Why is she so evil?

Why is she so evil?

Because all the 'good' alignment characters in F/A are insufferable cunts.

>that tragic chest
Rebelling against the universe that cursed her with such a disappointing form?

>Archercat
>Evil

In Nasu's world, "Evil" refers to personality and isn't necessarily an indicator of moral or ethical standing. This is also why Gilgamesh is "Good".

Because she killed all the men that lost to her in the footrace for her hand.

...

What the fuck do good and evil stands for then exactly?

Generally, "Good" is someone who stands on the side of humanity while "Evil" is someone who doesn't. While someone who is "Evil" may like certain humans or groups of humans, the ultimate fate of the human race, for good or for ill, doesn't really matter to them.

Gilgamesh is a peculiar case because even though he tried to release All the World's Evil onto humanity, fundamentally, he is on humanity's side, and from his viewpoint, what he was doing was for the sake of the human race. Although he may treat humanity callously, he will never abandon it.

'Nasu had a good stockpile of crystal meth when he was writing this' and 'Nasu was crashing hardcore and wrote whatever as fast as he could so he could go re-up at Kojima's' respectively.

I want to pet her.

>so he could go re-up at Kojima's' respectively
Explain further.

Willingly worked with a-class asshat Jason in spite of being smart enough to know better. Also, a closet redo.

...

Same goes for literally all the argonauts. She was smart enough to jump ship when she realized it was bullshit, at least.

fuck off Medea, Jason is a hero

How does a berserker job so hard against a saber? It just doesn't make sense. At least put up a bit of a fight.

I don't get it.

How does a 3rd rate Servant losing to a 1st rate Servant not make sense?

Read her legend.

Weakest Servant summoned by the weakest Master against a goddamn Knight of the Round Table.

Because F/A is the most badly written piece of shit since Twilight.

Seriously, My Immortal is a better self-insert fanfic than this because Enoby, unlike Sieg, is funny by accident once in a while.

Fran is weak.

I know this is sometimes hard to see given how plain they are compared to other Servants, but the Knights of the Round Table are basically top tier among Heroic Spirits, well above the average,

>how does a knight of the round table beat fucking frankenstien.

I sure do wonder.

Fran is on par or weaker than most of the servants in Iskandar's reality marble.

You mean SHIT
I have her fgo and she's dead weight at level 50

Bad powerbalancing - the hallmark of a shitty fighting series aimed at teenage boys.

how well she do in f/a? does she die like a loser?

Gets willingly possessed by Jack's cursed spirits. Then put down by Achilles.

Berserker is a shit tier class and Fran is a shit tier servant. Berserker is also THE premier jobber class
though that's probably her best class

i have her too is she really dead weight? cause her buster damage is shit. pretty much use her as a NP. since i don't have any good 4 stars cause i have E luck with summoning servants.

well shit.

But the hallmark of shitty fighting series is dragging on fights as much as possible. Not having it be a stomp.

it's a story, people are allowed to be of varying levels of "power"

Should have been a Saber. Run that tomboy over with her hate train.

Are the full bio sheets anywhere?

How does that hack Shakespeare die?

>not even getting possessed by best Jack

I bet she didn't even get a cool spy watch or anything like that.

He dies when the Hanging Gardens crash after everyone else dies. A pretty happy death for him, since he got to see the story through till the end.

Yeah but nobody should be allowed to be outclassed by literally everyone except the assassins.

Not everyone can be Heracles.

At least she was happy knowing that someone would feel sad over her death.

>Although he may treat humanity callously, he will never abandon it
No wonder he and Rin are compatible.
They're both tsun as fuck

>how does a knight win over someone who isn't a knight in an RPG codified by stodgy old farts who regarded knights, especially sword-wielding knights, as the best thing ever and everyone else as trash
gee. I can't imagine how.

Motherfucker.

But not everyone has to be Sasaki Koujiro either

Gilgamesh isn't tsun. He makes no pretenses. He loves humanity, but hates what it's become in the modern age. He considers it revolting. His actions in Fate/stay night are fundamentally about restoring humanity back onto the proper path.

Even though he is on humanity's side, that doesn't mean he condones everything humanity does. He's not Angra Mainyu.

Why?

1 character is hardly everyone. Most people in apoc are on the upper end of things. It's just that Fran is pretty far on the lower end.

It's a shame that during their interactions in the sequels, Angra has never tried to lord over the fact that he covered Gil in his disgusting black splooge.

Gil is basically the original Trump. He just wants to Make Humanity Great Again.

Well there are other examples like Shakespeare who isn't even that great in his single role as support.

Every servant should at least be worth using.

It makes no sense for anyone even who's not a complete artist to go out of their way to find catalysts for such terrible servants.

