Why do anons in Sup Forums claim Communism is bad when it has never been implemented?

Why do anons in Sup Forums claim Communism is bad when it has never been implemented?
>inb4 the meme ball maymay
Literally not an argument, true communism, as Marx envisioned, has never been tried. All of them (Russia, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc) turned into totalitarian autocracies. That is not communism.

fuck off meme flag coward

ad hom is not an argument

>has never been tried
most common phrase used by communists

Because it is true?

Because every method of implementation has failed thus far and the implemented result is very likely to fail judging by those same result.

I am an empiricist and we know what it actually results in. It never makes it to your utopian phase and it never will. To try again is to invite totalitarianism. That is a pragmatic argument for why I don't support it, but there are also other reasons.

I tried communism once and my arms and legs fell off. sad

>never been implemented

communism means the unification of humanity. socialism was built in the ussr, only pickaxehead trots deny that

>Because every method of implementation has failed thus far
Because all those "communist" dictators used the term "communism" to rise to power. They never wanted to implement it, just an excuse to get the people's support.

>dictators

like who you dumb trot? everyone was elected in the ussr

>everyone was elected in the ussr
Not Stalin

>not stalin

[citation needed]

How can you consider a hammer or a toothbrush a personal property, when in cummunism there's no property?
What is difference between personal property and private property?
If private property covers means of production, what stops me from disassembling a mean of production and claim the parts to be my personal property?
Why would you waste resource producing more than say (hypothetically) 1 hammer/toothbrush per 7 persons?

How can one cultivate and harvest crops to personal use, when there's no personal property to be used for farming in cummunism?
How do you allocate public land for this personal farming?
Who allocates the public land used by the collective?

The ten Planks of Communist manifesto:
#8 "Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of Industrial armies, especially for agriculture."
> Equal obligation
How can a stateless and non-hierarchical society enforce this?
> Your work-time is equivalent to everybody else's work-time
Am I forced to sit and drawn hentai for as long as others work in factory, if I don't want to do manual labour as an artist?
If "... each according to his needs", what stops me claiming to acquire 70% of goods to suffice my needs?
How can anyone else define how my needs are sufficed?
How can a collective deny me coming over demand 70% of goods that others have gathered through hard manual labour, while I can provide them only hentai sketches?
How is Theft defined in cummunist world, when there's no property in non-hierarchical society you can steal from others?

Sage

You're proving that communism can't work right now.

He just succeeded lenin after his death and killed Trotsky to assert his position.

How so?

False, it has been tried but has failed at every turn. Why? Because people are selfish.
Selfish doesn't always mean bad. It could be as simple as setting priorities.

>The proper outcome to communism hasn't been forced right

hmm

Answer me you useless faggots

Because if you weren't a retarded child who simply wants capitalism + free stuff, you would know that the economic calculation is an impenetrable problem. We are not clones, we are individuals.

...

Literally I see this thread everyday and get the same replies.

>Thread: "Guise communism is good, see?"
>Sup Forums: Fuck off it doesn't work and posts evidence
>OP gets into butthurt defense mode
>OP gets rekt
>Tries to pull, "I was kidding xD"
>Thread dies


Repeat

>How can you consider a hammer or a toothbrush a personal property, when in cummunism there's no property?

there is no private property

>What is difference between personal property and private property?

one has use value, the other generates capital. a toothbrush is personal property, a factory is private property

>If private property covers means of production, what stops me from disassembling a mean of production and claim the parts to be my personal property?

the government, the army, the police etc

>Why would you waste resource producing more than say (hypothetically) 1 hammer/toothbrush per 7 persons?

you won't. central planning saves resources because everything is produces on a usage-base, not in surplus

>How can one cultivate and harvest crops to personal use, when there's no personal property to be used for farming in cummunism?

farms were collectivized

>How can a stateless and non-hierarchical society enforce this?

there won't be a need, since communism implies a state of automation in the production process

he was voted general secretary before lenin died in the 11th party congress. he offered his resignation 3 times, but was denied. trotsky's idiotic model was rejected by a vote inside the party, his expulsion was also decided by the party democratically

ive made a threat like this around 4 times. most of the times, it's simply too hard to keep up with the rate of replies as one line of questions from 1 user might need 3 posts reply, by which time another 5 anons have commented something

>False, it has been tried but has failed at every turn. Why? Because people are selfish.
How is achieving a classless society being selfish? It never "failed" because not a single historical "communist" was a communist as Marx described.

You are not hominem

classic commie teenager

>has never been tried

Lets assume thats true, and all current "communist" countries are failed attempts... that still means that every time someone tries to do it many, many people have to die for one reason or another.

