Remonday

Speaking of which, I haven't heard from Remon lately. Does anyone know what he's up to?

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rem a cute

Rem's chest is always growing. Remember when she was just a little larger than her sister? She's basically a mini Priscilla at this point.

Everyday until Remon returns

>ram is flat

I'm pretty sure even Garfiel has bigger tits than that.

Anyhow, I'm being serious here. Rem definitely didn't have those tits in her earlier art. They've definitely expanded.

I was rewatching the anime and only just noticed that it was ram who cut subaru's leg off in episode 8. why did she attack him, knowing that it would lead to rem torturing/interrogating? I'd always assumed that she just killed him to spare rem from having to, after she'd determined that there was no way to resolve things peacefully. isn't ram trying to keep rem from further dirtying her hands? why give rem an opportunity to do just that?

not episode 8, episode 7. and this is definitely ram's magic.

Ram isn't always the easiest to understand. It's clear she made her own judgement calls. Rem actually beat Subaru unconscious multiple times before Ram killed him. In short, Ram only killed him after she was sure Rem wasn't going to get anything from him.

ram is the character I've had the hardest time figuring out, and that includes the likes of the witches. some of the things she does feel so contradictory, and then she becomes completely different after rem gets potatoed. I can't wait for tappei to finish LN arc 4 so he can get on with arc 6 which has more ram and arc 7 which will probably partially feature ram and rem.

When it comes to figuring out, I tend to skim by on what I see as surface detail. Which isn't what everyone else sees that way. Ram was a character born to great responsibility, regarded as a new god and treated like an adult. As a child, she ended up with a mixed attitude where she expected such treatment to continue, but also seems to secretly enjoy being treated as a child. As she grows older, she is quite brash about her laziness. Like she actually wants to appear irresponsible. It's certainly better than looking like a cripple.

That's another point. Ram doesn't like looking vulnerable. Even in Arc 6, she'll go on about how she only came along to watch Rem for Subaru, so he could actually get shit done without worrying. Transparent bullshit like that. She only acts sincere when pushed, and gets embarrassed any time someone takes note of her showing genuine concern for Subaru. All in all, we can infer that Ram is full of shit. Her brash attitude is fake. Ram is actually more reserved with her feelings and easily embarrassed than Rem is. She simply fakes otherwise.

In short, Rem and Ram are twins. I could probably go on, but I wouldn't mind your input.

Ugh we really nedd more nformation about OVA

I'm just gonna address ghis last par we just to agree to disagree since this has gone long enough.

1st, that scene was new nothing like, it happened in WM. 2nd, we have already a bunch off screen deaths in WN. 3rd, Frederica and Petra never died brutally together in the loop before this one only Petra does in both versions. Frederica never dies in front front of Subaru thoughout the entire arc in the WN either, it's just mentioned or implied. Lastly that scene served a twofold purpose to showcase Beatrice's death which was moved here from last loop where it happend reintroduced Meili in story properly. Obivious to me just like in WN Tappei is avoiding showing same characters dying over and over again because it is repeative.

Everyone's chest is always growing.

>what did ram think of being considered the reincarnation of the oni god by her people? how did she feel about losing that power? I can imagine that she enjoyed her power, but felt guilty because it alienated rem. and she maybe felt relieved that she no longer made rem feel like trash, but also didn't want rem to have to take the burden of being her "horn." in the remless continuity, she probably felt happier about her power which ties into her feeling able to freely love her village without resenting them, and losing everything made her focus on revenge. but that's all speculation and conjecture, and I could be completely wrong.

>I think that ram wants rem to be happy, and is well aware that rem can't be happy with just ram, but doesn't want to admit that she can't make rem happy by herself. before subaru came, she had rem to herself, but they probably weren't all that close. they probably did their superficial "nee-sama, nee-sama, remu, remu" routine and talked a lot and stuff, but not about anything actually important. which was probably a mixture of ram not wanting to involve her imouto in gospel keikaku and trying to keep rem from becoming more bloodthirsty and messed up, and from rem's worship of her. "nee-sama's so amazing, almost like an angel, and angels are meant to be untouchable."

1/2

...

>I also think ram was fully aware of how distant they'd become, but unwilling to acknowledge it, so she never brought it up, while rem didn't realize what was happening. she hates the status quo but she doesn't want anything to change. hence her simultaneous resentment and appreciation of subaru. he's stealing rem and forcing her to change, but he's forcing her to change and making her happy.

2/2

I wrote this a few threads ago. I'd love to be able to read the WN version of early ram scenes, they probably don't reveal too much more than the LN/anime. I agree that ram's arrogance is entirely fake, and she even says that "the red oni could only rely on others to hold him up". the line about tearing her horn off before it could further inconvenience the blue oni also seems to reference rem's treatment by the oni village. so ram's probably felt like shit her entire life, first for causing rem so much angst, then for forcing everything on rem. but as long as rem relies on her emotionally, she can bear it, or something. then rem vanishes.

>Frederica never dies in front front of Subaru
I suppose I should reread it to see if he finds her corpse. I recall at least one body on the table, though I think that was Petra.
>Obivious to me just like in WN Tappei is avoiding showing same characters dying over and over again because it is repeative.
That's not really my experience. He's been plenty willing to show bodies. I'd rather he didn't get corpse-shy now. Each is a new scene of horror.
>1st, that scene was new nothing like, it happened in WM
It replaced other scenes. Those scenes it replaced were better.

...

Not Ram's.
>they probably don't reveal too much more than the LN/anime.
I'm trying to remember if there were any significant differences, but it's been awhile. I think Subaru being a bit more of a dick came into play in their interactions, and he may have initially had a lower impression of her than in the LN. Well, calling her a shittier version of Rem kind of implies that already.

>>Frederica never dies in front front of Subaru
>I suppose I should reread it to see if he finds her corpse. I recall at least one body on the table, though I think that was Petra.
he finds her corpse guarding rem's door, but elsa never kills her in front of him.

