Remind me again what are the benefits of civilization and agriculture? The only benefit I can come up with is that agricultural civilizations can feed a lot more people per square acre than hunter-gatherers, and therefore have an advantage at manpower. But that's really not an issue nowadays anymore, there's plenty of wilderness where nobody wants to live so it's really no problem anymore.
Why civilization?
Landon Foster
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Landon Thompson
Buildings are overrated... humanity had it much better. Do you enjoy cleaning dust? There are so much trivial tasks and surrogate activities we keep ourselves busy with. Our ancestors didn't have to deal with that bullshit.
Aiden Johnson
I agree OP but it's too late today. There isn't enough space for 8 billion hunter gatherers, plus we're too far gone.
Jeremiah Parker
Come home white man.
Anthony Brooks
Just wait for the Helter Skelter brother
Caleb Clark
The thing is that nobody wants to move out of cities, we don't have to think about rural and suburban retards or smart city people. They want their ratcages. There are not many hunter-gathering communities in Europe what I know of.
Xavier Robinson
Cause it's hard a shit finding and meeting 10-20 normal,sane people who would want to live this way. It's hard OP. You can always do it solo, hermit style but that require immense want for that and willpower.
Brayden Phillips
This is one reason I'm thinking about it. Our lives are literally outside of our control. Oil transports stop? Logistics stop? Everyone will starve. A lab designed virus to harvest the overpopulated world? There is a 100 ways things could be fucked up within our lifetime and there's nothing we can do about it. It's a very fragile system.
Brayden Ward
Don’t worry fellow user,we’ll survive
Think about it, this is the most connected humans HAVE EVER BEEN ever place on earth is just hours away by plane, all it takes is one disease that can mutate faster than a vaccine and billions upon billions will be dead, no mass produced food, no automation only the will to power and people’s intuition will keep those who are immune to the disease alive.
It keeps me hopeful that all these homesteading skills I’ve acquired will have the biggest payoff ever, but you can’t do it alone. Get like minded people and form a community and assist one another
Zachary Myers
Well yeah that's my problem, I don't want to form a tribe with retards or nutcases. Finding a wife that'd want it is not going to be easy either. But you have to have a community, if everyone dies but my family my children would have to procreate through incest which I do not desire. You'd need a decent sized community for it be a antifragile community.
Let's take Varg and Marie as example. How the fuck are their sons going to find wives to continue the Vargian life? Are there autist dating sites with parents marrying their autistic girls away? I don't know.
Wyatt Mitchell
Varg kids are on youtube, they'll have no problems socializing.
Anthony Flores
>this is the most connected humans HAVE EVER BEEN
Most people don't see what a massive danger that is. Our survival is not in our own hands.
>all it takes is one disease that can mutate faster than a vaccine
I don't believe a naturally formed disease would be strong enough, or something ''we'' couldn't stop. I fear a lot more high-up malevolent intents. They could do engineered diseases or mandatory ''vaccines'' that are in fact poison. Elites will not need a massive amount of workers in a few decades to extract resources, produce, and create things for themselves.
>Get like minded people
Any ideas how we should do this?
Tyler Thomas
Yes there are a million potential problems with this OP, and the thing is the community will always be fragile. What happens if you have a bad spring/summer with snow in spring and a shit ton of rain in the summer? Or a fungus attacks your crops and your harvest yields nothing? Or a critical person in your community breaks a leg or something? You would need to be able to solve any problem humans might face just without any of the technological advances we have today.
I'm telling you OP this shit needs planning, planning and more planning.
Would you strive for complete innawoods community or would trips to the hospital be acceptable? Would you use modern medicine?
Then you have sociological and criminal issues and so on and so on.
Adrian Nguyen
Procreation is the only commodity that society could offer me and it knows it. So the price it puts on genuine companionship is astronomical. I'm a smart guy with a great figure, but unless I want some brain dead normie or some slag thot, I'd have to be at the upper ends of any heirarchy just to have a chance at finding a decent partner.
So I'm forced to play the game, even if my heart and mind are at the homestead.
Nathaniel Gonzalez
It's a common vision, I can tell you exactly how to find people. WWOOF or take the permaculture design certificate course.
If you have money/land, either of these will link you up with like-minded people.
Camden Williams
Yep that's my idea. WWOOF and tree planting when I finish uni, but you would still need years to meet the right people who you can trust. But if you really want something you will do it I guess.
Gabriel Perry
What is wood and what is a perma-culture design class
Luis Flores
And what's so great about bare survival? I see no meaning in "living for living".
Gabriel Allen
Also stop browsing Sup Forums and start browsing /out/ and /diy/ and start collecting knowledge. If you have money buy a small patch of land so you can get some practical knowledge as well and a space where you can start testing yourself.
Jaxson Myers
Do y'all think WWOOFing on a cattle farm in Texas would be reasonable?
I've always wanted to LARP as a cowboy and I feel like that's the best place to start.
Leo Smith
Google both. WWOOF is a network for young idealistic volunteer farmers. The PDC attracts similar types of people, but it's designed more like a university seminar.
Isaiah Price
I didn't mean socializing, I think they will do find. I meant finding a wife. It's not easy to find a truly Trad wife that wants to live a permaculture life like Marie. Marie is autistic and sensitive to noises, so she hates cities because of that.