>Hero from actual legends versus a shitty monster built from pieces of humans

>Kills innocents in the novel, who aren't involved with the war
>Rages against Jannu because she won't let murderers go free, even when its clear that they'll keep killing
>Blows up people who get near her apples in recent event.
>lures Spartacus to Jeanne and forces them to fight, because she's tired of fighting him.

>People still gotta meme "B-but she likes kids, she CAN"T be evil, I'm an alignment expert. Only the goals should matter for alignment, not their actions regarding their goals"

Pretty evil

Gil was affected by the mud, I don't care how much he pretences that he didn't he clearly was. Even if all it did was turn off his inhibition and make him go full "I'll fix humanity by weeding out the wheat from the chaff en mass in the most decisive fashion I can"

Gilgamesh wasn't affected by the mud. His added excitability was caused by him incarnating in the modern age. Gilgamesh is someone who is greatly influenced by his surroundings. The reason he's easier to get along with in Fate/EXTRA CCC is because the Far Side is far more agreeable to him.

From Gilgamesh's point of view, the modern world is a hopeless, meaningless trash heap filled with the most worthless mongrels imaginable. The Grail Mud had nothing to do with it and everything to do with the extremely high standards he puts humanity to.

>lures Spartacus to Jeanne and forces them to fight, because she's tired of fighting him.
This is pretty fair though Spartacus is a monster

Frankenstein isn't useless though, she has powerful magic resistance and also incredible mana regen, especially for a berserker. The latter is basically her main gimmick, but it's useless in the context of Apocrypha because both sides have massive mana batteries to draw from.

>It makes no sense for anyone even who's not a complete artist to go out of their way to find catalysts for such terrible servants.

I mean, most good catalysts were either hidden away, guarded or fucked in apoc's timeline. Sometimes you need to make do.

And on top of that there was a narrative purpose. Rider fighting Mordred was a fight, even if it was one sided. When Fran came on it was a slaughter, and it really showed how fucking scary she, and by extension knights of the round table are. It's an interesting narrative element, before she'd just been cool and stomped things we didn't like, this time she was bullying characters that they'd built an attachment to you with. There was something unsettling, even scary about it, and that was cool. Especially considering we'd typically been rooting for her and now (excluding people who just really dislike sieg) you're rooting against her.

It's too out of character from his later on characterisation, him being affected is the only way I can ever acknowledge things like his FGO characterisation. Sure maybe he wasn't affected like most people would be, but he was. Nothing else makes any sense. His logic was fucking gibberish as fuck. Which makes perfect sense if he has a screw loose, but makes none at all if he doesn't.

Jack and Astolfo are the only character I give a shit about in Apocrypha. They should just have their own show.

Galvanism isn't magic resistance even if it can function like it with most "normal" magecraft. It wouldn't work with Rin's icicle gem spears for instance since it's tangible, but it would work with her wind gems

Everything in the Nasuverse is gibberish user. The biggest problem with UBW and Fate on the whole is that characters go on long monologues about concepts that they don't actually know, or are actively lying about.

They're high tier, but only maybe three of them at most are top tier. Top tier are all cheat class characters. Gilgamesh, Ishtar, Kingprotea, Arthur, Karna, Ozymandias, BB, King Hassan, maybe Alcidies.

You get into cheat class characters, and its a world of difference between high tier characters. You had two of the knights of round together decide fighting Passionlip was probably impossible and have to run away in CCC event. Even when they eventually had a rematch, it took four or five servants and someone who had equivalent EX rank strength to hold her down for a bit.

Top knights are Arthur and Galahad so far. Bedivere was basically equivalent to a normal guy among the rounds, but he was smart. Hard to guage where Agravain is, but he beat Lancelot, even if he said it was probably a once in a lifetime thing.

Eh, for the most part it explores what it wants to explore and it's all fine and dandy. Gil is the only real hole in the whole thing. And it can be filled in if we take the grail mud to have affected him like alcohol affects most people. It lets you do stuff you want to deep down, but everything else stops you from doing it.

Well Archer Gil is from the period between child and Caster Gil. So Enkidu has recently died so he's sperging pretty hard about how great he is in spite of his failure to save his friend and his unwillingness to take responsibility and actually rule Uruk. In FSK, when he and Enkidu meet up, the conversation eventually has Gil admit that his younger self would utterly despise him

Its pretty clear Gilgamesh in FSN was written just to be a foil for the protaganists, who's character changed per route to match the one he had to fight against.

Nasu saying he was corrupted slightly by his human blood later on was just him fixing things a bit, by saying FSN Gilgamesh was abnormal, and CCC and Babylon Gilgamesh is the true Gilgamesh.