Shoddy knockoff of MeguMonday

Yes. That's it. That was good. I never said anything about people dying in front of him, but I like the stories that corpse-scenes tell. Dying in front of Rem's room is good. It's like finding Ram's corpse in her negligee and with her makeup applied funerary style, to make it more lifelike.

That was good. Ram didn't need to die in front of him. The body is enough.

>That's not really my experience. He's been plenty willing to show bodies. I'd rather he didn't get corpse-shy now. Each is a new scene of horror.

He avoided show Freddie and Petra's cospse the first loop, and Freddie's death at hands of Elsa in WN.

Yet still he showed Subaru getting his ass eaten out, Garfiel's brutal slaughter of the villagers which tons of corpses. Roswaal killing in front Subaru and even had things like Subaru getting heavly wounded or getytng his eye stabbed out all in the LN He isn't corpse shy fot shit.

>It replaced other scenes. Those scenes it replaced were better.

That's debateble but it's neither or there. The point is that it's happened in WN. Subaru can't be around see single person die all the time nor is it important to see every single death or injury. Tappei understands that less is more sometimes.

wait before this discussion ends I want to give my own LN rant. my main gripe is still the cut intermission after chapter 79. I'd been hoping that it had been moved, and I'm still kind of hoping that it'll be in v15 or something, because with endgame in mind, it's a pretty vital scene. the drawbacks of minerva's authority are almost certain relevant to future plot point, and setting it up now will make the reveal of those plot points smoother.

>Minerva: “Fatigue, or whatever kind of invisible blah I really couldn't be bothered about. I heal wounds. So it shortens the life span of the world or whatever, not like that's my problem.”
is a very telling line, and sets arc 6 chapter 30 up to paint minerva and echidna as having completely opposing ideologies. the intermission also gives very many smaller details. typhon barely uses her authority to any of it's potential, and only cares about judging the guilty. despite being the most inhuman seeming witch, daphne is good at getting to the heart of the matter, which seems to reference how gluttony is the only fatal sin. carmilla is the only one to ask about echidna being despite acting like she hates (and probably actually hating) all the other witches. on their own, they're not the most necessary scenes since they don't move the plot forward, but cutting that whole chapter lost a lot of material.

(you)
>While the tea party between witches does preserves its kind of equilibrium, the attendants here are still all people with egotistic dispositions. More often than not they fail to see eye-to-eye with each other, and that the conversation turns into spats like this is nothing rare.
>Minerva gets mad, Sekhmet entertains her conversation, Daphne comes in with teasing, Camilla soothes Typhon so that she doesn't explode, Echidna watches on happily from aside—and Satella watches over them, smiling at the safety of the six others.
>Those were the days from four hundred years ago, never to come again.
>Satella went mad from the witch factor, Minerva died insane in a trap, Camilla burned to nothing in a great fire, Daphne wasted to death in a sea of sand, Typhon drowned in a flood, Sekhmet fell down the Great Cascade as she decimated the Dragon, Echidna gathered their souls and yet remains bound to the present world in soul only.

all that foreshadowing aside, the intermission also says volumes about the friendship between the witches. the slice of life atmosphere in this chapter feels almost off putting if you remember what they witches are. most of the witches don't get along too well due to their single-minded nature, but they seem to generally consider each other friends and bantz with each other. they're probably the only ones who can really understand each other.

(you)
and as a massive donafag, I really wish they hadn't cut this.
>This was an imperfect reproduction of those forever-gone days.
>Camilla: “Y-you look, sad... Echidna-chan. You look, very... sad.”
>Echidna: “Hm? There's no reason at all for me to be sad. You're here, and I get my chances to interact with the outside. —No necessity, at all.”
>Camilla: “A-are, you... okay, with that? We're... w-we're just, souls, so... we're not, really us. We're... mm, al-already... dead. There i-isn't, anyone... really with, you... Echidna-chan.”
at this point, echidna has revealed her true nature. she's manipulative and emotionally distant, whether it be from the 400 years, because she was always like that, or because she'd split her soul/memories/empathy into different vessels. even cold and scheming as she is, she wants the company of her friends, the other witches of sin. and this isn't even a necessarily donafag thing, since she's obviously going to be a very major character, and showing different sides to her early on like this does a lot for setting up her role in the future. without this scene, everything she's said about hating the witch of envy for killing her friends sounds insincere. echidna's friendship with the witches is a vital part of her character; she's witch of greed, and while her greed is primarily directed toward knowledge, I'm sure there's another greedy part of her that's too sentimental to let friends/happy tea party days disappear. removing the intermission misses out on revealing a lot about her.

he also showed felt and rom's bodies in the first vol. thinking tappei doesn't sudden show corpses in the LN is ridiculous he's never shown a body every time even in the WN

I'm disappointed that they cut it, that was one of my favorite scenes. frederica being in front of rem's door is very telling her character, even though she's not even alive. to me, learning that she'd died protecting rem solely out of a sense of duty said almost as much as about her as her dream of creating a future for sanctuary. subaru's mistrust of her being proven wrong said a lot about his mental state at the time and gives another dimension to every lesson he's learned and will learn on friendship and rely on others in arc 4, which is a very major theme of the arc (is this before or after fhrend? I can't quite remember).

>Petra's cospse the first loop
Pretty sure that was a reveal in the WN. You avoid showing it just to show it later.
>nor is it important to see every single death or injury. Tappei understands that less is more sometimes.
And sometimes less is less. A good scene with a corpse is a good scene with a corpse.
> thinking tappei doesn't sudden show corpses in the LN
Oh, I know he's kept all the corpse scenes from Arcs 1 to 3. I'd bitch and moan if Ram's prettied up corpse had been cut from the LN. It's in. Which is good. It should be in.
>he's never shown a body every time even in the WN
Whoever said he did? But he's showed them sometimes, and there's value to those scenes.

>Ram's corpse in her negligee and with her makeup applied funerary style, to make it more lifelike.
>Ram's prettied up corpse had been cut from the LN.
wait, when was this? I can't remember it.