Commies may be willing to sacrifice a few million lives to give communism its 30th shot, but most people are not.

why dont you actually read marx first before trying to preach him you dumb pickaxehead? or better yet, go fraction up with your buddies

>ad hom
Not an argument I'm afraid

Grown up, kiddo.

history progresses and doesn't remain stationary. just like capitalism didn't replace feudalism on 1 try, neither will socialism replace capitalism.

>argument
>with a trot

i'd rather argue with these nazis than with your kind you filth

You know, coining from a Communist who mostly is now a Nationalist, you just make me sick. I'm fucking around anymore, all you do is kill, starve, and mostly do not let people strive, but only to be used as slaves to a ideology that has no purpose anymore, and is now only used for edgy kids going through puberty like you.

Read an book for once and actually stop what you are doing and face the facts. It wont work, people will get greedy and people will always resort to Capitalism in the end, just like how China is starting to now, OH WAIT, They are getting less communist and getting more Nationalist.

I'm done with your kind, and mostly your ideology, you make me sick, you make me mad, and I hope I find you with my scope in indeed we ever come to a civil war in this country.

A classless society is a human-less society.

>history progresses and doesn't remain stationary

Agreed, so instead of trying to force it down people's throats just wait for it to occur naturally. There may come a time when humans change to become more compatible with communism or technology advances to the point that it becomes viable (Star Trek replicators, etc).

Until then give it a fucking rest.

>as Marx envisioned
Bakunin > Marxshits
Authoritarianism inevitably leads to state-corruption, the state is forever the enemy of the people it "serves" no matter what propaganda it pushes out.

>Communism hasn't been tried
>implies that we should by saying first statement
Well go try it then. At best show a model (not a meme or some Wikipedia link) that shows it works. If it does go try it somewhere else. These threads are a dime a dozen oh wait you dont believe in dimes or other currancy.

>Until then give it a fucking rest.
Good luck with that

Then give me an example of a historical communist that was a true Marxist who implemented Marx's teachings?

> there is no private property
Then how can there be a concept of personal property?
> one has use value
everything has value you dumb fuck
> the other generates capital
so what should we do in the case where a personal property starts to produce capital?
> the government, the army, the police etc
you have none of those in hierarchiless, communist society, soyboy. Any of those entities are violation of hierarchless society concept due to exciding power over me.
> you won't.
goddamn what a shithole
> farms were collectivized
meaning?
> there won't be a need
there will be need if I can just go and take a piece of means of production for my own personal usage. In the end, no one can stop me as it's common property.
> a state of automation in the production process
elaborate, how does this system function?

societies don't change well because people aren't as easy to mold as communist would like to think.

1. You really believe that if you once again tried to set up this amazing communist utopia where nobody had to work and the people's state would divide all the goods of society, anyone would feel obligated to work since they have to deliver everything they make to the state for redistribution? What do you think happened in the fields of russia or right now in venezuela. People stopped growing wheat or working for a "common good" because there was no gain in it for them.
2. What kind of system would you set in place to stop a stalin, pol pot, mao, castro etc to ever get in power and just make it yet another totalitarian rule

It's an unattainable fantasy and even trying to try it leads to ruin.

Gayboi, its not worth arguing with them, they are just a machine, a tool.
They arent human until you free them with redpills.
In the meantime, forget it

>Tfw communism would work but we just need to get rid of human nature, genetic differences between races, adopt low iq people into positions of power and magically distribute 2 pounds of food for every 1 pund we produce

even if you take the premise it has never been tried it won't work simple because we could never get far enough into it to actually try it because it is inherently corrupt. there is always and only one winner. guess who?

Marxism is a divide and conquer ideology:
Uses race, gender, age, income, education and religion to divide the people.

capitalism was coined by Marx - economies are far more complex.
racism was coined by Trotsky - cultural and ethnic relationships are far more complex.
religion/no god - who the fuck knows what's out there, you're going to hand your life over to the state who sees you as nothing, but a cog in the wheel with no purpose unless you make the state more powerful?
equality - fuck that nose. men and women are fucking different, you haven't figured that out yet?

Marxism is simply Jew double talk. don't forget they have tried pulling this shit for over 1000 years, it sounds nice, but all they do is make you a slave while they fleece, starve and kill you, that's why they've been tossed out of every country they slip into over 100 times.

Find your people. Find your tribe. They look like you.
Support them and they will support you.
No double talk, no lies, fast sales or deceptions. Your people look out for you and you use your HONEST talents and hard work to better them AND YOU. Learn for history, never, ever trust a jew. You can tell who they are if there's a profit in the end to be made.

