Classic Tsundere vs. Modern Tsundere

As we all know, the Tsundere archetype is a character (usually female) who acts rough but is a softie deep down. However, there are two known variations to it.

The Classic variation is (naturally) the original prototypical version and is quite different from how many know it now. The Classic variation generally switch between tsun and dere depending greatly on the situation but may show a clear progression towards the latter. They also aren't necessarily involved with a love interest and it was popularized by Lum.

The Modern variation is by far the more well-known and widely-used variation of the archetype. Much like the classic variation they may switch between tsun and dere depending on the situation but the object of their affection is one they are openly harsh which hides their true feelings. There are also a bunch of tropes associated with it (such as accident perversion, lolicon, etc.)

Classic Examples:

Lum (Urusei Yatsura)
Misty (Pokemon)
Bulma, Chi-Chi, and Vegeta (Dragon Ball)
Keiko Yukimura (Yu Yu Hakusho)
Nami (One Piece)
Ran Mouri (Detective Conan)

Modern Examples:

Akane Tendo (Ranma 1/2)
Asuka Soryu Langley (Neon Genesis Evangelion)
Taiga (Toradora)
Rin Tohsaka (Fate/Stay night)
Naru Narusegawa (Love Hina)
Louise de La Vallière (The Familiar of Zero)

This is why THK exist.

>Using the wrong chart

Senjougahara is a classic tsundere then

>not being a cunt is a bad thing

I don't like this thread

>i like mary sue characters that are always perfect and kind

>anyone that isn't a cunt is a mary sue
That's a pretty sad way of thinking.

I see
The usual tsundere thread
Never get bored of it

Is casca a tsundere?

Tsundere's are fucking shit. Only plebs with shit taste likes them.

Blame Haruhi Suzumiya for ruining this archetype.

she isn't tsundere

Do we really need this thread up 24/7?

>is anyone who doesn't immediately jump on the MC's cock a tsun?

But he doesn't.

Current Sup Forums definition of "tsundere" is any character which first appearance didn't involved falling in love with the MC and right after he/she did fall in love with the MC.

...

So practically every character is a tsundere by that definition?

Not by the classic definition, no. She is part of the reason why that definition is no longer in use.

That's actually a good point about Erina's development.

Rin is a classic tsundere. Have you ever read or even watched Fate or are you just retarded?

Yes, and?

Mary Sue's are good.

I too think the term has lost a lot of meaning.
Or maybe it was never clearly defined in the first place, and people latched onto the term.
I mean, all it says is you have to be tsun at one point, and dere at another.
I remember Asuka (NGE) being always considered a tsundere, but there's a big difference between, say, characters like
Asuka (NGE), Haruhi and Taiga (Toradora).

She's a complete modern tsundere in F/HA.

>in F/HA.
Which is not canon.

It baffles me seeing Kirino and Taiga in the same category as Kurisu and Tomoyo.

>not canon

I love how people like to use this as something akin to saying "It's not the REAL events that happened" as if it makes a difference in a fictional work.

There is no classic tsundere.
There is no modern tsundere.

There is just tsundere done well (the kind you like) and tsundere done poorly (the kind you don't).
Now fuck off with this pseudo nostalgia nonsense.

Pure dere without Tsun sucks, end yourself

You might've given an example of Carnival Phantasm as well, where all the characters are some parodies of their real selves. Would it also qualify?
Stop this bullshit.

>Would it also qualify?

Sure if OP posted the sources.

Being any sort of dere just makes them a shitty character. If your character is defined by the contrast between being loving and an asshole, thenthey are just a waifu with no depth.

More like people just pigeonhole whatever character they want into easy to distinguish categories.

Nice bait charts.

Thinking about it, this is accurate. Many characters considered tsundere don't even show any of the traits.

They are classics

[x]dere describes a facet of character development in well written characters. The good ones just get referred to and summed up as deres for ease of communication.

And?

>Being any sort of dere just makes them a shitty character.
?

>If your character is defined by the contrast between being loving and an asshole
You're just describing a tsundere. I won't even say you're describing a kuudere because really, that's not even close. Hell, even for a tsundere that's a terrible description.
Why did you even open your mouth?
You don't know a thing, Anonymous. You don't know a thing about anything.