Arc 3. It's also in the manga. Subaru's searching through the manor after breaking in through the window, I believe, and he finds Ram's corpse positioned as if she's asleep in bed. She almost looks like she's alive, and he gets some of her lipstick on her fingers before it all sinks in. I thought that was a really good scene that gave a glimpse into the kind of relationship the two sisters had, and how Rem handles the death of her sister.

This is when Rem is out dead in the garden.

I don't ever remember Minvera's authority (or any of the others) ever being important to story beyond showing what some of witches could do.

And if the authories manifest the way I think they do I doubt they will be relvant again. But who knows?

>Pretty sure that was a reveal in the WN. You avoid showing it just to show it later.

Nope. Read Ch 23. Subaru died without ever seering them.

>Whoever said he did? But he's showed them sometimes, and there's value to those scenes.

>Whoever said he did? But he's showed them sometimes, and there's value to those scenes.

All I'm saying it's an option. Somerimes it just rote to do it when you have already done it.

the side effect of minerva's authority seeming almost like what satella was said to have done, and her authority representing her creed that is directly opposite to echidna's creed doesn't seem like it'll be incredibly plot relevant one day? typhon not using pride to it's full potential is definitely foreshadowing the abilities of the current holder of pride, be it subaru or al or whoever else. plus, the more we know about the authorities, the more we can speculate on things like how the authority represents the sin/user, and how subaru's greed/other future authories will manifest.

damn, that's a powerful scene. it would've been amazing if it had been animated.

Yes, exactly. Just having a little girl tell us a bunch of beasts ate them all in the village doesn't pack the same kind of punch. I mean, there's still some impact, but nothing of the same kind. Anyhow, I'm pretty sure it was after Fhrend. Order of eye loss, and all.
>Somerimes it just rote to do it when you have already done it.
And in this case, each death still held meaning.
>Nope. Read Ch 23. Subaru died without ever seering them.
Oh, you're talking about that mansion trip, where he just suddenly gets killed by Elsa without having the faintest idea of what's going on? I was talking about him dragging along Petra's corpse on the next mansion trip. I didn't really remember the first one because it's just a quick unexpected death. Of course they're not going to show the corpses in that context. It kills the surprise.

>Rem (1009)

Oh I remember you

also thats very lewd

Subaru doesn't misyrust Freddie at all in the WN, it's LN only thing. He learns to trust her thanks to other things that happen. For the rest of your stuff that all gotten thoufgh when she protects Subaru despite his mustrust of her and helps him try save Rem in the LN dsspite being sucidal

he and beako talk about how she's probably the one who sold them out to elsa, right? I'll try to find it.

>Every time, Elsa appears as if she is almost lying in wait for Subaru's homecoming. Were there any trick to pulling this off, it would lie in the suspected existence of a betrayer.
>Subaru: “The day I return to the mansion, Elsa gets guided inside. I was sure that going to the mountain cabin'd be part of all that, but...”
>Subaru's first suspicion was that Frederica had beckoned in an Elsa who was lying in wait in the mountain cabin. This was why Subaru had asked Frederica whether she was going there this loop, prepared for her to go on guard about him.
>He had found not a speck of strangeness or pretence in her reply and attitude then. So he had attempted to temporarily agree that it had only been a needless fear.

here we go. I remember reading this scene and being annoyed with subaru since I thought that it couldn't possibly freddie, and then
>He is witnessing this from a distance, but with that long blonde hair and that maid outfit, mistaking her would be impossible.
>It's Frederica. Just as Subaru had predicted she was standing outside Rem's sleeping room, waiting vigilantly for Subaru.
thinking "holy shit maybe he's right" and feeling betrayed by her, and then
>Frederica's body is already cold, her soul long absent from her expression. Her stiffened face carries the repentance of tiding back regrets, forcing even Subaru to sense that she had likely died here risking her life to protect this door.
>Meaning, Frederica had frantically brawled, so that the attacker would not enter this room.
realizing what a good person freddie was. which drives home the point of the lesson about friendship and support that subaru had already learned from otto and the villagers.

no he thought that she was the one who let in Elsa initially, when he figured out that someone from the inside gave her information. Frederica being the person from the mansion he knew the least makes this plausible in his mind too.

When he saw her dead in front of Rem's room he knew she wasn't guilty, and that's probably when he really started suspecting Roswaal wasn't exactly a good guy

>Rem's chest is always growing.
So is Ram's.

>damn, that's a powerful scene. it would've been amazing if it had been animated.
Well yes. Anime viewers were still able to enjoy Arc 3 without it, but it was definitely poorer for the loss. It was poorer for the loss of many scenes that added various layers to what was going on.

wish we got more scenes like that and less god damn whale

>Oh, you're talking about that mansion trip, where he just suddenly gets killed by Elsa without having the faintest idea of what's going on? I was talking about him dragging along Petra's corpse on the next mansion trip. I didn't really remember the first one because it's just a quick unexpected death. Of course they're not going to show the corpses in that context. It kills the surprise.

He could easily shown them after or before Elsa appeared like in most horror movies. Whatever the reason is the point is that he didn't show them. It's not like he never has a reason, it's ceetianly because he's suddenly afarid of corposes.

This not even the only surprising off-screen events that happen in WN

Well, that's how it is. Someone wanted to waste time on a big whale fight, when the whale is just fucking nothing. The whale doesn't matter. It's an action scene with only a scattered few relevant moments. How many episodes did they end up wasting on that bullshit again?
>He could easily shown them after or before Elsa appeared like in most horror movies.
Doesn't work that way, unless you have no understanding of context. That scene doesn't calls for dull surprise, not horror. Or at least not that kind of raw visceral horror. You leave everyone faintly unsure of what the fuck just happened. I'd argue that putting corpses there would just fuck it up. There's not even enough time for Subaru to get a good look at any corpses, which is the main point of any good corpse scene. How he processes it.

