What went wrong?

What went wrong?

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Everything.

Not getting Toriyama involved.

Still better than Super

there's always that one guy.

Uub, Goten, Trunks, and Bra weren't the main characters.

GT was akin to original Dragon Ball with it being this fantastic space voyage... then they jump the shark by saying some no name character was stronger than kid magin buu, to have them die randomly and then have a clone of Cell pop out its gob and start eating people.

Then it ruined 17's character and went further by making Goku a shenron guardion deity... thing.

Whole shows a mess.

DB Super has come out too late and attracts fans of shows like Bleach and Naruto I.E. your shitty Shounen punchy crap that's drivel.

>Goku being a kid again
>Pan and Trunks being the secondary main characters instead of Gohan, Vegeta or Goten, even fucking Krillin going with him
>Gogeta being Vegito
>Super 17 instead of Cell returning
>SSJ4 turning Goku magically into an adult but reverts to a kid when leaves form
>Goku leaves on Shenron and absorbs DBs???
>Gotenks teasing
>Piccolo dies in like the first 10 episodes for no reason
>everything

This

>Piccolo dies and only Gohan cares
>Piccolo then chooses to live in hell to help Goku coz plot demands he is useful.

honestly this desu

Back star saga.

Pan and Trunks were a good character choice tho.
Gohan had been ruined in the Buu-arc and is a complete faggot now.
Vegeta never developed past being an edgy teenager.
His character only works with the group dynamics / cast and tone of DBZ.
Goten always was just a boring version of Gohan, his character worked well in the Buu-arc tho.
Most of the other characters had retired at this point (Krillin, Yamcha, etc.), Pan and Trunks were the only characters who were still striving to get stronger.
I'm absolutely convinced that taking any other characters as the main cast for GT would have made the series even worse.

Honestly yes. And even if both are crap, at least GT has the excuse of not being made by this cancer Toriyama.
Super is so depressing to witness because it's Toriyama willingly shitting on his own crap.

Dunno man I enjoyed GT

Dragon Ball continuing as much as it did. You can only make the same shit so many times before it gets stale. Super is committing the exact same mistake. It's only apologists who defend Super by comparing it to GT. At least GT had Goku end as a hero instead of the genocidal retard he is in Super.

It's my understanding that Toriyama always intended for Goku to be an anti-hero and that he didn't like the way he was portrayed in the anime.

You don't understand Goku at all.

>Pan and Trunks were a good character choice tho.

How so? Trunks and Goten would have been better if you wanted Trunks or Pan and Bulla/Uub/Goten would have been better if you wanted Pan. Besides Pan being a shitty character in GT

>Gohan had been ruined in the Buu-arc and is a complete faggot now.

Could be fixed

>Vegeta never developed past being an edgy teenager.

Stopped reading there. There isn't a single thing right about this statement

Honestly, I never understood this. It may be because I've never seen original DB anime (only read this part in the manga), but Goku had some clearly heroic deeds since the start in the manga and anime did portray some of his most selfish moments the way they were in the manga (allowing Vegeta to live, fucking off to train for a year after Freeza saga etc.). What's the difference between anime Goku and manga Goku?

They're both equally terrible.

I can never forgive GT for having the worst opening arcs I have ever witnessed.

I'm not sure as I've only ever seen the anime and it's been forever since I've seen the original DB, but I remember reading somewhere that that's what Toriyama said in an interview.

Just imagine a fun and whacky space-adventure series focusing on 3 or so main characters, one of which is Goku and one of which is Vegeta.
Shit just wouldn't work, unless you completely change Vegeta's character. Vegeta was great in Z, but that's because the dark tone of the series worked well with his edginess and there were other characters contrasting him.

