Why?

Why must we shaft the poor at every turn?

>Implying if you are poor you work min. wage.
So are they poor because they work minimum wage, or stupid?

really it's the third one that bothers me the most...

...

>same people who complain about minimum wage ares same people who support illegals coming into country who then get hired under the table thereby destroying the benefits of raising the minimum wage
really gets the noggin joggin

>MINIMUM

Minimum wage is a symptom of a problem. There's no such thing as minimum wage.

Think about it. Everyone in the country get as extra $5 an hour. All that happens is products go up to match it.

It's not a solution and has never worked. The cause and effect is well documented.

Lower corporate tax rates, making it easier for small business to be profitable etc.. that's the only way to bring up the quality of life. Which is just 'what stuff people can afford in comparison to others'

Minimum wage is a retarded way to manage that. A very emotional and leftists way.

They are starter jobs, not careers. If you have a family, and can only get a minimum wage job, YOU are the failure, not the "system. "

So you are telling me fast food workers are twice as productive now as they were 40 years ago? Lmao

Delusional libs, you want that higher pay you get that higher paying job.

I'm not really making a comment about minimum wage one way or the other desu.

My question is more 'Why haven't wages kept up with productivity?' If productivity has been growing, how come wages are stagnant?

pic related

wanna solve the problem? dont work at fucking mcdonalds you loser.

they might be, I don't actually know...

how are you going to have minimum wage laws without fucking over the portion of the population whose skills are not worth the minimum wage?

being unemployed while minimum wage is $5.00 an hour is objectively inferior to being employed and earning $2.00 an hour.

>Think about it. Everyone in the country get as extra $5 an hour. All that happens is products go up to match it.
Most people don't make min wage.
Everyone doesn't get 5$ an hour, the people that spend (almost) 100% of their wages do.
Demand side economics.

Because you support open borders and welfare for niggers.

The minimum wage in 1960 was $1.25. The melt value of 5 silver quarters from 1960 using today's metal prices would be about $15.75. We don't need to fix our wages, we need to fix our money.

this is definitely true, and this is why everytime the minimum wage gets raised it hurts the chances of highschool students getting a first job...

But it still doesn't answer the more basic question of why are wages stagnant if productivity is rising?

Why not enforce two maximum wages, one per capita and the other of say $30 million net profits for businesses with heavy taxes for both earning above it?

>limiting dollar supply increases value
>price of goods goes down to avoid hitting the cap
>job creation and hiring skyrockets so corporations avoid hitting the profit cap
>California and New York btfo
>beaners btfo
>jews btfo

nice idea there friend

Increases in productivity cant be due to automation.
Automation leads to fewer low skilled jobs.
This, coupled with massive immigration, means that fewer low skilled jobs are competed for by more and more people.
This competition drives the value of labor down.

If these lefty fucks gave a shit about wages they would be advocating for deportations and closed borders.

It should be zero.

Fuck all government interference.

Who said productivity was rising? Do you think the baggers at your grocery store are leaps and bounds ahead of their parents in terms of shelf stocking ability? Or the ability to scan items quickly and accurately enter in codes?

Thomas Sowell said it right. The real minimum wage is always 0.

ya this is also true.

It's funny, cause every time I show this to someone they are shocked.

You can do the same with an ounce of gold. What could you purchase in 1965 with an ounce of gold, well it turns out you can purchase nearly the same thing in 2018. If you restrict your comparison to just services (like say a haircut) then there is litteraly no deviation in prices.

because they keep importing low wage workers who would work for far less than the minimum wage.

this is such fundamental economics, it's hard to imagine libtards not understanding it. surplus of cheap labor = low wages. deficit of any labor = higher wages.

libtards getting conned by neo-cohen RINOS is so embarrassing.

Because labor has been devalued, stupid. The market has determined that 40 hours a week of basic menial labor is worth less than the cost of an average apartment, food, and other basic living costs.

Get a better job, or move somewhere where the cost of living is dirt cheap.

that productivity is rising isn't really in dispute, just about everybody agrees on that. It might be different for different positions, but on average productivity has increased tremendously yet wages have remained more or less flat

Because finance was deregulated and capital was allowed to go oversea in the 80s. Before that you couldn't really go open a factory in China with American capital.

This happened when we went off of the gold standard.

Has worker productivity increased (the actual value of their work) or has the user interface, so to speak, been streamlined to a point where even a braindead retard can memorize some produce codes and work a cash register scanner. Why should that person be federally mandated a wage of more than $10 an hour when the value of their work has likely remained stagnant or inline with their predecessors?

if people are willing to work for 7.25 an hour, that means that goods and services must be inexpensive enough for them to afford enough to survive, which is an amazing economic accomplishment. It means that our companies are able to make a profit even when they're selling goods for peanuts.

why are you doing a minimum wage job as a career?fuck off.