>That scene calls for dull surprise, not horror*
Whoops. Anyhow, you're supposed to be left with unease there, and a "Shit, things are starting to happen again" vibe.

I assume Ram's breasts get bigger due to Rem's disappearance. But will they stay after Rem wakes up?

Okay fair point, but himself did not mistrust until others started telling him to.

>realizing what a good person freddie was. which drives home the point of the lesson about friendship

Like I said, this also happens in LN. In fact what's starts shaping his martyrdom complex because he feels so bad about getting Freddie, Ram and Petra killed.

>and support that subaru had already learned from otto and the villagers.

That happened afterwards in the next loops. Actually he started distancing himself from them after that.

>Doesn't work that way, unless you have no understanding of context

Sure it does. That scene was basically ripped straight from a horror movie. That's besides the point, weren't ever talking about context (although I did try point one out which kept dismissing) but the result. You can't pull double standards whenever you want. Up to till I mentioned the specific details you never once thought Tappei never not shown a corpse when he actually done that several times in addition to off-screen deaths. He's shown plenty of corpse in LN, so losing it because he doesn't sometimes hyperbolic.

Even now you making an excuse for WN, by basically he just wanted surprise the reader as if he wasn't doing that in vol 12. Some impressions actually stated they were shocked when that happened and it got even worse Beatrice died and Subaru was almost maimed to death while being entirely helpless and in agony.

right, I had another LN thing I wanted to talk about. a lot of roswaal's reactions were toned down, most notably the "I'll make it snow" before subaru et al head to the mansion before the final loop. throughout the entirely of arc 4, he's been acting like a composed keikaku master, and doesn't even react to being eaten by the hare in of the loops, so his spergy overreaction to the possibility of subaru defeating his gospel emphasizes the amount of faith he places in it, and the depth of his obsession with seeing echidna again.
>Roswaal: “—Because that's what I believe.”
>Replies Roswaal, his voice strangled. Incredible fury flashes through his eyes, as if he were glaring at the thing he hated most in the world.
>Roswaal: “Exactly! Like how you believe in others' strength, and expect things from them! I believe that everybody remains consistently weak! They are weak, frail, minuscule people, incapable of actualizing their love for their precious one outside of merely clinging to them, that is what I believe!”
>Roswaal: “I have gone four centuries without ever forgetting about her! The time we've spent apart is infinitely longer than the time that I spent with her, and still she is emblazoned in my heart and never going to leave! My heart is still in pieces from that day of our goodbye, nothing about me has changed!!”
tells me much more about him than the LN does. dona being the only one that can shake his composure is a very important part of his character that was changed in the LN. and even despite how deeply his 400 devotion to dona is showcased, his insecurity about his feelings and need to project them onto garfiel and emilia is also important. I believe that the connotation of "gospel" is the same in japanese as it is english, and that's what he places in his gospel. absolute faith. subaru even thinks something like "for the first time, he can understand roswaal," which is what the reader is meant to think as well. that's not in the LN.

(you)
his reaction in chapter 84 was also apparent also toned down, and although I haven't actually read the LN version, so I can't say too much about it, his significantly calmer
>Roswaal: “Hold your conceit, Natsuki Subaru. You are not the only one who understands Echidna.”
had very nice contrast with his despair earlier in the WN chapter.

in the LN "lie to a wish" he's also much calmer, and he's more melancholy than despairing like he is in the WN. this very telling scene about his relationship with dona is also gone:
>Roswaal: “I am also that way. With her, I only saw the ideal. You're wonderful, you're brilliant, there's none greater than you. That's how I consoled her, what I kept telling her, focusing my love as if handling a work of glass... even though those things carry not even the slightest of meaning.”
>Speaking quickly, Roswaal averts his gaze, seemingly irritated. Was he talking about Subaru, or was he discussing himself? Perhaps not even Roswaal himself could clearly distinguish it.
>Roswaal: “Why, how! How did you wind up reaching that answer now, here!? How did Natsuki Subaru earlier communicate to you something I couldn't communicate to Teacher!? Him, right now! At this stage! It isn't okay for him to achieve those feelings!”

we've definitely seen more sides to him by 123 in the WN than by the end of v14. composed ros isn't anything too new or revealing. angry despairing ros is. and the contrast between his composure and his despair was what sold a lot his scenes. there's so much of his character that has yet to be revealed in the LN, and that's probably going the make the end of arc 4 weaker, unless they add a bunch of new scenes or something. allowing anything to change, to him, feels like admitting that his feelings are changing, so his (relative) acceptance of subaru's path in the WN is a huge deal. the huge deal part is being set up to lose emphasis in the LN.

>Even now you making an excuse for WN, by basically he just wanted surprise the reader as if he wasn't doing that in vol 12. Some impressions actually stated they were shocked when that happened and it got even worse Beatrice died and Subaru was almost maimed to death while being entirely helpless and in agony.

And keep in mind that this already happend after vol 11 Freddie and Petra had already become likeable to the readers and Subaru had changed his mind about Freddie, both logically and emotionally.

>>Doesn't work that way, unless you have no understanding of context
not me. that's from the other user. note that he uses capital letters for names and new sentences.

This didn't happen before the anime aired. Relatively scenes that needed to be fixed were fixed and Tappei is no stranger to corpses.
The fucking editor. Its the only possible reason that Re:Zero is becoming more anime-like and thus easily adaptable. I fucking hate the anime for it's shit influence on the story.

Have you actually read the LN? All your doing is picking stuff out of WN without any real comparison.

Moreover there person here who has read the LN is drawing tons out of Roswaal's dialogues and actions

fusetter.com/tw/HM1a2#all
fusetter.com/tw/eO1iq#all
fusetter.com/tw/ubomA#all

Tappei has even retweeted this person.

So I'm not sure what you mean by toned down. The LN is extremely dense with a lot to speculate and gleam from it.

Every thread until Rem wakes up.