>How so? Trunks and Goten would have been better if you wanted Trunks or Pan and Bulla/Uub/Goten would have been better if you wanted Pan. Besides Pan being a shitty character in GT
To be fair, I haven't watched GT since I was a kid. I might remember some things wrong.
IIRC Goten became a faggot after Buu-arc, bitching about Goku training him and chasing around after girls and shit.
Uub always was shit, starving indian kid, zero charisma, he couldn't carry a show.
Bulla wasn't even a fighter.
Trunks at least retained a fraction of the coolness of future Trunks and Pan was the only character left still gung-ho about fighting.
They were definitely the right choice IMO.

Yeah, I know about the interview, but I have no idea what Toriyama meant.

this

>Space Explorer Arc vs. Battle of Gods
>Baby Saga vs. Resurrection F
>Super 17 vs. Universe 6 Tournament
>Shadow Dragon vs. Goku Black

The U6 tournament wasn't too bad and the Goku Black arc was pretty good up until the ending.

Well if what we see in Super is what he meant then he made a mistake.

this but unironically

They thought it was a good idea to make Goku a kid again

They have no idea what constitutes a good villain.

It's seriouly horrifying how little fuck everyone gives about this Universe deletion stuff. I mean, even if they win, 7 universes and billions of lives are going to be lost, and they won't just go to comfy afterlife but straight up cease to exist. I know that they can do little about it, but it'd be nice to see people reflect on that a little bit.

The Shadow Dragons was a very good idea, just poorly executed. Having them face the consequences of abusing a mystical force to treat the afterlife as a revolving door should have been how Dragon Ball as a whole should end. How Super is planning to end, I have no idea, but it's surely going to be as inconclusive as the Buu arc.

Having people come back from death like nothing was the biggest mistake in Dragon Ball Z. It allowed them to go scot free with shit that ended up ruining any sense of urgency. That's what pisses me off with Super. Take as an example Resurrection of F. For how hyped it was, watching the whole thing felt like a walk in the park. Frieza became a joke. Everything including the very survival of the universe feels like very low stakes thanks to Goku and his 'I don't give a fuck except for the fights' attitude. Even Vegeta is a better character by this point.

Boring as fuck, shit power scaling, nobody but Goku doing anything of note. Goku acted like a bumbling retard half the time and had to be lead around by the nose by Trunks and Pan. Plus all the times they conveniently forgot they could fly or go Super Saiyan.

Everyone was hoping for a gay sex scene with Vegeta and Goku but it never happened. They just kept teasing it and teasing it but it never quite happened.

>reasonable post, good opinion
>apparently watches Super
You seem to not be utterly retarded, how can you even stomach Super ?
I dropped it after one episode.

Not the same guy, but I just like watching people punch each other. I think part of your problem with Super is that you're taking it too seriously and not watching it for what it is, which is a show about punching people really hard.

What's up with Kale's transformation. That aint regular SSJ, right?

I dunno man, I have a lot of personal attachment to Dragon Ball, it was the first manga I ever bought.
Super takes a shit on the original, even harder than Evolution did, because this time it's canon.
What's more, anime about punching each other are only cool as long as fights look good and have a semblance of plausibility.
I really can't enjoy Super on any level, and frankly, if you've seen the better Shonen fighting series (Hunter x Hunter, first two Bleach arcs, old DBZ, OPM, etc.), you shouldn't either.

I think it'd be better if people treated Super as sort of a spin-off or whatever and not try to over-analyze everything. Like you shouldn't wonder how Muten Roshi can keep up with Tenshinhan let alone Goku, the truth is that gramps is finally gonna kick some asses after all thiese years, and you shouldn't allow anything to ruin it for you. Don't think of story a whole enjoy the few good moments you find and don't let the rest bother you. After all, for older fans it's really just a nostalgia trip and it hardly tries to be anything more with all these references and minimum amount of originality.

Why does 'canon' bother you? It's not like the dragon world exist anywhere objectively, what comes after shouldn't hurt finished story that is Dragon Ball.