>coining from a Communist who mostly is now a Nationalist

communist my ass, you most likely were a liberal that's another kind of liberal atm. or are you saying you actually studied marx and theory?

>all you do is kill, starve, and mostly do not let people strive

garbage bourgeoisie propaganda. capitalism starves the globe even today, it has starved over a billion in india alone

>Read an book for once and actually stop what you are doing and face the facts

rich coming from you. did you read das kapital? no. uneducated kid telling me to read a book, fucking rich

>Agreed, so instead of trying to force it down people's throats just wait for it to occur naturally

except that's not how it works. the bourgeoisie toppled feudalism with violent revolutions, and a violent revolution is required to topple the ruling class because they simply won't stand down by themselves.

the ussr was building socialism, there is literally no way to deny this without spouting the "state capitalism" meme that's not a marxist concept but a trot one

>Then how can there be a concept of personal property?

because those 2 concepts are entirely different

>so what should we do in the case where a personal property starts to produce capital?

capital will not exist in a socialist country, hence nothing can produce it or accumulate it. personal property also can't produce capital

>you have none of those in hierarchiless, communist society, soyboy. Any of those entities are violation of hierarchless society concept due to exciding power over me.

we are talking about socialism here. communism will come only after socialism has been established for many years globally

>meaning?
meaning foodstuff is produces on a need-base and production is centrally planned.

>there will be need if I can just go and take a piece of means of production for my own personal usage. In the end, no one can stop me as it's common property.

they are, they are just dumb kids who need to understand their retardation through practical reality and logical consistancy

communism will be impossible to implement without the eradication of green and lust for power. Considering these are part of human nature, all atempts at communism will result in
> totalitarian autocracies
And you can clearly see it in the fashion of antifa and extreme liberalism/leftism in modern western society. Also if I may add here in Bulgaria all those sworn communists became the most agressive capitalists once the iron curtain fell.

Wow kid, you sure got me.
You know, I actually like the idea of Capitalism and mostly the bourgeoisie.
Also who cares that you are rich? It's just money. Save up and you will see how the world works.
In the meantime, think that you are correct, and sooner or later you will face reality.

Just give them Animal farm.

I don't need to try killing myself to know it's a bad idea

Because it can't be implemented. A stateless Communism requires everyone to be in agreement and "pulls the same way" or be lobotomized cattle.

IE Humans are pricks by nature.

So you unironically believe the next time will be different

Post your best red pill image,
be it Nazi best values, white supremacy purist or plain Jew death, post your best red pill pics

Red pill party start now! O yeah

Take the mask off

>there will be need if I can just go and take a piece of means of production for my own personal usage. In the end, no one can stop me as it's common property.

you have to understand that for communism to be implemented, many years of socialism will be needed. the concept of exploitation itself, through centuries of socialism, will be eradicated from the ideological pool of society. if one person attempts anything like this, communal action will be enough to correct him.

>elaborate, how does this system function?
automation means machines will do manual labor for most bulk production. in essence, only quality labour (not quantity) will be needed in a communist society

again, you confuse communism with socialism. read my posts above

>What kind of system would you set in place to stop a stalin, pol pot, mao, castro etc to ever get in power and just make it yet another totalitarian rule

that has never historically happened. stalin never ruled in an authoritarian fashion, but was elected. decisions are voted in party congresses and must be approved by the supreme soviet, the position of general secretary itself is democratically filled. also, don't mix pol pot into the pot. he was a cia shill that was put in place to combat vietnamese communists

I say it is bad because Marx envisioned the shift to communism as an inevitability and the scientifically verifiable outcome of peoples' revolutions against capitalism. The Communist Manifesto was his projections for the future based on what he very foolishly believed to be a scientific reading of history.

The fact that communist revolutions always turn into totalitarian autocracies is evidence that Marx's dialectic was incorrect. Hell, the fact that the revolution started in Russia instead of Germany disproves his entire thesis.

> because those 2 concepts are entirely different
elaborate then
> hence nothing can produce it or accumulate it
then how can private property produce capital?
> personal property also can't produce capital
can't pieces of art produce capital?
> we are talking about socialism here. communism will come only after socialism
I was talking about within a communist society, so how are you going to stop me from taking a piece of mean of production for my personal use in hierarchless communist society? It's common property after all, so what can stop me when nobody can exercise hierarchical power over me?
> on a need-base
Who defines this need? What if my personal need in a year would require 70% of produced food for being a fat fuck?
How could a collective exercise hierarchical power over me and stop me taking the 70% of the food to cover my needs?

