Libertarians please help me understand this

Libertarians please help me understand this.

Minarchism is where the state exists only to ensure "basic" rights i.e. enforcing laws regarding theft, assault, battery, murder etc. I'm going by the book "Anarchy, State and Utopia".

These rights seem to be in line with libertarian thinking, so minarchism appears to be the quintessential libertarian ideology - the state is limited in scope and restricted in power.

But most libertarians don't like it. The arguments are usually "all taxation is theft" or "private enterprises can provide those services". Or something along those lines.

I find these points contradictory. How can you ensure property and natural rights to all, through private enterprise, and without taxing anyone?

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this guy looks like if you hybridized Ron Pearlman with the Hottentot Venus and then ran a deniggerfying filter on it but only used the tint and contrast sliders

Isn't going full "taxes are theft" mode more in line with anarchists? Idk I always understood libertarianism with what you just described as minarchism. State should be as small as possible and as big as necessary. Which seems fine with me.

philosphically, libertarians agree that taxation is immoral, but pragmatically, they disagree on what could realistically be achieved.
the goal of a libertarian society is maximum possible liberty, and some argue that a minimal state is required to ensure this, while others would argue that any state is wrong, no matter how limited in scope
essentially, libertarians on one side and full ancaps on the other

That's exactly what I thought, that zero tax = zero state, which is anarchism. Minarchism is a sensible form of libertarianism - a solution to chaos.

I don't really get how ancaps are different to anarchists. They talk about the non-aggression principle but don't say how it is enforced.

The only thing that makes sense in ancap is the possibility of the abuse of power, even in a legally limited and restricted state.

life is theft or at best in plants living off the bones of the dead (although just to subsist and breed not even to elevate in a willful way)

Lolbertarians live in a wishy washy world where humans are especially above nature in a realm of metaphysical abstractions that can absolve them of any culpability for negative outcomes.

Well let me say this, if you treat yourselves and others as just responsible for what you want to be don't come whining about some monster that nabs you or your children in the dark

Take responsibility or don't
Quit half assing things


Taxation other than sales tax is immoral
For only sales in a somewhat safe marketplace are truly enable by a society
Where as everything else could either be done without society such as income or property or they are excessive aberrations off of what was at first a sales taxable event and are merely siphoning by corrupt and inept classes political or plebeian

This is putting all of your faith in institutions that are run by people, who should also magically be competent and incorruptible.

When you see a fault in the government your answer is to replace the politicians with other politicians. This is the exact mentality that keeps politicians where they are, because of instead of seeing the system as the problem, you blame it on the people, who coincidentally always fail

Not true you're making a lot of presuppositions about my other positions politically
I see the problem as human training, like misbehaved dogs they merely are poorly raised

Yes governmental deign needs a total overhaul but that doesn't mean it can't be funded by a justifiable taxation
Though the tax rate in a justifiable society should be every decreasing do to a governmental/societal enable booming economy

However the question was involving taxation specifically

Personally I'm believe blockchain based theocratic caste system all members are tested into and can rise through if capable

was 4

>Yes governmental deign needs a total overhaul
That old chestnut...

So we're clear, I'm also in favour of tax to ensure basic rights. The point of contention is whether education and healthcare should be funded through tax.

This is the most elementary principle in economics - competition improves efficiency and outcomes. There is no competition in state education and healthcare, thus they perform poorly.

No human training is ever going to change that and all ideas that we can just design a better government are rooted in poor understanding of complex systems, or straight up delusions of grandeur.

don't try and understand libertarians. It's gay. It's a mental masturbation distraction that accomplishes nothing.

strawman argument
libertarians are softcore ancaps, but their arguments are simplified for normies, hence "all taxation is theft"
minarchism is best
don't be confused by normie messaging

>But most libertarians don't like it. The arguments are usually "all taxation is theft" or "private enterprises can provide those services". Or something along those lines.

The fear is that any government will inevitably grow outside of its constraints given enough time. If we want to apply this to an even deeper concept. All bureaucracy will eventually grow if given enough time. Libertarians do not like bureaucracy, especially large unchanging ones.

>How can you ensure property and natural rights to all, through private enterprise, and without taxing anyone?

You make as much of the system voluntary as possible and that which is involuntary is the least intrusive would be the proper answer.

Another answer would be that the scale or size of government must become smaller so that people have more control over it.

Where is the strawman exactly? I asked a question, I don't think I made an argument anywhere.

I'm not sure I understand your post entirely.

I think you just mixed political ideology (libertarianism), type of government (minarchism) and preferred contractor (private vs. public)

Do you REALLY want to have a fruitful conversation or just want to say words and we respond with words?

First off remove meme flag

See I agree in part that competition breeds better outcomes however I disagree in that it can't be guided or restrained

I believe the government has no place directly in business other through licensing,
per example a government could mandate all early education could have to involve certain curriculum such as Logic and argument structure, nutrition and basics of psychology for self awareness and control

I see yopu as being either ignorant or pessimistic on the pliability of humans towards the positive when it has never been attempted en mass

Most libertarians I know agree that fundamentally taxation is theft, but recognize that some taxation may be necessary, just like theft may in some very specific cases be justified. The only people who truly belive a libertarian society can flourish without any government oversight are AnCaps and I'm not convinced any AnCaps who aren't just memeing exist.

I'd say minarchism is a subset of libertarianism. One of the most common ones.

>frog chad
oh no

>zero tax = zero state
Unless the state printed its own money.
Instead of relegating this to a private entity that charges the state interest; causing part of the taxed income to be spent on said interest.

I defined the words and referenced the definition. Other people had no problem understanding so maybe it's just you.

>mandate education
Who is to write and oversee that mandate? Who is to ensure it is free of bias and political undertones? The whole of academia has been infected politically, it's a bit weak to just assume we'll just do it better next time.

There's a whole book on this bias. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimism_bias

That's not me being pessimistic, it's you being optimistic. Tons of evidence supporting it's a cognitive bias.

> it has never been attempted en mass

Yeah the communists have been saying this for a while too. Everyone thinks their system has never been implement properly.

This pretty much. Don't confuse ancap for libertarianism. A lot of libertarians rectify the taxation is theft issue by instead making paying a tax a choice but the benefit is being allowed to vote. Kind of extreme and I prefer just to acknowledge I can't be a full libertarian, but the existence of a strong state is honestly a problem in itself to many.

Interesting point. Wouldn't a monopoly on printing lead to central banking and a federal reserve eventually? How could the state stay out of banking but at the same time collect tax to fund the basic services?

Sure thing bub, but it still isn't correct even if people use these terms as synonyms for something else. The fact doesn't change that none of these things are a) related or b) mutually exclusive in any way.

You can have a libertarian minarchist society with private and/or public contractor running the public services.

Have you read any anarcho capitalist reading? Check out some Hoppe, Rothbard, and Friedman.

Yeah he's part black. I have a coworker that's white but you look at his features and can see he had a black mom.

Nozick is a bitch, read SIEGE, Timothy McVeigh did nothing wrong.