What about Yukinoshita from oregairu

This implies good development for a women means them becoming docile for lame Japanese men.

In a way, yes.

In the second sentence I was specifically talking about tsundere even tho I didn't make it clear. I just think that defining characters as dere archetypes is pretty shit. Its become a cancer on anime where every show has a tsundere character than is exactly the same. Not that characters were particularly better before this, but it still bothers me.

>Its become a cancer on anime where every show has a tsundere character than is exactly the same

Character archetypes are a thing that existed way before the term tsundere was a thing.

I didn't mean to imply that. I just meant that well written characters (if they fall under the umbrella at all) are only partially described by [x]dere. Shitty ones that are basically the bare minimum for an archetype and nothing else can be totally and accurately summed up by the terms.

Both are good and have different appeals. inb4 THK.

Maybe I should just stop watching anime. I just hate female characters that exist as male wish fulfillment, which is what dere types are. I could care less about feminism, but it makes me feel like a faggot.

>not knowing that hacks who can't write their own characters only strictly adhere to popular archetypes because that's all they can do
>not knowing this shit is literally in all forms of media
>thinking any form of entertainment isn't just "wish fulfilment"
>I could care less

You are a faggot anyway, faggot-kun.

I know this, but is it wrong to want all anime to cater to my tastes. Fuck everyone else, uchozen kazoku was the only good anime this season.

Shit taste.

>DEEP and pretentiousfag

I also like sonic x

Based on the chart:
Modern > Classic > Neo

Neo Tsundere looks very very boring if they grow super loving and affectionate that quickly

Julis was the best tsundere in recent memory. Shame she was stuck with a shitty guy.

She's a shit.

You know what I like? Tsundere variation where the girl starts off very flirty and playful towards MC, trying to portray herself as sexually active and dominant. As their relationship grows, she begins to cease her act - not being able to respond to MC's returned advances, suddenly developing a sense of shame once absent, revealing that her past behavior is mostly a facade. In the final phase, she opens back to intimacy, and returns to her former attitude, except now geniune and prepared for reciprocation.

It's technically not tsundere, but it functions exactly like one.

This is just spam bait

then why not give it a simple definition?

something like bad tempered but caring

There's a more appropriate term for characters like Stella. She's not even categorized as a tsundere in Japanese circles. The correct term is choroin ちょろイン and refers to characters that are extremely easy to conquer and remain dere for the rest of the series.

>Lum (Urusei Yatsura)


Lum isn't a tsundere if anithing Ataru would be.

>a whole bunch of shit tsundere with a few good ones

>a portmanteau of CHOROI and heroine
kek, that's actually really funny.

Well, it's a difficult issue, you can't really force others to go with your definition.
But coming up with a meaningful definition would certainly be a start.
I think specifying context could also be helpful.
Like, I don't think Ash and Misty have a romantic relationship, yet OP called Misty a tsundere.
I guess she acts like a tsundere, but I really can't see her as one. I have no idea, why that is, tho.

bait: the image

>Neo tsun

Stella isn't even a tsundere in the first place.

>classic tsundere
>posts a character from 2007

This chart is absolutely disgusting I give you 8 out of 15 points and a picture of a bird.

People only think Stella is a tsundere because of how common the archetype is. The reason why she was so harsh on Ikki is because he was literally a stranger who walked in on her while she was changing clothes, but there was no real reason for her to forever keep being a bitch just because tropes demand she do.

>Well, it's a difficult issue, you can't really force others to go with your definition.

my point wasn't to force it, if any good definition can be found it would catch on.

context is a bit hard because as you say someone can be tsundere bit not in a relationship

perhaps platonic and romantic? Or is it more of a personality archetype than a romantic trope?

But we still have "classic" tsunderes today.

Technically Chitoge counts as a Classic Tsundere right?

Yeah.

But there was absolutely nothing (0) wrong with Stella.

>hentai body
>redhead
>doesn't beat the MC anymore after getting to know him
>but still some tsundere moments here and there
>lowkey horny with the MC around
>hard worker
>loyal
>gets married to the MC

Classic tsunderes = tsunderes I like

Modern tsunderes = tsunderes I hate

I still don't get why even some tsunderefags don't like her. She's very much an example of a classic tsundere.

