I recently had debate with guy with so called "higher education" about minimum wage and public health care

I recently had debate with guy with so called "higher education" about minimum wage and public health care.
What is good comeback to prove that public healt hcare and minimum wage is shit concepts. His main argument is :Muh some poor guy won't be able to afford it.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio
theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/14/bill-gates-philanthropy-warren-buffett-vaccines-infant-mortality
twitter.com/SFWRedditGifs

minimum wage is price-fixing and should be totally illegal. anyone suggesting it should be treated with pimozide and ECT

They are not a solution to the cost problem. Why not address why costs are so high and wages so low? Wages are low because of importing 3rd world labor. Health care is expensive because of the marriage between monopolies and government; buying regulations to ensure competition cannot come in. A min wage increase simply continues this scam without addressing a fix. And public health care does nothing to address costs so also doesn't address the problem and fucks over everyone.

3rd world labor has to obey same laws as american citizen so it doesn't matter if you employ Indian who emigrated or American.

>3rd world labor has to obey same laws as american citizen so it doesn't matter if you employ Indian who emigrated or American.
The laws of supply and demand rule everything. When you have an over supply of workers, it drives down wages. Simple as that. It's not about everyone abiding to the same playing field. It's too many people in line.

well individual company is hiring individual people needed for their positions. One company doesn't cooperate with government to import 100 000 people.

>One company doesn't cooperate with government to import 100 000 people.
This is a strawman. I didn't suggest that. I discussed the laws of supply and demand in a market. More workers in the market than demand means lower wages. I'm not referring to an individual company.

yes but in order to drive wages down you must already have imported thousands of people.

I am just saying that you say somebody is importing 3rd worlders which I think its false statement.Government doesn't import, where did you see that government issues statement they are just randomly going to import 3rd worlders in huge numbers?
Do they organize mass flights and transportation of these 3rd worlders?

>I am just saying that you say somebody is importing 3rd worlders which I think its false statement
You're not familiar with the migrant crisis and illegal alien problem in the united states? Are you denying that legal immigration numbers are not at an all time high?

I'm not even suggesting a government is actively doing so (that is irrelevant to the topic). I am suggesting these numbers are up, thus wages down due to the laws of supply and demand. You deny migrant numbers are up?

Pol Pot had the right idea about higher education

I am not denying migrants number up, but its because you have welfare system which gives even handouts to illegals and thus making them stay. Even if you opened all borders and didn't give any social benefits you wouldn't get so many people inside because they couldn't survive for long.

Problem is social welfare which enables them to come, go to school and make them almost operate as US citizen.

Am I having a proxy debate with some leftist in Croatia? kek
If so, each of his responses has been a strawman. What I am saying is not being addressed. A common jew/leftist tactic.

But free healthcare maintain your citizens able to work, and by doing so, pay more taxes.

And about people who uses glasses, and fat people, and people who spoke more than one language...

These things can all be debated, but have nothing to do with the topic at hand. We are discussing minimum wage and why an increase is not a fix, correct? I am explaining how such a thing does not fix the problem, then elaborating to what the problem is: oversaturation of worker supply, thus lower demand, thus lower wages. I'm not going to conitnue to discuss this if you simply want to tangent to other issues for each response or strawman what I'm presenting.

Using Jew/leftie is Ad Hominem argument which dismisses someones argument based on who person who is making argument.

correct spelling for starters

>Using Jew/leftie is Ad Hominem argument which dismisses someones argument based on who person who is making argument.
It was simply a side commentary, not part of the substance of my argument. Which was
>If so, each of his responses has been a strawman. What I am saying is not being addressed.

>some poor guy won't be able to afford it.
Tell that poor guy he needs to find a job that pays better by learning how to create a resume. Minimum wage is just that. A minimum wage to be paid for work. It is at no point the end of your earning potential. IF YOU CHOOSE TO MAKE MINIMUM WAGE, IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

Ask how many applications he puts out per week to better himself?

The best way to help poor people is the foster a society that is brimming with opportunity.

Removing compulsory minimum wage would increase the number of jobs available.

Deregulating health care would lower its cost and increase the breadth of health care available.

Deregulation in general increases the agency of the individual. People who are concerned about the plight of the poor would have a greater capacity to do something about it.

You said I did strawman which is false, I addressed your argument which you put forth, and your argument is because: "we are importing 3rd worlders" - I corrected this argument because there is no active body of government for importing 3rd worlders its because they come alone, and they come alone to US because you have social welfare which enables them to stay.

