Tfw a statist says taxation is not theft

>tfw a statist says taxation is not theft

I am a statist and I think taxes are theft. But thats the price we pay to live in a civilized society!!!

If the government didn't tax us, power would slowly shift, and we would have to change governments every 3 to 6 years.

oh.... wait...

The top three richest men in the US own as much wealth as the bottom 50% of society.
We need a lot more taxation directed at the right people.

Go fuckoff and live in a shed in the woods then you cunt

When your government becomes overly dependent on the rich to finance itself, there will be a tendency for the system to keep them rich.
IF we even get there. The rich have a lot of ways to avoid paying high taxes and they make use of them. Anytime they've promised us they'd raise taxes on the rich, it was just bullshit and they knew it.
The real problem is why are they getting so rich in the first space.
Redistributing wealth and income after the fact has never worked in the long run because it's just addressing a symptom. By having so much money in the first place it shows that the rich are too powerful. And (trying) to tax them still gives them too much influence on the government, in many ways.
A lot of rich people would PREFER to pay higher taxes but be certain that their position is protected (which is currently the case). They do not want the underlying issues to be addressed.
Really, you're not getting rid of the rich or confiscating their wealth. It's just not going to happen politically. Leftists are too stupid to make it happen. Too easy to manipulate.
The best you can hope for is that others can also build up their own wealth. Leftists also do not understand that this is not a zero sum game. Or at least that it does not have to be.
Also, by ensuring that the government is manly financed by ordinary people (who have enough income to pay a good chunk of the taxes), the government becomes dependent on their general prosperity.

Yeah but going ancap is not the way. It's the exact opposite of communism which is no government at all.
Also taxing the rich is an awkward issue.
They create jobs, but they can do without the extra money.
We need to not tax the poor so they can get off welfare and force companies to go back to our borders and pay worker's a living wage that's according to what state they live in.

Nice opinions. Where do they come from? Your ass? Whenever anyone says "people should be paid X" you can automatically tell they're retarded and know nothing about economics. You haven't even put up an argument why being the opposite of communism is a bad thing.

It's just some opinions you keyboard warrior.
You lack to provide some counterpoints as well.

I know economics and you should be payed enough to live if you have skill that's useful to that society, but not expecting 15/hr w/benefits working in a Mcdonald's If you haven't noticed our economy is slouching because these businesses would rather hire illegal immigrants or move their companies aboard to avoid taxes.


Ancap is basically Mad Max. Self-governing only works in small groups, when there's a lot of people. Chaos.

>The top three richest men in the US own as much wealth as the bottom 50% of society.
Despite all the taxation upon them. I applaud them for their industry

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It's theft but its a necessary evil, if not abused.

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>tfw a lolbertarian believes society isnt a contract between the dead, the living and those yet-to-born and refuses to fulfill his share in exchange for the comfort and protection this millenia-long process is affording him
gas

Oh yea i remember the other day when Nike took 30% of my money against my will.

You don't actually own anything, therefore it is not theft. You are not free, yet certain freedoms are afforded to you. Ought you be free? Perhaps. Obviously, your government believes so only as long as it doesn't restrain them too much. Are you mad because you believed the modern myth of American freedom? It turns out you are no more or less a subject than any other person in history. The question is does this style of government suit its people?

Shh, that shutters statist delusions! They honestly think that Walmart is worse than the government, despite literally nobody forcing them to shop at Walmart.

No, they employ armies of slaves and lie to you about how shoes give you status.

whomst'd else ancap /masterrace/

>I am a statist and I think taxes are theft. But thats the price we pay to live in a civilized society!!!
Do you also think duty is slavery?
If not, what's the difference?
Or if so, do you also think that's the price we pay to live in a civilized society?

Walmart petitions the government for subsidies. They are not your friend, you simplistic idiot.

oh yes, those slaves that work there because they want to. and those shoes that people buy because they want to. clearly everybody else is wrong except for you, and if you were made central planner of the american soviet, you'd solve all these problems, right?