GT is great. I don't know why its so popular to hate on it. If you don't like GT then I gave you don't like early Dragon Ball either. it's on the same level as Dragon Ball (not Z). Adventuring through planets, finding dragon balls and getting involved into all sorts of stuff was great. A decent sci-fi show. It felt kind of like the plot of an JRPG

Fuck both of you. These excuses are so stupid. Seriously, there's no excuse for DBS. They had a load of mistakes in GT, and Z to learn from. It doesn't take much analysis to see the flaws. The writing is fucked and they keep piling on characters when there were already too many of them.

I mean, fuck, it's like I'm talking to WWE fans here.

>I just want to see fights
Great, go watch something else, Dragon Ball anime usually has a lot of talking.

It really isn't and early Dragon Ball was much easier to get into, considering how much better the world building was, and you could believe that Goku wasn't always going to win. Plus, other characters were allowed to be quite relevant. GT was just cheaply trying to recapture the magic from the first series and Z. And guess what? It failed at both.

>on the same level as dragon ball
It had a bit of potential for the first six or so episodes. The moment the para para brothers showed up, it went to shit.

>Dragon Ball anime usually has a lot of talking
What anime doesn't?

This.
Vegeta and Goku are perfect for each other

Dragon Ball Super is so bad.. i can't even really put into words why.
I think it's like everything feels so forced, there's no atmosphere, the jokes aren't funny, the characters are dumbed down by 100 IQ points.

DB GT made a lot of mistakes and weird choices. One of them was Vegeta turning SSJ4 without ever turning SSJ3. Now we have DB Super, and it's the same shit. Vegeta doesn't know how to turn SSJ3, but he can turn SSSSJJGSSSSJJJB.
DB GT brought back Cyborg 17 as an enemy even though he should obviously be weak and irrelevant. Now DB Super does the same shit with Frieza.

Everything.
SSJ4 is rad looking tho

It's artificial. If it turned out that a Toei committee was writing this, I wouldn't be surprised. There are so many uses of cheap nostalgia bait, regardless of whether the writing makes sense (fuck Future Trunks) and the worst part is that it's working for them. In terms of finances, that is.

The fact that they introduced more god-like figures and more universes, along with Super Dragon Balls made everything previously established feel irrelevant. Nothing means anything anymore. Redlettermedia would have a field day with Dragon Ball now.

>GOKU, VEGETA, GOHAN
>SUPER SAIYANS
>FRIEZA
>TOURNAMENT
>FIGHTING

>THESE ARE THINGS THAT I KNOW

apparently there's a group of autists think this shit would make a good sequel to GT

youtube.com/watch?v=jtfPLV_pzns

>almost got cancelled after Baby and Super 17

I think their biggest mistake was making Battle of the Gods and Resurrection F canon.

WWE fans at least know their shit is fake.

That's a difficult question, because it's so abstract.
To keep my answer short, isn't this a quality over quantity issue ?
If Super adds nothing of value, it shouldn't exist, it's as simple as that.
Imagine the following: Say a popular LN with a love-triangle releases two editions of the final volume,
one for each girl, where that girl wins.
Wouldn't that be the ultimate non-ending ?
I want fiction to have a beginning, middle and end and a moral.
If it's just a perpetually going shallow spectacle devoid of any meaning, it's shit.

I have always wondered about this image, is goku smiling??

>one for each girl, where that girl wins.
That's a bad example because you are actually adding something of value then. Neither GT nor Super have any value at all.
It's more like saying you have a popular LN with a love-triangle. And in the end, the one girl wins. But then 10 years later the author releases a new volume, with more girls that all lust after the MC's dick even though the love story is supposed to be over

/thread

>Super takes a shit on the original, even harder than Evolution did,
You should be embarrassed about this statement

Third post best post.
Niggas like to make fun of Pedros for watching GT but if you're watching super you're a bona fide Paco.

Just the fact that it was made in the 90's makes it better than Super. Fuck that modern animation and style.

At least with Evolution everyone treats it as it should be treated.
It is never brought up nor acknowledged.
With Super on the other hand there are people unironically defending it.
I think Super will do a lot more harm than Evolution ever did.