>Asuka Soryu Langley
Is this bait?

Stella isn't even a tsundere. Anyone who think that Neo Tsunderes exist has their brains bleached.

...

Those are the names for it, time doesn't matter really. You can have a classic tsundere in a modern anime or a modern tsundere in a classic anime.

The names aren't really stellar but that's what they are.

>implying not pinnacle like Erina
No.

The problem with the tsundere trope and with anime tropes in general is that it should be a descriptor tagged by the audience, not the author. The author is supposed to write a character with personal motivations and a development that makes sense within the context of the story, and if the audience describes it as a tsundere then that's their thing. When an author becomes aware of a trend by a secondary source like the readers then that leads to shitty writing. They will think "I will write a tsundere now", but they won't make all the considerations the original author made when he wrote his character without being aware of the trope, doing it simply because they were writing a character that fit their story.

Tsundere is stupid and you're stupid for liking it.
The only reason tsundere exists is so romances and harems have some reason to have more chapters than a series naturally should, all while avoiding what couples actually do because the Japanese are so limp dicked nowadays even being shoulder to shoulder with the opposite sex is considered risque.
>Oh but we don't want to see couples act like couples, that's boring.
Yeah if you're a jaded asshole who doesn't think the MC getting that teddy bear from the rigged carny game, or them sitting in the ferris wheel looking at their city, or even just the two of them having a picnic under a tree isn't adorable and heartwarming as well as good character moments.
Tsundere as an idea is antiquated, it's the poor man's way to keep a series and a conflict that shouldn't exist going and should be removed or toned down to where 'YOU BAKA' followed by a punch isn't half the god damn series.
But of course Sup Forums is just going to call me an idiot, want the same thing every season, then ask 'why is anime so shit' when it's all the same stuff over and over again.

kaguya doesn't become dere over time, she literally becomes DUMB over time

I always think that the quality of a tsundere is directly proportionate to tge mc and their dynamic.
The generic beta male mc is really not well.suited for the tsundere, because in most of their interaction she just comes across as a total bitch.

Like if the mc was a tsundere himself they would just mutually shit on eachother which creates fun bantz like in pokemon specials ruby/sapphire or steins gate's kurisu and okabe or so I have heard.

What also is a fun dynamic is if the mc is a total piece of shit scumbag who deserves all the shit he gets from the tsundere, but is still a pretty good guy underneath all the scumbaggery so the tsundere still has a reason to like him like san-chan and Riko from kyou kara ore wa.

Another dynanic that I like is when the guy can handle the tsundere's bullshit like Kazuma from kaze no stigma who constantly btfo the tsundere.

Tl;dr
Generic beta male MCs don't work very well with tsundere, it can work nut 9/10 it just doesn't

Classic Takahashi Couple, I love this trope so much. Also referred to as Belligerent Sexual Tension, when it's done right it's my favourite couple dynamic.

Tsunderes are for alphas

Male Tsundere are the best.

>Modern Examples:
>Rin Tohsaka (Fate/Stay night)
What? She is a classic example for sure.

>Classic Examples
>Ran Mouri (Detective Conan)
Nah, she's neo as fuck
Tsun in the first chapter but as soon as Shinichi disappeared she became a clingy shit

I believe she would be much more liked if she wasn't stuck in a series that makes her character, growth and romance overshadowed by pointless harem and cheap drama.

I really liked san-chan and Riko's dynamic it was bery fun.

I'd do this if I had a bit more confidence. Unfortunately, social anxiety is kind of difficult to get rid of. Maybe I'll have a completely different image for university than my beta self in high school.

That'd be good yeah. Though one thing I'm glad for is that the series isn't written by Seo Kouji.

>Didnt know there are best tsundere in 2017

Die

Is she a Modern Tsundere?

Nope. She's a classic tsundere.

fixed

It's satisfying seeing a character gradually progress beyond another's hard shell and slowly succeed at getting a total grouch to sort of warm up to them though. I couldn't give less of a shit in shitty SoL anime, but in series where there's an actual overall point to the show it's nice seeing that progression.