Super vs Z

Hello Sup Forums,

Today, my friend said to me that Dragon Ball Super was better than Dragon Ball Z. Now, because I'm a decent human being, I told him to shut the fuck up. But I have one flaw: I don't know how to express the differences. But I do know that Super is far worse than Z.
Goku is a literal retard in Super. My friend says that that's Goku's nature, and that he wasn't portrayed 'naturally' (relaxed, at ease, not bearing responsibility) in Z because he had to save everyone.
He also brings forth the overly forced character development of Roshi (overcoming his pervyness), but how do I say that it really is overly forced?
And what are some general differences between Z and Super?
And maybe some general arguments for my case

Call him an autistic retard who should probably kill himself then get new friends.

Super has a lot more in common with original DB and lacks the 12-year old edgy appeal of Z. It is therefore better and your friend is right and you are wrong.

>shit taste of this caliber exists

>implying Super is anywhere near the comedy of original DB
>or DB's cleverness or characters can even be compared to Super

Why the fuck would you even bother arguing with an idiot? Just tell him he's a fucking idiot and leave it at that.

Z is worse than Super. Its pure nostalgia that makes you like Z and hate Super, which is why you can't formulate good counterarguments to his points.
Super has better pacing both in terms of arc lenghts and fight lenghts. Z had 300+ episodes and only 4 cannon arcs, while Super already before ep 100 have had 4-5 whole arcs already. Fights in Z were dragged out with too many stand offs and reused battleanimations/gifs. Goku vs Frieza alone took more than 4 hours. In Super they do drag it a bit out, but not nearly Z level.
-Z fans love Frieza and claim he is an awesome villain, while characters like Zamasu are lame. All Z villains were only a stronger version of the last but with better regenerative abilities etc. In Super they have more variation in abilities, not just strenght. Supers villains dont just destroy planets cuz muh evil (except Beerus and Frieza). Zamasu amd Goku black had a motive, and a plan that wasn't simply destroy planets, but a genocidql and hatefull plan.
- List goes on

>Zamasu amd Goku black had a motive
I hope your remember this motive. Even I know that that whole 'mortals fight theyre disgusting lets kill them because hypocracy doesnt exist' was bullshit beyond belief.

>Its pure nostalgia that makes you like Z and hate Super, which is why you can't formulate good counterarguments to his points.
It's not nostalgia. I finished Z half a year ago. That's because I was busy watching Naruto first. And I cant formulate good counterarguments because I'm simply shit at it.

>reused battleanimations/gifs
So you want to get to Naruto level filler?

> Naruto level filler
It's better with some filler than fights where barely anything happens for multiple episodes and i forget whats going on, just like OP anime currently operates

> Zamasu killing mortals
Not saying best reason ever, but at least he had some backstory making him hate them. But what truly made them special was the mystery behind who Goku Black was, because it kept me guessing, and it was brutal

Tell him to get some taste

>but at least he had some backstory making him hate them
He would have been a better character if they just said that Zamasu got into a fight with Lord Kai and killed all mortals as revenge.

>the mystery behind who Goku Black was
The literal only option of someone who agrees with the batshit insane and more-retarded-than-Goku motives of Zamasu. Such a mystery. You dont even need to have watched Detective Conan to figure that out.

>12 year old edgy appeal of Z

You know what people in 80s and 90s loved about DB and DBZ? Interesting story and fantastic animations during fights and what original DB and most of DBZ brought. I loved DB and DBZ for being mature and not being afraid of going over the edge, like killing teammate and friends of Goku, even killing MC and showing life of Goku and his family.

I haven't watched Super yet, but from what my friends are saying it's not the same thing as old DB franchise, well Goku hasn't changed, but others did.

Also, we like GT now.

Z seems to have some iconic characters and kinda interesting development. There's also Gohan hype, next generation and almost all characters seemed to matter any bit. The development and powerlevels got to a state where doing it any more would just seem abusing and stupid. Thats where Super popped the bubble.
Super just squeezes even more the typical formula, abuses tournaments (cus it fans' favorite arcs), recycling antagonists that fans like, stupid power scales that stop making sense, meh characters, all the action seems to be just around Goku and Vegeta cus they outscaled everyone and not the others seem like shit figurants for comical relief, upgrading everything with multi universe shit ("now theres an upgraded dragon", "now theres an upgraded tournament", "now theres an upgraded god", "now theres an upgraded transformation").

Every fucking arc is the same:
>goku loses
>goku trains
>his powerlevel now is infinite+1
>goku keeps losing
>All humanity in risk
>lol i wasnt serious
>goku keeps losing
>lol now im gonna show all i got
>goku keeps losing
>All humanity very close to perish
>lmao I just love fighting, dont you? Lets fight with all our max power and have fun
>goku wins
>next arc, new villain
>goku loses
Keep Loopin

Super is completely shit compare to DBZ.
-Super storys are retarded
-You can skip arcs and still unterstand the story.
-Power Level is random

Go watch Rick and Morty

>Rick and Morty
Better than Super at being entertaining, if I dare say.

Got ya senpai

DB GT (whit the exception of the first arc), is much better than Super

>whit
Did you have a mini seizure while typing that?

Kai is better than Z

Well, that depends
I'd say the fights in Kai are better given how they're shortened and lack some filler, but the Saiya-Jin training arc in Z is a worthwhile addition.
I'm not sure if Kai included this (still haven't watched Cell despite watching Saiya-Jin and Freeza arcs and all of Buu in Kai), but Z also had a filler moment that was pretty nice in the final Kamehameha clash between Cell and Gohan, where all the normal warriors try to attack Cell before Vegeta uses all of his energy to land a distracting blow on Cell.

More or less.

Just remembered this, Kai is also missing Unmei no Hi ~Tamashii tai Tamashii~ in the final battle, only know this because I wanted to see if I should buy Season 4 right away or not, because I just love that song. The Bardock shit in the first episode is also pretty pointless

Dragon Ball Super is for babies compared to Dragon Ball Z which was already for young children. It has no blood or death in the fights, even in the tournament where you will supposedly be erased from existence for losing you are not allowed to kill.

You sound like a massive manchild, learn to accept other people's opinions and asking us for arguments is even beyond pathetic because it means you can't even come up with reasons to like something yourself

>but how do I say that it really is overly forced?

Are you 12?
Are you seriously asking us to explain your own personal opinion?

fpbp