. Countries' economies could collapse in worst case scenario.

On the contrary, I only dislike her more now.
I understand her point of view, but I'll tell that point of view to fuck off any time of the day.

Bye.

If zaShunina's influence ended with free energy, the loss of the energy sector would be a very small downside compared to the sheer amount of possibilities the Wam would open.

It is ok with Wam everyone should have a free food.

The same countries who get screwed by energy sector loss wouldn't necessarily be the same ones to be able to exploit the possibilities of the Wam, nor necessarily in the same degree as their loss.

Did anobody payed attention to the book zaShunina was reading? pic related. The author is a japanese writer and a Humanist.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saneatsu_Mushanokōji
sadly I dindt found any links to that specific book.
So we can argue that ZaShunina is at least interested on philosophical themes that put humanity at their core.
From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism :
Humanism is a philosophical and ethical stance that emphasizes the value and agency of human beings, individually and collectively, and generally prefers critical thinking and evidence (rationalism, empiricism) over acceptance of dogma or superstition
>You know how many people work in the multiple energy sectors? With the Wam, 90%+ of them probably will get laid off and remain jobless.
Yeah, contries that depend on petroleum would be on varying degrees fucked up, but humanity as a whole? Also, until is proved to be bad for the environment, most of the energy sources we have pollute, So if Wam offers a true clean option, then its not so much choice to make, granted that heavy reasearch in Wam are to be done to make sure we are not picking a worse poison with wam.
>people remain jobless
Come on, this is a cheap argument. It will take some years but we are even getting back from the crisis of '08, Humanity came back from WWI and WWII. I think you are underestimating people resilience.
> b) we have absolutely no way of knowing where it'd lead. His perspective is simply unimaginable for us.
And that didnt pose any obstaclke to the adption of many technologies, humanity has made many fuckups but we had many breakthroughs

Tough shit. For humanity as a whole, space travel alone would far outweigh the side effect of Saudi Arabia becoming a poorfag shithole for example.

Yeah, it was mentioned in the last thread. Between Shindo's bookmark and his choice of literature, it's clear he's not indifferent to humanity's fate.

I actually dreamed of this show last night. zaShunina became this creepy pitch-black shadowy figure that kept hovering behind me and chasing me in a strange structure. What does it mean?

“Anka,” Pashka said. “Do you remember the anisotropic highway?”
Anka frowned. “What highway?”
“Anisotropic. The one with the do-not-enter sign. Remember, the three of us went there?”
“I remember. It was Anton who said that it was anisotropic.”
“That was the time Anton went through the sign, and when he came back, he said that he found a blown-up bridge and the skeleton of a fascist chained to a machine gun.”
“I don’t remember that,” said Anka. “So what?”
“I often think about that highway nowadays,” said Pashka. “Like there’s some connection. The highway was anisotropic, like history. You weren’t supposed to go back. But he did go back. And stumbled on a chained skeleton.”
“I don’t understand you. What does the chained skeleton have to do with it?”
“I don’t know,” Pashka admitted. “It just makes sense to me.”
Anka said, “Don’t let him think too much. You should always talk to him about something. Any kind of nonsense. So he’ll argue with you.”
Pashka sighed. “I know that. Except what does he care about my nonsense? He’ll listen, smile, and say, ‘Why don’t you just sit here, Pasha? I’ll go wander.’ And off he goes. And I sit there. At first, I was discreetly following him, like an idiot, but now I just sit and wait. But if you—”
Anka suddenly stood up. Pashka looked around and also stood up. Anka watched, holding her breath, as Anton walked toward them across the clearing—huge, broad, with a pale, untanned face. He hadn’t changed much; he had always been a bit gloomy.
She walked toward him.
“Anka,” he said tenderly. “Anka, my friend …”
He stretched his huge hands toward her. She timidly reached for him and immediately shrank back. On his fingers …
But it wasn’t blood—only strawberry juice.

I'm liking her more now. It's not a matter of whether you agree or disagree with her. Her point is completely valid, and there needs to be a character to defend that position. If you ask me, I don't know what the "right answer" should be. That's probably what the show is about.

>are we okay with becoming a copy of Space God?
Is that really so bad?
I mean, staying as "humans" sounds very nice one but one must still admit that we as a species have done so manny errors that someone correcting them doesn't sound bad.

Kado made me reread Childhood's End. Still the best alien invasion story.

If you're a copy of Space God, in what way are you still "you"?