Illegal immigrants can only drive wages for already shitty jobs(like picking fruit on farm), you can't employ illegal immigrants in school, factories, hospital and business which have stricter regulation and overwatch because they need to be legal...etc.

I addressed your argument that 3rd world immigrants are not problem in it self rather they are just symptom of social welfare which is main topic of thread

lol not true. Tons of what would be minimum wage labor is paid under the table for less than minimum wage. It's why people hate illegals, because they actually do work jobs for less than the minimum wage.

anyone with basic education would laugh in your face if you said this.

>"we are importing 3rd worlders" - I corrected this argument because there is no active body of government for importing 3rd worlders
How does "we are importing 3rd worlders" require a government to actively pursue it? Also, why would it matter if a government is doing so or not? The issue is if the migrant numbers are up or not. If they are up, then worker supply is up, thus wages down. Government participation in this is irrelevant to that equation.

>Illegal immigrants can only drive wages for already shitty jobs(like picking fruit on farm)
Only about 1% of illegals do farm work. I don't have a citation for that at the moment so disregard if you aren't aware of that fact. Here's what happens:
>illegals flood in
>home construction jobs all lost to illegals who can do it tax free
>legal migrants that would have been doing that work instead get factory or retail jobs that low skill american workers would normally get
>low skill american workers have less opportunity, and those jobs now have a massive supply of workers thus lower wages

>I addressed your argument that 3rd world immigrants are not problem in it self rather they are just symptom of social welfare which is main topic of thread
Their incentive for migrating is irrelevant to the discussion at hand which is why wages are low. That is supply and demand. Their motivations are meaningless to this equation. They are either here getting jobs or not. All that matters.

why are you so concerned about minimum wage and what not?? Like it prevents you from earning more.. Stop being jealous of poor people

Its extremely important if government is participating, and government is participating by making stupid policies which bring illegals and latch onto our welfare system. They wouldn't come to country to work if they would be able to survive on below minimum wage jobs. They are only able to survive by getting handouts.

And you can't tell me that construction company would risk employing tons of illegal immigrants to risk huge fines by government. Government cares about getting their taxes, if that was case you could just employ regular US worker just like illegal and give him more money under table and most of people rather agree to get higher salary under table than getting less and paying more taxes

no health insurance company would insure people with "pre-existing conditions". its a 100% money loss for them.

also there is an unlimited demand for healthcare it doesnt follow the typical supply-demand economy.

>Its extremely important if government is participating, and government is participating by making stupid policies which bring illegals and latch onto our welfare system.
I didn't say it was unimportant. I said it was irrelevant to the topic of why wages are low in a discussion of supply and demand.

I don't mean to be rude but I don't think I can continue this conversation. You aren't able to follow it. I'm simply just repeating the same unanswered points. When you have an over supply of workers wages go down. It's a very simple concept. And you answer this by saying welfare is a problem because that's why they want to come here ect. That is another conversation. We are talking about why wages are low, not why migrants WANT to come here.

YOU ARE JUST TELLING ME SYMPTOM OF LOWER WAGES NOT THE REAL PROBLEM.

Everybody knows that higher supply decresses wages, but thats because of other problems I underlined.

stop making people poor with shitty programs

Incorrect. An over supply of workers is not a symptom of lower wages, it causes lower wages. You you agree that an over abundance of migrants causes lower wages, then we can move on to their motivations for an elaboration of the discussion.

Ignore the US at your own peril, because he's bringing up a good point.
If you were to continue down your own path, then resuming your debate will go something like this

>"minimum wage is good" says the opponent
>"fucking immigrants take our jobs" says user

Only way you "win" that debate is if everyone already happen to agree with you.

>Everybody knows that higher supply decresses wages

Are you fucking blind you dumbwit
What did I just wrote?

Why do we have oversupply is real question and real problem, people just don't come in billions in foreign country to work if they are going to have same standard as in previous country.
THEY COME BECAUSE YOUR STUPID GOVERNMENT GIVES THEM WELFARE!
WHY DO MIGRANTS COME TO GERMANY AND not to other countries, BECAUSE GERMANY HAS HIGHEST BENEFITS

>Why do we have oversupply is real question and real problem
So then you agree with me that a way to increase wages is to eliminate the over supply of foreign workers? Can we establish this first? Because you've been arguing against what I've been saying and are not claiming to have been saying it all along. Which is it?