Oh slavery sucks, if only there was some philosophical system based around volunteerism and natural rights.

cuck

>Do you also think duty is slavery?
Any meaningful sense of a right incurs its corollary duty. A right to life is the same as a duty not to murder.

>walmart is bad because the government gives it special treatment
>clearly this is a problem with walmart, and not the government

States are a social construction you queef

Are you so simple that you think lies are good if we only believe them?
>the government is enslaving us all
>unless you want to be loyal to the government
But I suppose employment != slavery, that was hyperbole.

I don't fundamentally disagree with the idea that taxation is theft. However, in an ideal world under an ideal government, I really wouldn't disagree with said government collecting rent, so to speak. However, Federal conditions are far from ideal.

Flat percentage tax is the fairest tax besides none, and it should be only as much as needed for border security, a military, a court system to enforce contracts, and a minutiae of other functions. There should also be actual restrictions on the potential growth of a government beyond these functions.

Kek, conglomerates have complete control over the government

This sort of selective cognition is your downfall. Both are at fault. Life is not a gov vs corp dichotomy. Collusion is real. If it wasn't, then the only people you can be mad at are enforcers, not the ones giving orders, and not the ones paying them to do it.

How much do you guys pay in taxes?

>on $70,000 USD income I pay 25% income tax (including all the bracket taxes and social security contributions), no property tax in my municipality, 25% sales tax (10-12% on items such as food, transport)

That's pretty much it, aside from all the hidden fees and such. The 70k salary is after a 20% payroll tax.

The government is enslaving its populace because it takes their wealth and controls all their rights via force and regardless of their consent. Walmart cannot do that, and at best must convince each person to buys its goods or work for compensation. There is no reasonable way to think the government is the good guy here.

This.

It stares them right in the face, yet they can not see it.

This style of government is incredibly suboptimal.

t. consequentialist ancap

I don't really see how the government is enslaving you when you can actually sue them for mistreatment and generally fucking over their own citizen's lives. Private courts in ancap land are just gonna be a fucking nightmare.

And they brought you up with them, that's why you aren't starving like the niggers in africa.

>he says in a ancap thread

when the constitution was written it was literally designed for the government to be super restricted and pro freedom, how has that worked out?

How do you stop people from voting your rights into the trash for free shit?
and even if it was ideal, ideal to who, you? Will you force people who disagree to pay? Lock them up against their will for not giving you money for your ideal functions?

and yeah ancap might just be as much of a pipe dream as perfect government, but freedom is much easier to agree on than which rules for what and how many.

Taxation is a voluntary exchange. When you start working you sign this piece of paper which authorizes taxation of your wages.

see

Then change the government. The will always be a government.

You have the illusion that there could ever be no government

LOL ancaps cannot conceive of exploitation, stop. Aggressive force is the ONLY bad in the universe. Everything else are meaningless details. Autism.

Faulty logic. With the W-2 you're effectively forced to pay taxes if you want to work. You have to work to live, so you're forced to pay taxes to live, which is the same thing as being FORCED to pay taxes.

And what paper did I sign that entitles the government to my bitcoin gains?

>sue the US government
>Ok sport, no problem! I hope you have 50 million dollars handy and nothing on your calendar for the next 15 years of your life!
>haha oops it just got tossed out and you're now being audited by the IRS, on a no fly list, and being surveilled by the NSA
AND THE ROCKETS RED GLARE

Regardless it’s something you agree to do, and therefore it’s not theft.

Yea i believe so. Vienna had no government for some time and it became extremely wealthy and was a major player in the renaissance. Its happened and it can happen.

>Both are at fault
No they're not. The private sector by itself cannot collude with each other to hurt the consumer. They tried many times, and it doesn't work. It can only be done by cooperating with government, and using legislation to make a favorable environment to allow monopolies to form. Does the same apply to the public sector? No, they can easily rip everybody off and collude without ever touching a private company.