Its not too hard to figure out once you think meta for a moment, Fate was never meant to be a long running series. Once the story kept going, they eventually had to slightly change Gilgamesh's character in order to actually be a character. Plus Nasu really liked Urobutchi's characterization in Zero. So he altered him a bit.

Top knights of the Round Table are Altria and Lancelot. Altria wasn't as skilled as Lancelot, but back in her prime, her multitude of Noble Phantasms made up for it.

Galahad wasn't exactly the most skilled knight, but his character was highly praised. His Noble Phantasm is extremely powerful, but wouldn't have necessarily allowed him to contend with Altria and Lancelot in their strongest states.

All the guys she killed for losing a foot races against her, I imagine.

Also, she's a Greek hero. They're all evil to one extent or another.

For sure, but there were hints there still even in FSN. Mostly his brief appearance in HF.

My alcohol comparison works all too well as well, his deceleration that he's not affected is him going "I'm not drunk!"

I never got how Herc only had a B in Mad Enhancement. He went nuts loads of times

>So Enkidu has recently died so he's sperging pretty hard about how great he is in spite of his failure to save his friend
All signs point to Archer Gil being Gilgamesh from when Enkidu was around mostly, during their glory days. Because in CCC Gil says as soon as Enkidu died Gilgamesh went through a huge shift as a person, losing all pride and dignity and roaming the earth searching for some way to be immortal, he was more than desperate, he'd probably be berserker.

He couldn't have been his prideful self after Enkidu died. Directly after being a wild man who lived without bathing constantly searching for a way to keep living, he obtained wisdom after a snake stole his shit, and became his caster self. Even if he has the memories of Enkidu dying, it definitely seems to be a younger self.

>Galahad wasn't exactly the most skilled knight, but his character was highly praised.

That's not what was said IIRC, the way it was said was more "his skill wasn't what REALLY stood out, it was his character" which could mean that his character outshone his skill.

Also it doesn't really matter what any of us think becuase Arthurian legend is fucking clear on the matter and literally writes "Galahad has a sword better than Excalibur, the best shield in the world and is completely uncorruptable and is the greatest knight evar, lancelot agreed don't bother him about it."

I suspect Galahad only being hinted at and vaguely talked about is intentional to either keep the reveal for something specific and some real shit, or to never have to reveal him.

Consider that I can quite easily, without having to do ANY digging beyond surface level reading. Justify him having 3 EX Noble Phantasms.

Mad Enhancement was a mistake. It just makes Herc, Lu Bu, Darius, and Lancelot look like chumps for not being able to speak coherently since Nasu and Pals realized that characters are more marketable if you actually let them talk.

I don't agree but yeah it's weird how servants can be "younger" selves, but still have their full history.

As stated, everything has to do with the era he's summoned in and the stage in life he's summoned from. Gilgamesh changes very drastically depending on the circumstances.

And his logic makes sense from his viewpoint. Modern humanity is shit, so he'll cover the world in All the World's Evil. The ones that survive are the ones that are fit for him to rule. The ones that die never deserved to live in the first place.

In Unlimited Blade Works, Gilgamesh explains his reasoning to Shinji. In his time, there were no worthless human beings, but in the modern era, it's infested with them. The implication here is that not in a million years would he have ever considered pulling an act like this back in his time. However, the current era, from his point of view, is so filthy that cleansing is necessary. Because Gilgamesh is able to give context based on his behavior back when he was alive, it shows a very clear difference between the Gilgamesh of the past and the Gilgamesh incarnated in the present.

Gilgamesh was never affected by the Grail mud, and your insistence that he was doesn't change the fact. Readers are free to their own interpretations, but if you're outright disregarding a direct statement in the original text, then your interpretation will inevitably lose weight.

this cat should stop feeding bullshit to kiyohime in teh chat

Original Arthurian legend isn't really relevant here. Nasu basically picked and chose what aspects of the Matter of Britain he wanted to adapt. Since there are a hundred different interpretations, with 80% of them being added on by the French, he's free to do that.

Galahad's Noble Phantasm is Lord Camelot, a giant shield. The strongest Holy Sword is Excalibur, no ifs, ands or buts.

>In Unlimited Blade Works, Gilgamesh explains his reasoning to Shinji. In his time, there were no worthless human beings, but in the modern era, it's infested with them. The implication here is that not in a million years would he have ever considered pulling an act like this back in his time. However, the current era, from his point of view, is so filthy that cleansing is necessary. Because Gilgamesh is able to give context based on his behavior back when he was alive, it shows a very clear difference between the Gilgamesh of the past and the Gilgamesh incarnated in the present.