The minimum wage is too high already. Increasing the minimum wage would be a racist move to keep refugees from finding work in America.

>You should have a lower quality of life because of muh market forces.

Ancap fags need to be banned.

as I said, that productivity has risen isn't really in dispute, today's workers are much more productive then their counterparts 50 years ago...their pay just hasn't stayed in line with that...

pic related

Bretton woods wasn't a gold standard and was never really workable.
It worked as long as the US remained the only country in the world with a functional economy.

>0 sources
oh boy i believe that

>people with perfectly legitimate points should be banned

>we

Nobody stopping you from giving all your employees a raise tomorrow. What's holding you back?

>every single job on the planet is worth AT LEAST [x]

Imagine if we had a "minimum price" for all products. $5 MINIMUM PRICE! EVERYTHING MUST COST AT LEAST $5 BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS WORTH AT LEAST $5!

That would be retarded though huh because there are actually some things that are worth less than $5. Oh well

>import illegal immigrants knowing they don't have to get paid min wage
>demand min wage is increased

muh freedoms ebil socalistm yuropoor

I don't think you're following me. The actual value and productivity of a given worker in a shit paying job is likely the same as it was 50 years ago. The interface they use today is what allows the gains in productivity that you can plot on a chart.

Just because technology now allows a walmart cashier to hustle 100 people through his terminal in 15 minutes doesn't mean that the value of their work should scale the same. Their skill is no different than a walmart cashier 50 years ago, it's the interface that changed. WHY should that mandate a federal minumum wage?

Have fun losing jobs and work hours like Ontario is suffering after it was raised from $10 something to $14.

Interesting, It's almost as if a bunch of labor kept being imported into America to prevent wage growth while increasing productivity

I make above minimum wage, because I actually work a job that requires some degree of knowledge and skill. Minimum wage is designed for high schoolers looking for a job to get experience and start a finance portfolio of some sort, even if it’s just a savings account. If you expect and plan to live off of it, it’s because you’re retarded and probably don’t have the capacity to earn, and thus don’t deserve, above minimum wage.

this isn't really hard math btw, you can figure this out on your own, you don't need fucking sources


jfc mathematically illiterate people...

>today's workers are much more productive

Businesses are more productive. Just because automation lets a business produce more with less employees doesn't mean the employees are doing more work. Likely the opposite is true.

Though tell us about what you do for work and how much you pay your employees.

productivity of the worker is based on the equipment they're using, equipment the worker doesn't pay for and which costs more than their salary to maintain, repair, and operate. Anyone with half a brain can get a job in a car manufactory running a hydraulic press worth 500k for minimum wage

What do you do for work? How much do you pay your employees?

>tfw you work to make upside down pyramid

shut up faggot

This. It's pretty disgusting how these neo leftist anti white traitorous filth have become the willing lackeys of the ultra rich by importing and enabling the illegal non white invaders so they can get paid $5 an hour or less for doing work that Americans can do. It becomes even more incomprehensible when you factor in their penchant for taxing the rich and giving to the poor. What ends up happening is the rich assholes who employ the illegal vermin avoid paying even more taxes while the leftists work towards giving the illegals gibs which are paid for by the overworked and underpaid majority of real Americans. They are the most idiotic of useful idiots.

Short answer: anti-protectionist trade deals that favor foreigners over our own people.
Your wages have been shipped over seas, minus a handsome commission taken out of them and paid to the (((brokers))) who facilitated this highway robbery.

Quit relying and feeding the system and just be self sufficient with out the need of the system. If food and money is a problem for you then grow your own food on your lawn or balcony.

My family thrived in communist Poland while everyone else was starving in the cities. You know why, Because they grew and sold thier own food on their little farm. Which was only hector of land BTW.

>The actual value and productivity of a given worker in a shit paying job is likely the same as it was 50 years ago.

no it's way higher, the amount of value per hour that the worker produces for the company he works has only gone up. That's what we mean when we say that the worker's 'productivity' has gone up. 'Productivity' is litterally the amount of money he generates for a company over a given period of time.

You know why poor people are poor? Because they do dumb shit like buy cigarettes and smoke them by the pack. Or max out their credit cards. Or go out 10 times a week. Or have kids when they have a shit job/housing. Or buy frivolous things like clothes or shoes or weed or heroin.