I'm of the opinion that public health care may be a good thing because it helps financial and medicinal welfare of the entire population, and believe it or not poor people are a part of that population. What's the point of an ebin WHITES ONLY FUCK OFF WE'RE FULL country if getting the flu or making the huge mistake of being born poor fucks you for life? In another episode of OPINIONS, mine is that countries don't exist to pander to the higher class, so throw the working class scum a few shekels so they can actually afford to live and breed and, you know, continuation of society happens.

I was not arguing against what you said, point I was making that this was just symptom of bigger problem which is WELFARE.
I AM ONLY POINTING OUT that WELFARE is problem. You can leave borders open and people will not come if its not profitable for them to come. If I come to USA as illegal from Croatia to work for $5 and hour it wouldn't be for me much of difference then here. If I would get food stamps, free housing, free schooling then it might be quite good.

youtube.com/watch?v=C52TlPCVDio
Watch this man and you will understand.

I don't disagree. But let's get back to minimum wage and how to fix it. If we agree that an over supply of foreign workers decreases wages, then would you agree that a way to increase wages would be to eliminate foreign workers to one extent or another?

This might be the strangest convo I've read all week.

If you remove the minimum wage you will have civil wars because the jew will jew more than what he is jewing now.

yes but wages come to natural equilibrium once it reaches certain point. Lets say 100 million illegals come to USA, they won't be able to drive wages to point of $0.1 because costs of living would be too high and they would naturally go back.
Problem is government is helping poor and it doesn't care if poor is illegal, so they are secured and will always get food and housing.
immigrant won't come to USA if will be able to barely survive and costs of living are too high.

At least what would help is that government gets rid of welfare for undocumented people.

>Problem is government is helping poor and it doesn't care if poor is illegal, so they are secured and will always get food and housing.
>immigrant won't come to USA if will be able to barely survive and costs of living are too high.
>At least what would help is that government gets rid of welfare for undocumented people.
All of this is correct. But it would be more effective to simply halt immigration and deport all illegals. So your OP question has been answered re: min wage. The problem is immigration. So /thread I guess.

lets say illegal comes to USA and works for $5 dollars and hour and minimum is $9 and people who work legaly for minimum wage can barely survive with rent, food and bills, how is illegal able to survive below minimum wage? Well government is chipping in and giving them welfare plus they work illegaly

>lets say illegal comes to USA and works for $5 dollars and hour and minimum is $9 and people who work legaly for minimum wage can barely survive with rent, food and bills, how is illegal able to survive below minimum wage? Well government is chipping in and giving them welfare plus they work illegaly
Yes, fuck government benefits for them and their anchor babies.

problem with halting immigration is fighting uphill battle, you constantly have to hire border control, you have to invest in huge bureaucracy to catch them prosecute them, and what would be more effective is just get rid of welfare and fine people who employ illegals, they wouldn't even dare coming because they won't be able to survive.

I think California is playing big role in enabling this huge problem.

Why not both?
But as you can see, we are not talking about how to stop immigration instead of why a mandatory legal increase in min wage is a fix or not. This is why I was trying to stay on topic so desperately. But yeah.. end the welfare shit. Prosecute employers who hire them. And reduce legal immigration greatly.

now*

You haven't addressed the importation of skilled workers via the visa system. Skilled visas holders push down wages for white collar coding, science, and engineering work based on corporations lobbying the gov't for cheap labor.

...

You'd never be able to repeal one Gov't jobs program (social services for non-Americans) without replacing it with another Gov't jobs program ( border control & E-verify), that's just the reality of US politics.

Why is bad to import skilled workers? If there is deficit they are imported.
Its not like someone imports 10 000 engineers and they employees have pool of engineers to bid for price. They import because they don't have enough, in contrary engineers inside USA would also bid with each other for lower wage without need to import skilled workers

You must understand that workers inside USA bid eachother for lower possible wage and empoloyees bid eachothers for highest paying wage.

His arguments aren’t exactly top notch but in general public healthcare and minimum wage are good things. Take a while to ponder that maybe he’s right.

Actually often there is an oversupply of highly skilled labor which results in huge problems. See for example the h1b visa fiasko in the US.

>h1b visa fiasko
can you give me quick run down.
Because if there are enough skilled workers in US they would bid each other for lower wage. I think it would be pain in ass for companies to import people

>public health care
The rich guys may not be able to afford it. The money has to come from somewhere, ostensibly taxes. The problem being that you suddenly have a glut of demand with nonquick change in supply, prices rise. Even if the rich guy could afford it before, they may not be able to afford the market shock. This leads to regulation of the medical sector, previously a sector of high status and good to great pay. Now useless government chimps soak up more money deciding how much money previously free-market services cost. Too high and the economy can’t sustain it, too low and desire and demand for doctors plummets, which will causes prices already unsustainable to rise as fewer doctors treat more patients.