>Up to till I mentioned the specific details you never once thought Tappei never not shown a corpse when he actually done that several times in addition to off-screen deaths.
You clearly didn't understand anything I wrote. There are offscreen deaths. I never said there weren't. There are times bodies aren't shown. I never said there weren't. You read more into what I wrote than what I put there.
>You can't pull double standards whenever you want.
There's no double standard. It's a set of standards which evaluates and compares scenes based on their function. What kind of shallow-minded moron has a standard with only two-sides? That'd be like expecting me to think every scene should be corpse. Just a whole book of nothing but describing dead bodies. You have to set the mood properly for that.
>Sure it does. That scene was basically ripped straight from a horror movie.
No. It doesn't fit since both Subaru and the audience are meant to be unsure. What happened to Freddie and Petra? Presumably they're dead. Who killed him? Probably Elsa. It's set up, but you don't get a good look at anything. Neither you or Subaru are supposed to have a good look. Things go more indepth later as part of the buildup.
>Even now you making an excuse for WN, by basically he just wanted surprise the reader as if he wasn't doing that in vol 12
Not even sure what the fuck you're saying here. I thought we were talking about the first mansion visit? Any death, even offscreen, will be shocking and surprising. There are different kinds of shocks and surprises, and a shock and surprise isn't what I crave.

Ah sorry:

This was meant for this

>So I'm not sure what you mean by toned down.
I don't think you understand what anyone means by "toned down". It has nothing to do with density. I have no clue what you even think he said.

He's complaining about Roswaal's lack of sperging out. He's more confident in the LN. Thus his sperging is toned down. Understand?

>I fucking hate the anime for it's shit influence on the story.
Or you should be grateful for it because, without it, you would have never been introduced to the series. Don't be such a spoiled brat.

I'd actually wanted to bring those up at some point for another DEEPEST LORE thing about hector doing research alongside dona (as her student?) after I'd gotten my japanese friend summarize them for me. I was the one who did the v14 comparison summary. the chinese guy was a lot more detailed than I was and relayed lie to a wish almost word for word, I said it like this because I was basically asleep at that point and just wanted to be done.

1. as previously mentioned, the ros shows up after ram and lia's dialogue. his conversation with
lia flows a little differently (since she's already completed the first trial in this version). he
congratulates her and offers his sympathies since everyone has so many expectations of her and
she's being pressured to do the trial. lia says that that isn't true, and ros doesn't believe her, saying
that she's only motivated because subaru said pretty words to her, etc. their dialogue is basically
the same as the wn until the "lie to a wish" line.
2. lia notices that ros is fighting back emotion and asks him if he came to provoke her so she'd
attack him because he wants to punish himself. ros says that he hates pain, and that even emilia
will change too. he finds this worthy of respect, but he also pities her because the world is ending
since it's different from the gospel. lia tells him that he can't abandon things halfway through,
and she tells him and ram, who's been holding her hand throughout their entire exchange, that
she'll make his wish come true, before entering the tomb for the second trial. as she's walking to
the tomb, ros tells her in a nostalgic tone that she wrong on one point; it didn't start between him
and emilia, it started between him and his teacher.

it's very toned down from the sperging and yelling in the WN.

>1. as previously mentioned, the ros shows up after ram and lia's dialogue. his conversation with lia flows a little differently (since she's already completed the first trial in this version). he congratulates her and offers his sympathies since everyone has so many expectations of her and she's being pressured to do the trial. lia says that that isn't true, and ros doesn't believe her, saying that she's only motivated because subaru said pretty words to her, etc. their dialogue is basically the same as the wn until the "lie to a wish" line.
>2. lia notices that ros is fighting back emotion and asks him if he came to provoke her so she'd attack him because he wants to punish himself. ros says that he hates pain, and that even emilia will change too. he finds this worthy of respect, but he also pities her because the world is ending since it's different from the gospel. lia tells him that he can't abandon things halfway through, and she tells him and ram, who's been holding her hand throughout their entire exchange, that she'll make his wish come true, before entering the tomb for the second trial. as she's walking to the tomb, ros tells her in a nostalgic tone that she wrong on one point; it didn't start between him and emilia, it started between him and his teacher.
sorry I forgot to format it, this should be easier on the eyes.

Not him, but I'll still say the anime was mediocre. The only reason I liked any of the characters was the source material. The anime drew me in a bit, but I'd have lost interest and found the characters dull without knowing more. It was unsatisfying. Good premise, but failed to deliver.

I wouldn't even have liked Rem if it was all I had to go on.

actually an entirely greentexted post isn't easier on the eyes, oops.

on that note, doesn't the LN seem to be trying to make everyone seem like a better person? puck isn't apathetic about everyone but his daughteru for Reasons, garfiel's dedication to sanctuary is no longer as unreasonably obsessive, and roswaal's defining feature of remorselessly throwing away everyone, even the people who he cares about, to achieve his goal has been toned down.

>he tells ram to stay here and wait for emilia, since even he would feel sad if no one was there for emilia after her trial. ram reflects on the irony of his genuine concern for emilia even as he tries to thwart her, and about how he does the same to garf and subaru (so "he also praises her for speaking to garf" is apparently more well-intentioned than I thought it was. huh).

Whether the anime was good or not is subjective, but it was the sole reason why the series got super popular. No one would know shit about this series if White Fox didn't adapt it into anime.

>doesn't the LN seem to be trying to make everyone seem like a better person?
Yep. That's one of the first things I picked up on. I think it loses something for that.

And that fact is utterly detached from thinking it shouldn't have any influence on how the story is written. It's a fair point to make.

You believe that but I already knew about the series before the anime was announced.

I thought the the anime was above average but not stellar, but it was what got me into the WN, so it did it's job.

agreed, I find that it cheapens a lot of things and significantly changes the theme of the arc.

>I wouldn't even have liked Rem if it was all I had to go on.

really? I started with the anime and to me she was the best part, most of her big scenes were really touching. I can see why it would be disappointing for someone who read the story first and sees how much is missing though

The author wants the series to be animated. And to do that, White Fox need to influence the story somehow so it would be fit into anime format.