The truth hurts

>sucking the dick of Toei cashgrab this hard.
GT is what happens when you let those guys try to run the show.
Clearly you don't remember all those off model characters, Uchiyama episodes, bad animation, budget cuts and more.

not making the series about gohan, goten, trunks, pan, and bra.

Still better than super.
Stay mexican.

As if Super isn't just as bad in that regard.
I'd go so far as to say that for its time GT looked a lot better than Super.

Now someone post a little QUALITY from DBS.

Facing the consequences for abusing the dragonballs seems like a logical story idea given how abysmally they were treated in Z.

I didn't even mentioned Super. You are defending a cash grab instead of another cash grab of Toei. How deluded are you that you consider a shitty show is better just because is a different shit show. It's like is talking garbage of GT means I like Super, which I dont.
Super also looks bad for the same reason.

I'm not defending shit you insufferable nigger. GT is trash, Super just happens to be even more trash.

Replying to that third post really makes it look like you're defending super tho, just saying.

>this shit smells less worse than this shit

You clearly showed to me.
I just think it's absurd people defend a cashgrab over another cashgrab. They are both horrible and bad.

Not really, that's what God (Dende) is for. He needs to stop the abuse. But if he willingly allows it, that implies it's okay to use the dragon balls that way.
in fact, I don't think anybody gives a shit, not even the Kaioshin or Beerus. Even King Kai wanted to be revived by the Dragon Balls.
If none of the higher beings - that are supposed to set the moral rules of the universe - gives a shit, why should there be consequences?

Apologies for bad English btw

You are actually retarded.

>wahh user said GT is bad just like Super
Take your pills.

Even with the Dragon Radar the dormancy period was a reasonable consequence for the Dragonballs, except Z is filled with numerous timeskips specifically for the purpose of waiting for the Dragonballs, which is stupid.

>muh tv-rips

Take your tacos Miguel

Because it takes away all the urgency from the conflict. It turns a plethora of possibilities into the choices: Everyone lives happily ever after until the new baddie comes or everyone gets fucked and the world/universe is destroyed. And Dragon Ball simply can't pick the latter. Proof of that is that Goku never grew up past the first episodes of DBZ. Toriyama knew this and tried to pass the torch to Gohan and have Goku fuck off forever to bring at least some change. But everyone said no and now that stagnation is visible in Super. I simply can't bring myself to care what happens there if so far nothing has changed or has any chance of changing whatsoever.

That's the problem with the current DBS. It has no stakes. Can any of you tell me you honestly believe any of the universes is going to be destroyed? You know they're going to asspull their way out of that, like they've done in all prior instances.

Dragon ball was my childhood.

I watch it while I have it running as back ground noise while I work.

Making the Gohan the new MC doesn't work though because he barely has a character throughout DBZ. The start of the timeskip is a good improvement, but the audience doesn't have any reason to take it seriously.

SS4 and the shadow dragons are better concepts than anything Super has done. The rest is shit, tho, but not that far from DBS.

>and tried to pass the torch to Gohan and have Goku fuck off forever to bring at least some change
But that wouldn't change anything in regards to what seems to trouble your enjoyment of the show, ie the existence of the dragon balls allowing the cast to solve most of the damage done by the villain they have just taken down. All that would be useful for is replacing the main fighter for the team.

If anything the only way to solve this problem would have been to end the story before the saiyan arc, seeing as having Piccolo as the last villain meant there was tension as you put it given how with his death there would be no more dragon balls, too. Although the series ending there would mean no Goku passing the torch to anyone ever, given how the ending of the arc is almost word for word Goku letting Piccolo go away because he wouldn't cause trouble with Goku around, and at the time no one on Earth could even hope to match Piccolo's strength.

>hat's the problem with the current DBS. It has no stakes. Can any of you tell me you honestly believe any of the universes is going to be destroyed? You know they're going to asspull their way out of that, like they've done in all prior instances.
That's what the audience want. They tried a bittersweet ending with real loss with the Zamasu arc and Japan went apeshit

too old for me
>yes