Don't' want to be poor? Follow these steps:
>Don't eat out
>Don't smoke
>Don't do drugs
>Only drink upon occasion
>NEVER drink and drive
>Don't have kids until you have a good/stable thing going
>Don't do it raw until you got a good/stable thing going
>Support policies that will actually make you richer (like deporting illegals, which WILL raise wages from lack of demand), none of this forced $15 an hour shit.
>Only get solid college degrees
>Better yet, don't go to college at all.
>Make good investments.

Even with the lowest-paying jobs possible, you can still have a comfortable life in America by following these rules.

Dems didn't have the chance?
Funny enough, states are increasing wages, they like states' rights now

The market determined it would, what do think would happen if was raised artificially?

Again, you're not following me. Try to separate the worker from the interface and then give some thought to the actual productivity of a given peon.

What skills do modern walmart cashiers have over their counterparts 50 years ago that warrant a pay wage increase of $10? Have cashiers upped their game or has the interface they used improved to allow for a higher pace?

Would a walmart cashier of today produce the same level of revenue for the company if he had to use a pen and paper to come up with a bill of sale for the transaction?

I work for myself, and I negotiate my contract directly with my customers (most of the time at least!) so none of this applies to me, I don't make anywhere near minimum wage.

manwhore?

it feels like it sometimes!

more likely IT/hardware repair specialist or has a skilled trade like electrician or plumbing.

Almost nobody who says they are a self employed contractor and successfully make significantly above min.wage does anything else.

I instinctively avoid yellow text on black background macros now.

Why 1968? The federal minimum wage was started in 1938. Why pick a specific year three decades later as the comparison point?

you can't really do that!

His or her productivity has increased precisely because he or she knows how to use those machines. That's why their productivity has increased.

Think about it in terms of Auto factory worker. An auto factory worker in 1930s produced less cars per hour than an auto worker in 1980s. This is because in 1930s the Auto worker was basically unskilled labor. In 1980 he has know how to work those machines and it's a skilled trade. A workers productivity is a function of what he can do with specific imputs over a period of time.

>why is it still $7.25/hr
because there are a lot of stupid fucks that aren't worth $8/hr

Sup Forums forever ignorant of basic economics...

Yup, the Bureau of Labor and Statistics is lying...

bunch of fucking potatoes you are...

So what do you do for work? How much value do you produce per hour? What do you pay your employees and how much value do they produce?

Why do you Marxists always ignore these questions?

Why is 1968 the benchmark with which to measure against?

It's because the retards you're quoting decided to shift all the production over to asia in the name of "environmental protection", "cheap labour" and lower energy costs.

Those people that are today stuck in min wage jobs would be the coal miners, steel mill workers or entry level chemical plant workers 30 years ago.

They are stupid as fuck or went for a feminist dance therapy degree but if they worked hard they could earn a hourly wage that on todays standards would be $30-50/h.

Today we import the same shit from china that was deemed to dirty to produce in the US/EU. While we could produce them pretty much clean at a lower price price tag as those chinks using 1910 tech, child labour and a fucking freighter to bring them over the ocean.

FUCK YOU DEMORATS AND GREEN NIGGERS !
You betrayed the working class and the entire middle class is dying because of you!

>ignorant of basic economics

Look at me. I'm doing more work than 10,000 field niggers picking cotton by programming a route into an ipad.

You are unemployed and unemployable. Had you ever participated in the workforce you would not be making such stupid statements here.

like i said above, I work for myself, I don't have any employees. I negotiate my contract directly with my customers, if I don't like what they are offering i don't do it.

I also just sort of fell into it so to speak, I didn't have to do any formal training, it was a hobby that I mannaged to turn into a living...most people aren't as lucky as me...

>if I don't like what they are offering i don't do it.

And how does this not apply to employers negotiating wages with employees?

>it was a hobby that I mannaged to turn into a living

Backpage.com cocksucker confirmed.

you're the fucktards that are saying productivity hasn't gone up.

Good job, you're arguing against libraries full of economics texts and peer reviewed papers, super!

I challenge you to find me an Economist that says 'worker productivity' hasn't increased in the last 50 years. Pro tip: you can't.

And, it's like this every fucking time on pol, some basic fact that everybody knows you get a bunch of idiots like yourself who are like 'NOOOOOO! IT'S NOT THAT WAY CAUSE I SAY IT ISN'T!!!!'

I dare you, google 'worker productivity over time' in an image search and if you find one graph that doesn't look like pic related I will eat my hat.

You should be ashamed of yourself for being this stupid

Minimum wage was never supposed to be a liveable wage. Minimum wage jobs were meant for teenagers, and when they got older, they go get a real job. Now we have dope fiends and single moms in their 40s who can't get their shit together working at Pets Mart. Minimum wage didn't fail you, you failed yourself.