>most of her big scenes were really touching
They were. There were just details about her portrayal which were extremely offputting to me, until those holes in her personality were filled in from other sources. Such as early translations and manga pages. I'm not really a sucker for the whole "absolute devotion" thing on its own. What I apparently am a sucker for is that combined with a number of other traits.

>You clearly didn't understand anything I wrote. There are offscreen deaths. I never said there weren't. There are times bodies aren't shown. I never said there weren't. You read more into what I wrote than what I put there.

Me:>Obivious to me just like in WN Tappei is avoiding showing same characters dying over and over again because it is repetitive.

You>That's not really my experience. He's been plenty willing to show bodies. I'd rather he didn't get corpse-shy now. Each is a new scene of horror.

Then I point a out a bunch of examples where no corpses are shown. You make excuses like this: >Of course they're not going to show the corpses in that context. It kills the surprise.

While completely ignoring the context for why Frederica and Petra's bodies where shown (hint Subaru had them escape earlier focus was on Subaru and Beatrice fighting Elsa).

Again this you're conceit. You will speculate or come up reasons to defend the WN, but wont' do the same for LN. It's your inherent bias.

>There's no double standard. It's a set of standards which evaluates and compares scenes based on their function.

Which you completely ignore for one set of things while propping up something else. You literally downplaying the LN incompariosn to WN.

>No. It doesn't fit since both Subaru and the audience are meant to be unsure.

Great, you came up with an obvious reason. This isn't to mock you, but that is exactly what you should be doing for everything. But you are not because of bias.

>What happened to Freddie and Petra? Presumably they're dead. Who killed him?

You really did not read the doc did you? Meili directly mentions she killed them. Prior to this forbidding foreshadow just like with in manison in first loop where is is unnaturally quiet where Subaru sees smoke coming from the village after he finally escapes and he goes to check out just like with mansion worried about Freddie, Rem and Petra before he meets Meili. Neither scene shows the end of the victims for entirely reasonable and sensible reasons, to shock the viewer. In both scenarios the reader can intuitively grasp something bad has happened.

This how you seriously neutrally compare stuff. Like I said in the last thread I'm WN reader just like but I'm not gonna presume hings have no context or are bad because i don't like them. I didn't do that with WN when I came across I didn't like.

>Moreover there person here who has read the LN is drawing tons out of Roswaal's dialogues and actions
oh, speaking of which, the guy who wrote those is a very dedicated rosfag, even moreso than I am. I'm sure WN roswaal's qualities could be picked out of the LN if someone like him were looking for them, but someone reading the LN with virgin eyes would more than likely not notice them.

even the extended sanctuary SoL is emphasizing how people are nicer. dona's humanity is highlighted it mentions she even thought to bring picture books to sanctuary out of consideration for people who never learned to read, and ros acts like a S tier big brother to beako and lewes. and then there's the eye color thing but I've gone on about that a ridiculous number of times already.

>Which you completely ignore for one set of things while propping up something else. You literally downplaying the LN incompariosn to WN.
Because I actually read the different versions of the scenes I'm comparing. I can suggest why the scene was written differently. That doesn't mean I don't think it was worse. I can explain anything. I cannot explain a scene to be better than it is. The first mansion scene, which I explained, serves a purpose. That does not make it a very powerful scene. It's just part of the pacing. It's setup for better scenes.

When the good scene is replaced with a less effective one, it honestly doesn't matter if I understand why it was done. I've provided plenty of speculation as to that. I explained it away and remained unsatisfied.
>You really did not read the doc did you?
We're obviously not on the same fucking page, now are we. You brought up a scene. You keep switching between which scene you think we're talking about. Fuck the doc, I read that scene. We moved past that to talk about another scene. Don't jump back and forth.
>This how you seriously neutrally compare stuff.
I do that with everything. If I still don't like it, I still don't like it. If you want, I could write a love letter to every single change I dislike, find nothing but positive things to say about it. It'd be extremely easy for me, even the changes that absolutely disgust me. You think I don't even bother to look for reasons? No. I just think the reason is bad compared to the original.

That's bad word choice. Toned-down, dumb-down are all words with negative to say something worse. If you meant to say it is different then yo don't use those words. Especially because you easily reverse that had Roswaal more confident in the WN and less LN. I wouldn't call either just different especially because you can infer a lot form bother version especially past vol 14 which has more time spent on his past than in WN.

All of these changes are a YMMV some of you admit that but than change to objective tone and wording. You just sending mixed signals now.

>) after I'd gotten my japanese friend summarize them for me.

That's not quite reading it yourself and looking through the dialogue directly, but I can accept that.

>it's very toned down from the sperging and yelling in the WN.

Right. But you don't need him to be acting over to understand his desperation. There are plenty of more composed antagonists (if not outright stoic) you get a lot of what their feeling without them spreging out. I mean like Roswaal doing that too in WN, but maybe it's because I've read so many villain convey their weakness in more profound ways that require that kind of action. Roswaal's change doesn't bother me. IIRC Tappei say that he wanted to make him more arrogant.

>are all words with negative to say something worse.
Tone down isn't a negative word. Tone down can be positive in many cases. You need to study some more English. Just saying it's "different" says absolutely nothing of value.

This.

The source material for whatever reason failed to grab many people on Narou and the LNs had mediocre sales with lots of bad reviews until the anime finished. Now everything is in reverse. The adaptation basically saved and elevated this series. People still want a S2 even after reading the source which shows how little the nitpicking from source readers like us matter.

It's a bona fide success that personal grievances can beat. Porbably because most people don't expect perfect adaptations anymore, just good to great ones.

>agreed, I find that it cheapens a lot of things and significantly changes the theme of the arc.
And it seems clearly intentional. It's not hard for me to see scenes being shifted and reworded. It's not to my taste in terms of how I enjoy characters.
>even the extended sanctuary SoL is emphasizing how people are nicer.
Pretty much exactly as I expected it would. I noticed it from even before the beginning of Arc 4.