Good thing I don't live in the US then

lol ancaps

Totally consensual when your options are sign this paper or don't get a job ever

>With the W-2 you're effectively forced to pay taxes if you want to work
How is that different from any other condition to work. Ancaps don't recognize "work or die" as anything but a natural state.
>You have to work to live
>the same thing as being FORCED
This is a logical jump. You don't want to equate necessity with force. Nuance is your friend.

I'm sure it would go over just as well in upside-down land

what's stopping me from finding employment without singing that paper?

That's like saying rape is voluntary because you didn't kill yourself before you got raped. Sure, you voluntarily chose to live, but that's not how voluntarism works logically.

>how has that worked out?
It's not working any more.

>How do you stop people from voting your rights into the trash for free shit?
You can't.

>perfect government,
I'd argue that the Federal government was in a great place throughout most of American history. Interestingly enough, remember that it was Jefferson who made massive land purchases on behalf of America, as well as engaging in one of the first (justified) wars against a foreign entity, with free trade being the justification. Since you're an ancap, how do you rationalize this? Do you think there's anything fundamentally wrong with a President using Federal power to expand our borders, while also using the military to protect American merchants? I think this is ideal, personally.

Demographically, our country is evolving. This evolution is probably going to hurt us in the long run, because more and more people are going to realize how easily they can exploit the resources we have.

How fucking stupid are you. Am I being trolled?
>hey I'll give you 1mil to enact this law
>whoa how is it my fault the law was enacted???
ancap brainlets

How are we not in an ancap system right now?

>sign a contract where they do things against their will

hurrrrrrr you consented to not consent durrrr. Anyone who thinks this is an argument is spastic.

Can...can you read?

the fact that's all you took from the post shows you are the brainlet. Offering money to other people to act in your self interest is something everybody does all the time. Government is rotten because if you act this way, it falls apart. The private sector does not. You are saying that government would totally work if we just changed human nature.

I'm not too concerned with the past, I'm looking forward, and I actually don't think anarchy can exist without the internet

people need the ability to share, communicate, collaborate, expose power and wrong doing on a huge scale, even shit like yelp/online reviews for safety and fraud concerns ect we really need in world without central over site.

>This is a logical jump. You don't want to equate necessity with force

Pragmatically, you have to work to live. But in any case, if you're forced to pay taxes in order to work. You're shielded by force from doing things that you want to do, that's not voluntary.

Did you get this from your crystal ball? How do you know how things would work out in a voluntary society?

I don't have to time to write a whole pamphlet on economics here in this Sup Forums discussion. But apply some creativity, would you please?

The word you're looking for is duress. And you would be wrong. You can work for cash under the table. Why would you obey laws you don't recognize? Are you a coward or something? Is life too hard?

Explain that argument, I found his statement more logical than yours.

what the fuck are you even saying? Im arguing for the ancap position and you just said i would obey laws i dont recognize?

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tfw you see someone larping as an intellectual forcing the ancap meme

Was the Federal government justified during the Barbary Wars? Should a Federal government exert force against another government when the opposing government is attempting to interject themselves into a business deal that doesn't involve them in order to collect taxes on a company?

>You don't actually own anything, therefore it is not theft.
But people do own things, and governments recognise this fact.

Interesting hypothesis, but I'm not sure it works like that. What would the corollary duty of the right to avoid self incrimination be?

If you're right, it's likely that taxation is the corollary duty of some right. But what right would that be?

>it's not duress because you can secretly go against the rules and hope you don't get jailed or shot in return
what the fuck am I even reading. Stuff like this is why I can't take statists seriously.

Not an argument. I didn't need to read beyond your second sentence. You engage in autistic mechanistic thinking. Walmart is at fault for taking advantage of the corrupt system they are in. You can call it survival of the fittest, but they chose to engage. The only morally consistent choice in the trolley thought experiment is not to play. If you don't understand that, then you aren't a real ancap.

>boohohoo, I'm paying too much in taxes
You want a place with no taxes? Go to Somalia.
Fucking whiny americans.