I'm a transhumanist and I'd say zaShunina's influence is a good thing overall, but her reasoning did give me a pause. Our evolutionary tale is an incredible thing and abandoning it for higher-dimensional Menger sponges shouldn't be taken lightly.

>UN
it seems they are currently busy with the wam
>EU
those guys are mostly watching the situation, the policy of these guys is creating a set of laws and only intervening if someone acts against the system. they like to be passive during changes
>G7
the G7 is mostly made of staates that can have an opinion on their own, are part of the Eu or are the Country were that cube appeared
>G20
The G20 is way to diverse to make unified decissions. Most of their member are probably busy in other organizations and even if not they have mostly opinions so diverse you can just ignore them

Not that user but - the same way you are still you from 10 years ago despite having slightly different personality, memory and having every single atom in your body replaced. Same thing would happen in 100 years - very few things would have remained despite it still being the same "you". Becoming space Jesus 2.0 would involve the same process, except quicker.

More importantly, zaShunina doesn't really believe in countries. We saw how he reacted when the UNSC tried to restrict the Wam; he's okay with differences of opinion, but he clearly wants to leave the choice to each individual.

Wouldn't becoming a copy of God change our DNA structure? At what point does a human being stop being human?

At the same time if someone cuts your head off and uses you to make gunpowder that gunpowder isn't "you", there's a point at which the speed and scope of changes break the continuity of an individual. Becoming a literal extradimensional alien probably qualifies for that.

The problem is that every cell that your body replaces works exactly the same as the previous one - there's no real difference between them. Becoming Space Jesus 2.0 on the other hand would involve introducing elements that work in a completely different way and perform different functions. It's an objective and obvious change down to the very core.

user, you're not even the same person you were yesterday. You're constantly being replaced at the cellular level by another being. That's the point of the Theseus paradox.

The point of the Theseus paradox is that different philosophical viewpoints have different answers to the question, same as any other philosophical conundrum.

I recently read it and personally I found it disappointing, the whole thing felt sort of pointless, especially where it was emphasized that the new hivemind children had nothing at all in common with humanity and really couldn't be considered the same race in any real way.

I found it funny though that there was a little paragraph tucked away where Clark expounded upon how animation was the ultimate art form and some islanders got really deep into it. When reading that scene I couldn't help but think of them as elitist Sup Forumsnons.

> We have a fucking democracy

How adorable.

I still haven't read Childhood's End but Asimov's Foundation and Earth and Watts' Blindsight is great.

no one knows. The point of stop being a "human" is never clearly defined, it depends on the person.
Becoming a copy of a "God" is way more than just new DNA. Space Jesus may not even have that. We aren't even sure what his true form is if he has one and we have no idea where his limits are. We simply have no reference point or scaling system to even categorize him because almost everything about him is unknown.

It means you're being repressed and it's taking a toll on you. Zashunina is probably taking the face of that shadow because, just like him, you put those things you're repressing in the "uncontrolable, alien, powerful and probably evil" category. And that's why you're repressing them.
I don't know what it is you're repressing though. But you might wanna make a conscious effort to let up and explore those. For the sake of your mental health.

I don't see how it's pointless. Humanity managed to reach its Golden Age, learned some incredible things about the universe, and then ascended to the higher plane of existence instead of becoming space cancer. It's pretty uplifting in a way and the Overlords were genuinely interesting.

Was it really humanity who ascended? Or something else?

I'm bipolar and I'm currently feeling quite depressed so that makes sense I guess. Thanks, Freud.

>was it really australopithecus kind who ascended? or something else
It never ends if you think like that. I didn't read that book but I think it's good enough as long as they descend from us.

I don't think anything humans are doing is the work of australopithecus-kind.

This is just another branch in human evolution. The anisotropic is just as real as we are.

What about walking?

Stop turning me on already you fluffy evil alien

No, plenty of animals do that.

No, most animals walk on all fours.

Isn't it the size of our brains? Language, abstract thinking...

Are you going to attribute the ostrich to australopithecus then?

Fine, humanity's descendants then. The book made it clear that mankind would have changed even without the Overlords' intervention, so it's still part of humanity's progress.

The problem was that the hivemind thing really couldn't be called humanity at all since there was nothing left of it in there. Humanity basically died out and instead there was some eldritch being tangentially related that went to join some giant galaxy/universe spanning hive mind while everything humans were or ever would be got destroyed by said psychic hivemined. I mean it felt like there was no practical difference between humanity just dying out with no follow up and what happened in the book.