>on that note, doesn't the LN seem to be trying to make everyone seem like a better person?

Not sure how.

Beatrice, Freddie, Petra, Rem, Emilia, Ram, Garf and even Subaru were never bad people to begin with WN/LN/manga/whatever . They just had shitty lives that colored their world view. You can be a good person and have bad flaws.

>had mediocre sales with lots of bad reviews
Then I must say the reviewers have shit taste, which strikes me as quite unfortunate. I'd also like to see these bad reviews, to see just how shit their taste is.
>were never bad people
No one said they were. They said the LN seems to be trying to make them look "better". Where does he say they were "bad"?

>to see just how shit their taste is.
Though I do have a guess, going by what I recall being said in some early threads about the matter. Something about there being too much suffering?

I don't think "toned down" is negative, but that's a semantics thing that I hardly want to get into. I will admit that my japanese friend only gave me a very general summary and I didn't press for one because I ask for an annoying amount of translations, which was why I didn't say much on the stuff I hadn't read. but I read the direct dialogue from "lie to a wish" and I had a pretty detailed summary on "I'll make it snow" from the chinese summary and the impression I got from LN ros was very different than the one I got from WN ros. in LN lie to a wish he's almost resigned (although at this point emilia has already done the first trial so that's fairly justified, although I'm sure that WN ros wouldn't have handled that as calmly). the line "I'll make it snow" is gone from the "I'll make it snow" scene, so make of that what you will. his lack of apparent desperation here changes the reader's perception of how much faith he places into the gospel/dona. if you've read the WN and you're looking for it, you'll find hints of it, but the overall perception has changed.

but the most notable absence is the implied state of the relationship between ros and dona. the WN quotes here and here say things about what he thinks of his relationship with her that are almost completely absent from the LN. what I get from WN ros is that he's insecure about his feelings and is terrified of having them change, and hates how he never said anything of value to her, and tries to project himself onto garf, subaru, and emilia. LN ros doesn't reveal this at all. it's something that's missing from his character.

Studios have no effect on anything getting greenlight or anything creative beyond the production of the work itself the anime.

Creators like Tappei have no real say in anime and best an consultants. Tappe i has been planning these changes even before the anime anyway.

>That’s because, when the light novel was made, the first three volumes were consecutive publications with the contents written in around half a year. At the same time, I was also proceeding with arc 4. It was difficult for my brain to switch between the start and arc 4, but during that time I did have free time to update.
And when I have time to update, I would sadly go “I forgot the contents of my previous update.” As a result, I would write the same kind of thing. I would forget what I was trying to say. When that issue arises, the quality/crispness of the story is gone. I thought arc 4 was quite interesting, but had a lot of waste [pointless content?].
I think that was the biggest reason that [regarding arc 4 issues] happened

re-library.com/translations/rezero/extra/nagatsuki-tappeis-tweets-on-rezero-after-the-anime-ended/

To add all the LN arcs are shorter than WN counterparts anyway.

it was specifically about puck, garf, ros, and sort of dona. there was already plenty of discussion on garf last thread, puck's is pretty straightforward (I think I read somewhere that tappei even said he wanted to make puck look like less of an asshole? but obviously not in those words), ros is more remorseful, (he even has "genuine concern for emilia") and both he and dona have more flashback material that emphasizes their humanity. nthere are even more lines talking about dona's humanity in the LN.

>but had a lot of waste [pointless content?].
Everyone agrees on this. There's a ton of bloat in Arc 4. A lot of the changes have little to do with bloat. There were better places to trim fat. Not many that I can recall off the top of my head, but that's what makes them better places to trim. They're utterly unmemorable.

>The first mansion scene, which I explained, serves a purpose. That does not make it a very powerful scene. It's just part of the pacing. It's setup for better scenes.

Every scene in the series is like his, even the ones you don't like. No author writes stuff just to do so. Why don't you get this I don't know. Stuff like is what makes me you think you consider Tappei an idiot or you conflate your dislike of something with whether something has logic. A scene doesn't need to be powerful, the point they serve is that of a vehicle to advance the story. The how and why differs but it's entirely up to the author.

You can not like something and still recognize it has purpose.

>When the good scene is replaced with a less effective one

But you aren't the judge what is good scene or not. Both scenes was effective to some people and wasn't to others. That's it.

It doesn't matter to me if you don't like a particular scene for whatever reason, I'm not you so it is fine. But if gonna talk in absolutist I can contest that.

>You keep switching between which scene you think we're talking about.

I was always talking about the same scene. It's the first and only time Meili and Elsa have appeared together so far.

>I do that with everything. If I still don't like it, I still don't like it.

You don't, your very posts on here don't have doing that. You just complaining about one scene and praising the other in a non-subjective tone. That is how you coming across to me. Keep in mind I'm paying attention to the words you using and way you say them which betray your intent.

>That is how you coming across to me
And I don't really care. I recognize the purpose of scenes just fine. However, I feel no need to praise a scene or give a balanced opinion where I give a detailed list about everything it did fine and weigh its pros and cons. I do that internally. It's not what I have interest in talking about. I am explaining why I don't like it. Not what I have a completely neutral opinion about. I am not going to explain at length what reasons I feel may justify the change.

It has absolutely nothing to do with what I intend to discuss about it. Which are the reasons I feel the change were a bad idea. You know. How people discuss things.

wow, we're really autistic.

Yes, it depends on context, but feeling around here towards LN or at least the people I have been talking to has been generally negative.

You're raising some good points. Honestly for me I felt the best moments about Ros' was near very end of Arc 4 when conversation with Beatrice. He wasn't rating and raving and seem this personality reverted back to his older days. I understood his feelings about Echidna when he talking with Beatrice better than anywhere else. His frankness and self-loathing about himself there with an old friend sold himself to me better than his cryptic remarks.

y-you have top tier taste, user! that was my favorite arc 4 scene. they're only that honest with each other. beako is the only one who ros trusts that much, and she's even more frank with him than she is with subaru. they're clearly not on the best terms and haven't spoken properly in so long, but they're so comfortable with each other. it's like they don't have to hide the parts of themselves they don't like around each other. have you read the arc 6 scene with them? it's amazing, here you go.