>the ussr was building socialism
[citation needed]

> communal action will be enough to correct him.
that's projection of hierarchical power over me.
what if there are multiple of us who would like to dismantle a mean of production, how will it be decided whether it will be done or not?

> communal action will be enough to correct him.
Like the Borg in Star Trek. This is essentially what you advocating for which is fine, but I am not interested.

>capitalism starves the globe even today, it has starved over a billion in india alone
why would we care about the lower evolved races that do not even possess the forethought to have fewer kids? They deserve their fates and they are enabled by the bourgeoise in the first place.

Because it can be rebutted a priori.

>elaborate then
private property means you, the individual, get's to control a piece of property or an item that produces capital. the owner of a factory for example owns the factory as private property. personal property means items that you won't use to earn capital, but will directly yourself utilize for their function.

>then how can private property produce capital?

the worker's produce it, but through private property the capitalist accumulates the capital. he owns the object that the worker used to generate the capital, hence by bourgeoisie law the capital belongs to him and the worker gets a "cut". this capital accumulates and gives the class that possesses it political power

>can't pieces of art produce capital?
yes, but the process that a piece of art can produce capital in inherently capitalist and wouldn't exist in a socialist country. all art would be communal and exhibited for everyone, you wouldn't be able to rent it or sell it

>I was talking about within a communist society, so how are you going to stop me from taking a piece of mean of production for my personal use in hierarchless communist society? It's common property after all, so what can stop me when nobody can exercise hierarchical power over me?

how would you seize a factory alone? do you not understand that even the concept of capital, money, wouldn't exist in a communist world?

>Who defines this need? What if my personal need in a year would require 70% of produced food for being a fat fuck?
How could a collective exercise hierarchical power over me and stop me taking the 70% of the food to cover my needs?

in a communist society food would be abundant. we already have the capabilities today for the whole planet to eat as fat fucks, but it simply isn't profitable to feed everyone

you're the one making the claim that after lenin's death the ussr stopped being socialist. i'm asking you to back it up

Then round up a ~1 million commies, buy an island and built up your perfect communist state. We'll see how well that'll work out.

>wasn't real communism meme
Oh fuck off already. Or even better, let's pretend, for argument's sake, "real communism" has never been implemented. Why is that? Marx wrote his shit in the 19th century and plenty of countries have tried it since then. Why have they failed every single time? Can it be your ideology is a joke and doesn't work in real life? Why the fuck should anyone even consider implementing it after such a long history of failure?

even the concept of you wanted to take over something and raise an army to do so, is a concept of the modern neoliberal world. this will not exist in the ideological pool of humanity, when people grow up with communist education and abundance of basic things

ye no

take that flag off please

>that has never historically happened. stalin never ruled in an authoritarian fashion
opinion disregarded, you are too far up your own ass

I don't claim that. However, communists are bad and communism is a plebeian ideology.

it's true. you haven't done any research on the subject, you simply believe the mainstream opinion that's essentially ruling class propaganda.

Good luck getting children too listen and obey. Kids have a way of pushing the boundaries. As long as people have imagination they will find a way around rules and regulations.
Anything created by man can be destroyed by man.

>you're the one making the claim that after lenin's death the ussr stopped being socialist
When did I say that?
Lenin would have been the same as Stalin, a dictator. He wasn't real
Also, it isnt socialism if the people/proletariat aren't owning the means of production.

you're projecting today's neoliberal upbringing and education on a completely different model of society

ah so you aren't even a trot, you're a leftcom?

> personal property means items that you won't use to earn capital, but will directly yourself utilize for their function.
why couldn't one utilise a personal property to produce capital? What will be done in a case this occurs?
> the worker's produce it
you nigger already said that private property can't produce capital in communist society. So how can one determine what is private property and what is personal property?
> all art would be communal and exhibited for everyone, you wouldn't be able to rent it or sell it
how are you going to determine a piece of arts value if cannot produce capital?
How could you deny an artists demand for his share of products if he gave collective only few sketch books of hentai in return?
> do you not understand that even the concept of capital, money, wouldn't exist in a communist world?
you don't seem to understand my question dumb nigger: a piece of means of production could be part of a machince producing goods, e.g. a cog or generator etc. What would stop me from taking such pieces for my need if they are part of common property?
> in a communist society food would be abundant.
Answer my questions you useless nigger:
Who defines this need? What if my personal need in a year would require 70% of produced food for being a fat fuck?