There is a reason before Obamacare people with emergency needs and money for travel and lodging came to America for medical service, it was top notch and more importantly low wait times.
People still do medical tourism to America despite the nightmare tha t Obamacare was, but without change fewer people will aspire to be doctors and over time we will be. Stuck in the same muck as you cucks.

I hope this helps. If you can’t figure out minimum wage on your own you should probably kill yourself.

>Finland is 98% white
that's why it works over there

>anyone opposing minimum wage should get free healthcare
Wow, this thread is off to a great start.

Certain highly skilled jobs like lawers and software engineers are so ridiclously oversupplied that their unemployment rate is actually above the average population. A big contributor to this problem is that many if not most immigrants to the US work in these areas. You can look up videos on youtube about programmers who’ve been replaced by indian h1b workers. And that’s without even mentioning the scam that is the college system in US...

lel

but tell me why do they work? Only argument can be lower wages.
But if there is over supply in programmers and lawyers they would also bid eachother wage down. So it doesn't make sense to import .

Don't you think workers bid each other wages?

The "shortage" is created by companies advertising jobs with extremely high requirements Ph.D + 10 years as a Professional Engineer + 8 years designing carburetors for non-agricultural tractors etc. while offering a lowball for a bachelors salary 35k/yr then crying to the government that they can't hire qualified workers. The Gov't issues them a visa which they give to an Indian guy with a fresh bachelors and pay him 28k/yr because he'll be deported if he quits. America has many of the best universities on the planet and also huge populations of people working outside their degree field, because degreed Americans don't want to work full time in order to be paid little better than fast food wages.

Min wage transforms to also max wage

>wanting to be spoonfed arguments
Why not just give him pictures of your infographics?

I am not sure do I understand your post but odly enough it seems like high wages and high unemployment are possible at the same time. I don’t know the reason for it.

Checked and appreciated. Kinda sad so many responses got past that one.

but Indian with high degree in engineering won't also work to be paid as fast food worker.

If there was oversupply in skilled workers like engineers they would bid eachother price down, company doesn't give shit if you have degree or not, they only care that you make them profit and bring money. Only if government imposes regulation that you have to have degree.

But I sure companies would rather employee local enigneers than forigenrs if USA colleges are really better than Pajeet colleges.

If I was company I don't give shit if I will employee someone with degree in cleaning toilets if he brings me more money to table then some super qualified engineer who requires 300k a year and brings nothing.

Are american universities actually that good? Having looked at statistics they seem like a whole bunch of hot air at bachelors level.

Nobody should be forced to support another human being.
If that person cannot support themselves, that's called natural selection.
Just refuse the moralfaggotry, that is quite literally all he has.

No.. this is not price fixing .. not even wage ( price ) descrimination. It simply is a wage floor, a ceiling for the least paid in society if you consider businesses are in the business of making profit and streamlining financial efficiency.

18.27 is too high here, businesses struggle to turnover enough in the current climate to be able to afford workers.
If we lower the rate , like some banks have lobbied to have taxes lowered in return for higher employment, we will have a far more efficient society.
Imagine a tax break from not having to pay for those disgusting dole bludgers, all because market supply of jobs have increased.

Well, i never expected to see american education btfo any sort of european. A welcomed surprise indeed

I would bother to mock you if you didn’t decide to namefag
2/10 l2troll newfag

Can I move to Romania now?

>why doesn’t the company just commit a different crime and coerce a legal citizen to commit an unnecessary crime instead worrying about protecting your boarders so foreigners don’t commit crime by entering your nation?

That’s actually a really good question, user.

>I've been btfo
>here bro just watch this video
The absolute Fucking state of Croatia

$15 minimum wage is a myth. The real minimum wage is always $0. Raise the price of labour, companies will employ less people = unemployment. This is supply and demand.

It's perfectly reasonable to want to provide health care to the very poor. This can be done efficiently through means of private charity. This is not done by some retarded scheme where everyone is forced to buy shitty overpriced health insurance from the government and fined if they don't want it.

I'm so sorry you feel that way $7.50 an hour, one day you'll grow to be a big $15 man

...
One day...

...

Private charities don’t work. Why do you think public healthcare started?

...

Or was that 7.25?
Better count your shekels wisely burger..

Can you actually name any jobs which produce less than 15 dollars an hour? Isn’t it funny how productivity has steadily increased but wages haven’t.