>[Roswaal: You and I act different when it’s just us two; I act wholeheartedly, while you act carefree.]
>[Beatrice: That would mean that you see a side of me that is completely different from a mother. The Betty that holds Subaru’s hand is several hundreds times better, so how about you refrain from offending me like that.]
>[Roswaal: That’s something that you’ve become able to admit. Someone like you who pretends to be a librarian of a prohibited library should become as happy as she can.]
>[Beatrice: That’s a given. Which is why I’ll have you allow me to act in order to protect that happiness, I suppose.]

>[Roswaal: I don’t mean to hinder your efforts. It’s just that having fewer people to acknowledge would be more convenient for me. That’s all.]
>Beatrice gives a strong glare at Roswaal at the end, and then she surely headed towards the door.
The remainder of the discussion was also put to an end.
>[Roswaal: Beatrice.]
>Roswaal speaks out to the faraway girl.
>Beatrice stopped walking, but she doesn’t turn around.
>[Roswaal: You see Beatrice, I want you to be happy—or at least always be stronger than all the other masses. This is what I feel, and that’s because you’re……you’re like a younger sister to me.]
>[Beatrice: —That doesn’t make me very happy. Moreover, you’re not a mother.]
>[Roswaal: Isn’t that what love is?]
>She didn’t respond.
>She simply opens the door, and then only sound to be heard throughout the parlor was the quiet sound of her closing the door.
>And after that, not a single sound was left within the parlor.

also thanks for actually reading my posts, most people dismiss them tl;dr.

Well for me I feel that Tappei is best critic of his own work, because he is the only one besides those he's told his future plans to who knows how everything will best fit. Personality I liked a few of scenes that were cut from Arc 4 myself, such as the intermission chapter that was mentioned or scene after the 3rd Witches Tea Party. Some of them I still hope make back in, but if doesn't I'll just accept their weren't eitehr all that important or an equivalent scene might show up down the line.

The smaller changes like who busted Subaru's eye i don't really care about because they all happened under similar circumstances and were full of despair and that's all I need.

It helps that I don't have any problems with the new stuff nor do I feel that adhere to WN if he feels things are better the way they are. But in the end I haven't read myself, so I can't really judge it I can only truly go by general reaction. If it is good then he's doing something right regardless of my opinion about it.

Someone fucking translate the latest web novel chapter already. It's been two months.

If you're talking about those characters tah makes more sense. Thought how you cna make Garfiel look better after he killed a bunch of innocent people. He gonna be hated soley for that and his irrationally for majority of the Arc 4. He had less of an excuse for what he did than Rem did and she was already in shaky ground. It took people awhile to get over her killing and torturing Subaru and Garf's actions are magnitude worse.

Yeah, as long as that is kept in LN. I don't mind Ros continuing his bravado since you can view it as him being more stubborn. I felt showed his true character the best.

Even in the LN he's mask is starting to crack internally, but it's more subtle:

v13
>d) Instead of getting shocked/angry when he finds out that Subaru lost the qualifications (and ‘can’t regain them’), Roswaal’s reaction is more along the lines of puzzled or mild surprise. But he quickly recovers

That was one of issue yes. But even the LN's darkness/edge was too much for a lot of people, so kinda of funny that we are arguing that it isn't depressing enough.

The LN is already one of most fucked up LNs in the medium. S2 will have hard time censoring what is coming up and general depression as it is.

...

>Yes, it depends on context, but feeling around here towards LN or at least the people I have been talking to has been generally negative.
Of course it can. However, "different" is every bit as negative in the same context, and would convey less information. Everyone here will be as negative as they choose to be, and there's nothing you can or should do about it. Negativity is good. It helps me, and presumably many others, reflect on the things we enjoy and better understand why we enjoyed it.

I am extremely negative, and have no real interest in being otherwise. As strange as it might sound, it's often a refreshing perspective.
>The smaller changes like who busted Subaru's eye i don't really care about because they all happened under similar circumstances and were full of despair and that's all I need.
And that's where we differ. The eye means nothing to me. He could have lost a finger. He could have lost his dick. He could have lost a nose. The organ itself doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if Rem's limbs are twisted or if she's stabbed a billion times. What mattered was who did it and why.

Despair isn't a scale to me. It's all the surrounding circumstances. I'm not here for edgy torture porn. I'm here for how all the little things come together, the details that paint a broader picture, add to the framing, or direct perspective. To me, these things might even matter more than the major events, because they are what shapes them. And that's just that. I don't do broad strokes.
>I feel that Tappei is best critic of his own work
No one is the best critic of their own work, whether positive or negative. I've seen where that kind of thinking leads. Whether in the fans or the author.
>most people dismiss them tl;dr.
More people read than you realize, but just haven't thought of anything to add.

>The LN is already one of most fucked up LNs in the medium.
Huh. I thought they had a ton of fucked up shit out there.
>But even the LN's darkness/edge was too much for a lot of people, so kinda of funny that we are arguing that it isn't depressing enough.
Well, as I like to make clear, it's not about being despair, edginess, and darkness. It's how Re:Zero uses it. I actually see the series as rather lighthearted and optimistic. But maybe it makes the despair work better than most, so it has more impact and feels more real than someone being a total edgelord or something written for pure shock value. Poorly done edge, despair, and darkness just ends up as almost comical.

But yeah. It's disappointing that people didn't appreciate those aspects. That's just shit taste.
>Thought how you cna make Garfiel look better after he killed a bunch of innocent people.
Easy enough. Remove emphasis on certain character traits. Tone down surrounding events just a tad. Make his attitude less negative overall. Give a few more scenes showing a more sympathetic perspective. Have him be a little more reasonable, or cut certain lines where he says something a bit too callous. Just little things.