If Communists intend t protect their brand from third world despots, they'd better start accusing folks of appropriating those hammers and sickles that fly on flags across the southern hemisphere.

How so? Can you explain it in way that even a child can understand?

Communism can be disproved by one simple question:

Why should I work?

No, seriously. If everything will be provided for me, then why should I contribute to the system?

>t.brainlet who doesn't understand socialism

> this will not exist in the ideological pool of humanity
How couldn't it exist? It is a practical question that you're dodging you useless nigger.
now answer my questions:
how can collective exercise power over me in hierachless society?
what if there are multiple of us who would like to dismantle a mean of production, how will it be decided whether it will be done or not?

Yes, and?

that's a fair point:
If I don't want to work, how can you force me in hierarchless society?
How can you deny my share of goods even if I don't work because I don't want to?

>why couldn't one utilise a personal property to produce capital? What will be done in a case this occurs?

because personal property is abundant enough so that it isn't capable of producing capital (in a socialist country). in a communist world, capital doesn't exist. you'd have to lead a successful global counter-revolution to establish a monetary-wage system that would allow you to once again accumulate capital

>So how can one determine what is private property and what is personal property?

determine it when? now? in a socialist society? in a communist one? those 3 things are 3 separate occasions

>how are you going to determine a piece of arts value if cannot produce capital?

most likely through the manhours involved in it's production. an artist whose well-beeing is guaranteed is much more productive than today's poor artist that works in starbucks to begin with

>What would stop me from taking such pieces for my need if they are part of common property?

so what's stoping you from actively sabotaging the communal production units? i don't know, the rest of the people? why would you do that? and even if you did cause you're a mentally unstable downie, why do you think you wouldn't be punished?

>Who defines this need? What if my personal need in a year would require 70% of produced food for being a fat fuck?

do you understand what abundant means? you can literally eat a finite amount of food, so that times the world population will be covered

you are projecting concepts and values that we hold today on a society that will take centuries to reach. you must understand that humans are molded by their upbringing and their education. assuming a child raised in a communal society with basic resource abundance will have the same psychological tendencies as a child raised in today's neoliberal world is a projection of how much you've internalized today's society as an absolute human condition.cont

>my very specific version of communism that could only work in a political, social, and economic vacuum has never been tried before, therefore communism has never been tried before
You know why I hate communism? Because only autistic fucks like you are dumb enough to promote it.

>Why is UTOPIA as I envision it bad, whare as it hasnt been tried?
All these regimes that collapsed invested everything they had in looking like Marx's dream, and it failed miserably killing hundreds of thousands of people. Why is communism bad, although it hasn't been tried? Either:
a) You will try, like all the others you will fail and bring death and misery
b) You acknowledge that it is just a dream, it is in your head so fuck off

cont

today's ideals and values are much different than in hunter gatherer societies or in feudalist societies. some concepts have been completely eradicated from the ideological pool of humanity already. no one believes in paganism for example anymore, save for some people that do so in a retro-escapist way. but the true paganists have gone extinct, the concept of having to offer meat to the gods when building a new house is gone. no one with a neoliberal upbringing and education will believe this anymore, because any cause or source of the idea has been removed from society

of course it can exercise power over you, what do yo uthink communism means? if you're a danger to society you will be punished, who told you it won't be otherwise? this is a concept you've established yourself.

You can't make me, bourgeoise slave.

you're not an anarchist, dunno what you're trying to achieve with such an idiotic attempt at falseflagging

'True communism' will never work as a society. If you take away the profit motive then people will not work as hard and society will collapse. The only way a communist society will function is if there is a brutal dictator to keep the population in line and working. You can't have both communism and freedom, it will never work, that's just human nature.

Hundreds of millions*

10 gozillions*

Why do you prefer forced sharing to voluntary sharing?

You go to gulag

Jesus, these communist threads don't even need non reds to fail. You'll just start shit flinging amongst yourselves. Sad!

>turned into totalitarian autocracies. That is not communism.
Yes, it is and it always turned into this, regardless of where of by whom it was tried.

leftcoms aren't communists. but again, you think liberals are communists so there's no point into explaining to you why leftcoms aren't communists

You get the share if you work
If you don't work you don't get anything
Simple as that.

"no true scotsman" fallacy.

>you are projecting concepts and values that we hold today on a society that will take centuries to reach

Then what is the point of having an in depth conversation now? It's like the ancient Greeks wondering what it would be like to walk on the Moon. It might be nice to think about as intellectual exercise but has no practical application now.

>my version of communism is true communism, while yours is fake
Fuck off Stalinist/Maoist scum