Charities work a hell of a lot better than the government. Governments generally start programs to increase their power and control over voters.

Governments departments in charge of their own spending is never a good thing, ever. Civil servants suck with our tax money.
Governmenet beaurocracy, too many middle managers,foreigners expecting free translators to receive free treatements and the inability to take cash off non NHS tax paying people is crippling or NHS. Also on the wage front we are giving bursaries to train new Dr and nurses yet we won't pay the salaries they expect at the end of it so they go into private care or work abroad leaving us to pay cheap foreign labour as Dr and nurses.
Minimum wages have driven down wages from higher up to mean most skilled workers are now being paid less and sometimes on a par with imported shelf stacking Abduls and Arturs who can't comprehend modern working systems. Reducing everyone down to the same pay level to benefit the lowest end of society is never a good thing.

Faggot Aussie hiding behind a meme flag.

Jokes on you, I’m unemployed and homeless

Rok has a private charity system and they have one of the highest rates of poverty and prostitution in the developed world. Can you give me a single example of private charities working?

Fast food restaurant workers are a good example. The "revenue production" thing is bit oversimplified in the comic. Often it's a case of employing 5 people and a robot rather than 10.

Apparently Bill Gates saved 122,000,000 lives
theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/14/bill-gates-philanthropy-warren-buffett-vaccines-infant-mortality

Oh vey... I wonder who did that ?
Currently here on business, not permanent. Actually not a bad place apart from all the poor people and "bogans".

I didn't pluck that scenario out of the air, user. That was 2007 at a company I didn't work for after that.

>If there was oversupply in skilled workers like engineers they would bid each other price down
Engineers seeking non-enigneering jobs or leaving the workforce does reduce the supply some.
>government imposes regulation that you have to have degree
Competency testing for employment is racially discriminatory in America. Employers can ask about whether you have a degree and what its in, so they do that in lieu of asking people to prove they can do the work beforehand which is racist and illegal.
>companies would rather employee local enigneers
Some might, but reducing salary/benefits costs and employing minorities are both big draws.

I have no fucking idea where "Rok" is but in the UK at least the charity sector provides a lot of vital services for the homeless and other vulnerable people.

I’ve yet to see any evidence that fastfood workers don’t produce revenue above 15 dollars an hour. And even if they don’t that rather tells us that the whole fastfood industry isn’t profitable anymore.

Republic of korea. Rok is a common abreviation. Anyways, where is your evidence, you don’t need to give a link, just name a source.

I would like to add that profit margin is more important than revenue in this equation. But finland here is touching on the problems produced by a keynesian economic model. It essentially just skims production growth off the top and hands it over to the jews.

The NHS (UK's public healthcare system) has bankrupted 7 times since it's inception in 1948. But because they are the government, going bankrupt is essentially irrelevant except for the fact they waste millions vs. private health care whose focus is the bottom line.

Public health care systems tend to use antiquated techniques for advanced cases; Canada still uses osmium tetroxide as a chemotherapy agent.

All these countries with public health care still have PRIVATE health care systems; essentially functioning like health care here in America with Medicare/Medicaid. Ask any anonymous person in those countries and they'll tell you this:
>private health care is more efficacious
>private health care offers more treatment options
>private health care wait times are a *fration* of public health care wait times

Even if we did want to give money to the needy, it would be better to just create a tax and give it to them directly. Raising minimum wage will just make the giant corporations raise all of their prices, so the average person pays for the minimum wage increase anyway. The only difference between that and a tax is that increasing minimum wage means that what is essentially welfare money will be funneled though corporations... as if we need to be giving them more money.

Mexicans still come to US to work minimum wage. Niggers and poos even go to states like Emirates to work like slaves, because they earn more then in their own shitholes. So migrants will come even without social security, maybe less, but still.

Its worth mentioning that first wave migration in Germany for example were migrant workers, leftist were mostly against them then as they lowered the wages. But as migrants reached number when they could be useful as voters, left started pandering to them.

As for healthcare, there is no developed country where healthcare is 100% private, USA spends almost as much public funds on it as Europe, yet they still need to pay for it later. So it apparently doesn't work outside ancap theories.

BWAHAHAHAHA of course he did, oy vey

Will there be no one wanting to scoop up all the idle frustrated labor and take over an industry? Maybe class warfare and remove bagel is a preferred option to being leashed forever.

>> so called higher education
>> g-guys h-how do I tell him he's wrong

Kill yourself brainlet.

>Use ten times more money on private than public healthcare.
>Wonder why private is marginally better.