A per fixed tax per person would be even better because it would have to be low enough that even the poorest could afford it.

>what the fuck are you even saying?
I'm saying that in fact you aren't forced to pay income taxes, you silly little upsidedown man. You can work under the table. The argument that "work or die" in any way forces you to pay taxes is a really funny one for an ancap to make.

Or with government, have Somalia move to you.

>How much do you guys pay in taxes?
Depends where in the U.S.
In Florida (one of the lowest taxes in the country) you'd get:

$84,000 income
Then 7.65% in payroll tax
$77,574
Then federal income tax 22% and no income taxes in Florida
$60,507
You can get taxed even less by getting things like solar panels for home, an electric car, donations to non-profit organizations

7% sales taxes (No taxes in non-cooked food)
Property taxes in Florida depend on land values

>Walmart is at fault for taking advantage of the corrupt system they are in.
So is anybody using social security is at fault too, for taking advantage of the taxpayer? Are women at fault because they get more in government handouts then they pay in taxes their entire life? Is almost the entire population of the USA at fault because they adapt to their environment and try to get as much value as possible?

What you are doing is defending an institution by claiming the problem lies with human nature. It's completely backwards and asinine. It's like those people who say "X would totally work if only people learned to work together!". It's meaningless fluff. You can't change human nature, but you can change institutions. You're so you're so dedicated and attached to this institution that you'd defend it over the rest of humanity. Why do you love it so much that you'd damn everything else and misplace your priorities like this? Is it some sort of sick fetish?

Le based leaf.

>What you are doing is defending an institution by claiming the problem lies with human nature.
I'm really sorry you had to strawman me for trying to show you the nuance of anarco-capitalism. I think it would be better if I concede the argument at this point so you will be able to think about what I said. Have a good night, friendo.

AnCaps aren't anarchist.
>Prove me wrong, pro tip; you can't.
t. Anarcho-Syndicalist

I love when people point out that a stateless society would be chaotic because the current geo political climate is an absolute paragon of order and sanity. I'm glad I don't live in a world where a bunch of greedy fat cats plunder and waste the accumulated wealth of the world completely unchecked and without any sort of justice.

Okay. How are the property taxes though? I've those are relatively steep in FL compared to states with state income taxes.

In Norway municipalities can levy property taxes between 2 and 7, I'm fortunate to live in a municipality with no property tax.

The taxes you have to pay in terms of income here is the bracket tax (trinnskatt) which is between 0% and 10% for most normal people. You pay the social security contribution which is 8,2%. You pay the income tax (fellesskatt) which is 23% in 2018, it's been gradually cut from 30% 10 years ago when the socialist party was in power. Taxes are high here, but not the 55% that is the myth.

depends on how you define anarchist. as long as it's voluntary and respects property rights, it's ancap.

Okay Sup Forums doesn't allow that symbol. I meant to say between 2 and 7 per mille. (millage rate)

The corollary duty would be honesty.

Want to be anarchist

>edgy manlet detected

>Lol democuck fooled into beleiving that the state is the righteous collector of a man's debt to society.

>how you define anarchist
I'll let this slide, to be honest I just came from /leftypol/ to shit post. But at the same time AnCaps at least HAVE to read anarchist theory and other somewhat left wing concepts to actually be intrenched in the ideology. Also depending on if the person becomes interested in classical libertarianism. The non-statist rabbit hole is deep. With that said I respect AnCap /poltards for reading.

>You really think someone would do that, just go the internet and LARP?

The average property taxes where I live (Hillsborough County, Florida) is 1.152%

>the right to avoid self incrimination
The duty is not to compel self-incrimination.
>If you're right, it's likely that taxation is the corollary duty of some right.
For the sake of argument, sure. But you have that backwards: the duty would be to pay taxes, and the right would be rulership over you.

I agree with ancaps about the golden rule, you could say. Too many of them haven't fully explored the logical extremes or the roots of their beliefs, though. It's babby's first redpill.