His entire line of reasoning was "there's too many people" It's not sane logic. and FSN isn't exactly the most reliable narration considering the narrator contradicts himfucking self all the damn time.

Here here!

You are severely misinterpreting his words if that's what you took from it.

The number of people isn't the issue. It's the fact that humanity has lost its brilliance. It's not about quantity, but quality.

To be honest Nasu never thought about marketing F/SN as a huge commercial success while writing the visual novel. Fuck, he had to include sex scenes just to get it to sell. Mad enhancement makes a ton of sense in universe but if you want to market characters on a shitty phone game of course they'll retcon that for the $$$.

>Galahad's Noble Phantasm is Lord Camelot, a giant shield. The strongest Holy Sword is Excalibur, no ifs, ands or buts.

So then why is he so coy about Galahad? throughout the entire of FGO and even during Camelot where you could expect to get something regarding him, it was basically skirted around. We barely know any more than we did during Fuyuki.

You don't be so secretive without a purpose.

Kintoki is still aces though.

He effectively says "back in my day there weren't so many people, so if one guy died then we all noticed. But now a million people could die and the world would barely blink an eye" He's very fixated on the number of people. He spends more time talking about that than he does saying anything positive about people in the past.

I know servants can change part of their look on summon to fit era and shit, but why did he decided to look like a fucking american gansters?

They're enacting the role of their younger self at the moment, no matter what they remember they're still bound by their role. They're bound to act out the foolishness of their younger self, and interpret everything in the way their young self would even if they have the same info. Its like Gilles and Gilles. Servants are just stories, you can turn back the pages on them and they're back to a certain point, even if the book is already complete. Point of Fate is that stories give power to people of the current era, and stories must stack their power as a concept against other stories. If a servant is famous for different things in their life, different periods of their life, may as well treat them as different people. Like Liz and Carmilla

Dunno. Maybe Nasu still has plans.

One thing that's very odd about Galahad is that we don't really know much about his relationship with his King. Even though Saber trusted Galahad enough to grant him the power of the the Round Table as a Noble Phantasm, to the point where out of all her trusted knights, HE was the one she sent to obtain the Holy Grail, we don't really know much about how they regarded each other. All we know is that Galahad's death is a tremendous source of grief for Saber, alongside countless others.

>that little Lancelot
i want one.

An inferior fake to the true silver Sakata Gintoki.

the point it fewer people they worked harder and be better, more people the load spreads out.

also due to tech advancentment is the reason why (unless is some bullshit like the casters cause everyone that wrote a book is fucking caster) current era is the most unfit to create heroes

I used to think that f/sn, f/ha, f/extra had pretty interesting stories. It was the nasu kind obscure magic with some twists like tsukihime and knk was. But at this point it feels like the fate series devolved into "cool fights and waifus".
But I guess that's what going mainstream means.

It's worth pointing out that, I suspect they won't randomly rewrite the entire myth. Which means that they have no idea what actually happened. They don't realise Galahad didn't so much "die" as he chose to go to heaven at that time. As all saber said is "he died in the line of duty"

It's been left ambiguous for a very long time. And considering Galahad is in many ways the answer to Arthurian myth, I suspect he's had a plan for him from the start. Or at least an idea about what he would be.

So Chaotic vs Lawful in Tactic Ogre / Ogre Battle?

>But at this point it feels like the fate series devolved into "cool fights and waifus".
That's what happens when something gets too popular and more writers are allowed into the series.

Kintoki is glam to the gills with a grade schooler (modern) tier understanding of what is cool. So very flashy, expensive, and sort of chintzy. Kids love him because he is "cool," therefore, thrust into the modern era, he will instinctively do what he can to embody what "cool" currently is

Kintoki doesn't.

>Still okay after a point blank kamikaze noble phantasm boosted by command spell and master mana.
Yeah fuck off with this garbage writing.

Would you want the novel version of being teleported away by a command seal?

Other people have said the novel version also had her tank it with the help of a Command Spell.

Is that in the novel? Why didn't they show that?

Gilgamesh is a hero, Saber herself admits this at the end of Fate route. Its just that his definition of helping people is too chaotic, which is why he's chaotic good.

If you ever read Babylon FGO you'll know why he was a hero beloved by his people in life. Its just that Archer Gilgamesh is not the Gilgamesh that represents his wise self after growing as a person.

Gilgamesh's entire legend is that there's a king stronger than anyone but foolish and dickish, they give him a friend and he mellows out a bit, his friend whom he considered an equal died which made him realize his own mortality, so he goes mad trying to find a way to be immortal, and at the end of the story he loses immortality but gains wisdom.

That's still just about quality though. One person then is worth more than one person now. In order to make people become less idle and actually show their value, he will put humanity through an apocalypse so that only the best can survive.