The reason everyone uses Hourly Compensation vs Productivity is so idiots like you will react emotionally. If you look at a chart of Total Compensation (includes things like healthcare and retirement plans) vs Productivity you'll see that they match almost perfectly

>Worker productivity has gone up meme

I call bullshit. Factory production of yesterday is not type of production as it is today. Factory workers are approaching glorified button pushers. For example, building furniture required milling, measuring, cutting, and hammering. Now it’s made with machines in preformed molds from scrap wood. Made at 100’s per hour. Then it’s shipped to you where you the consumer build the furniture.

A factory worker pulls a handle to make it happen. Wow so productive!

>I challenge you to find me an Economist

Name 3 that aren't communist kikes like you.

Play your pilpul games all you like but the fact is the guy who programs the route for that harvester into his ipad isn't doing the same amount of work as a thousand field hands. The farm (business) is more productive but the actual worker is doing less work than even one field nigger.

I'm not sure who you think is entitled to more money than they currently earn or who you feel is supposed to pay the difference, but you're welcome to cob together with all your Marxist friends and buy a controlling interest in an existing corporation or start your own and pay people whatever you think is "fair".

It's the advent of IT in the '70s

I bet a white guy invented that

> immigration act of 1965
> redefined role of fund managers being reclassified as active investors and being allowed to vote their shares ~1965 US/UK, which led to corporate raiders, which was largely pension fund managers...

> in many cases, pension funds raided the companies of the employees with the explicit goal of increasing returns for vested employees (the only ones fund managers have any fiduciary duty too) by reducing the number of employees that would there after ever vest.

>being this fucking stupid

calculating how much value a worker creates per hour has nothing to do with politics, it's pure mathematics. In economics we don't measure how productive 'businesses' are we measure how productive workers are. We can talk about how 'profitable' a business is...but not how productive it is, that's a property of workers. Saying a business is 'productive' is literally meaningless.

It's always the same on pol, whenever something involves technical aspects or mathematics you fall back on politics, cause that's all you got.

>Import millions of immigrants who happily accept the worst jobs at a low pay because they'd rather live here than anywhere else
>Automation and computer development increased production at a rapid rate even easier than before
>WTF WHY IS COMPENSATION LOW AND PRODUCTION HIGH? FAT CATS CRONYISM CAPITALISM!!!!!

You're not gonna believe this, but sometimes there are people who aren't able to find any decent jobs out there aside from McDonald's and are forced to rely on it until they find something better.

What if someone is 40 but has an 80 IQ and is a mother or father. What then?

WHY NOT MAKE THE MINIMUM WAGE $100/HOUR THAT WAY EVERYONE CAN BE RICH?!

because you don't live in a free market country which has decent border control anymore.

Minimum wage is not meant to support a living, it's for cutting your teeth in the working world. Be good at your job and get promoted. Having a shitty job is not a reason to suck at it, it's a reason to excel at it.

>how much value a worker creates per hour

>how productive workers are

Pilpul. You can play word games all you want and it doesn't change the facts.

If I have 10 workers and replace 9 of them with robots does that mean the remaining worker is 10X as productive?

>It's always the same on pol

Indeed. Some communist Jew playing pilpul games.

If the prevalence of cuckoldry was still at 1959 levels, we'd have 98% less cucks.

Do you think maybe there's a correlation between being a cuck and requiring government to negotiate a higher wage on your behalf?

Grow a pair. If you're worth more, demand it; if you're not, get yourself there.

Why 1968? That is just a random year, if you actually look at what the minimum wage has been adjusted for inflation it is about average right now. That year it was particularly high so they chose that year.

>If I have 10 workers and replace 9 of them with robots does that mean the remaining worker is 10X as productive?

yes, he may in fact be a 100 times or 1000 times more productive than he was before, depending on what those robots do...because:

PRODUCTIVTY IS A MEASURE OF VALUE CREATED OVER TIME.

You're arguing against a definition, which is stupid and betrays a lack of any understanding.

lol

Woman and immigrants became a larger part of the unskilled market.

mass immigration suppresses wages and is supported by both parties

You cannot compare the productivity of a nation to evaluate, which encompass completely different industries to the productivity on individual.

Productivity that isn't created by him. Its created by the robots. If a tool or machine allows someone do to 100x the work it doesn't imply the person operating it nor his coworkers should get 100x the pay. They aren't exerting any extra effort. They aren't doing any more advanced thinking with their minds, unless of course its the engineers who maintains the machines but they do get paid more generally.