>What happens if you have a bad spring/summer
The ideal location for a community would be where permaculture, fishing, hunting, trapping, would all be possible. Naturally within the limits of state laws, but so long the laws are in place we have supermarkets and no genuine starvation is possible. If SHTF and no food in supermarkets, then even 'illegal' trapping/fishing ways can be utilized.
>Or a fungus attacks your crops
Permaculture on a huge area with crops not concentrating on one location.
>Or a critical person in your community breaks a leg or something
That's why you don't have ''critical persons'', but you have everyone know many things so that the community is not that fragile. Everyone dies and counting on one person not to is bonkers.
>would trips to the hospital be acceptable? Would you use modern medicine?
So long those things exist (pre-SHTF), yes I'd use them if needed. I don't want to be a LARPer but maximize my children's ability to survive. Having a car is okay too, but you can't depend your life on it because oil.
Kevin Morales
Agriculture was a mistake.
Zachary Cook
No one forces you to live in the civilization. Take your clothes of and run to the woods, you're free to do so. Let's see for how long you survive.
Carson Smith
This. Science went to far; this is the hubris of man...
Julian Miller
You can't survive in the wilderness because the natural wildlife has all been decimated by industrialization. The few areas that are protected so not allow wild men to roam their property.
Get a grip, industroapologist
Cameron Lee
google.com
Black Death mutating, and the common flu mutates every year
Well I would suggest finding bushcraft classes, engage in traditional festivals, partake in hiking groups etc etc. this is just off the top of my head
David Collins
> Finding a wife that'd want it is not going to be easy either.
That's never been easy...
Juan Peterson
HOW THE FUCK HAS ANYONE EVER BRED
Joshua Morales
WWOOF? Are there traditional minded people there or bunch of dudeweed hippies only?
Who says it's bare survival only? I could totally find it enjoyable to have a nice community focused on hunting, permaculture and simple living.
>If you have money buy a small patch of land
Yeah the thing is that I don't want to buy a land without a community. I'd rather not invest 10 years of work on polishing a nice homestead only first then finding the people that I'd want to live with.
Matthew Wilson
Fuck em anyway and let them complain later.
Michael Brooks
we cant reach the stars without civilization.
soon the galaxy will know who the fuck humans are by our salty discharge coming from our eyes when we dont get what we want.
Robert Brooks
You make kids and you regret it forever that's how.
Jose Robinson
Isn't there a discord for Sup Forums homesteaders?
Jordan Brooks
>Science went to far
when will Science come back from Far?
Robert Rivera
Their is know going back
Ian Sullivan
Yeah, it's not like anyone is truly free to hunt and fish anywhere and anything he wants, the way he wants. I am pretty much forced to consent with the rules of civilization, to my knowledge you can't claim ''laws don't apply to me because I don't play within civilization''.
I guess I underestimate the potential for natural mutations. Well there's little difference from our point of view if it's a natural or man-made disease: we're fucked if we get it.
>bushcraft classes,...
Learning mostly through YouTube (Survival Russia) and my dad, who grew up on a farm. Also I spent a fair bit in the forest during army, so it's not like I'm a total noobie. Any good books or YouTubers?
Grayson Barnes
Remind me again what are the benefits of civilization
>Get like minded people and form a community and assist one another
>Any ideas how we should do this?
is this satire
James Rogers
What's the end-game in reaching the stars? I am afraid that by the time ''we'' (the elite) has technology that allows for serious space travel, what role do you think non-elite retards like we have in that? We are at most useful suckers, it's not like they care about us.
Was Sci-Fi a psyop to make young nerdy people to work for the ZOG?
>Discord
I've been told not to trust that thing. Haven't heard of a Sup Forums homesteading channel.
Aaron Lopez
give me a guide on how to make a beautiful house like this RIGHT now finnbro
Landon Hill
No it's not satire. Are you bluepilled and think it's ''self-evident'' that civilization is a good thing?
James King
>Remind me again what are the benefits of civilization
you
>Get like minded people and form a community and assist one another
civilization
>Any ideas how we should do this?
also you
Kayden Turner
Well it doesn't look like they are that complicated, even though they look awesome. All you really need is an axe and a plot of forest. There are plenty of stones in the forest.
Brayden Edwards
>civilization
Are you implying hunter-gatherer TRIBES were not communities?
>also you
I really don't get what you meant with this one.
Carter Reed
Hes implying that you're creativity civilization by what you're doing.
He misses the point that current civilization is absolutely rotten to the core.
Caleb Bailey
I'm thinking smallpox/one of its relatives/new strain of either - we haven't vaccinated for it in decades and I doubt soy based immune systems could handle it.
Jacob Bell
I lived in a cave for 2 years. It was ok.
Asher Miller
Lots of people dream of stuff like this and almost all of them quit or never start. People vastly underestimate the amount of work and sacrifice required.
Somewhere there is a guy on youtube who made a chicken sandwhich from scratch, going through every step including raising the chicken. And it cost him like $3000. Which I think was mostly the cost of his labor calculated at minimum wage. Turns out mass production and specialization of labor is incredibly efficient.
Even if you succeed in going off the grid, so what? People live off the land in South Africa. Doesn't save them from being shot and having the land taken by nigs. People forget the purpose of civilization is first and foremost security and rule of law. The economic benefits came much later.
Benjamin Rogers
Thanks for translating, I didn't get it. I don't consider permaculture+hunting as ''civilization''.
It could be anything really, there is so many ways things could go wrong and even if they individually are unlikely the likelihood that something disasterous is going to happen is rather high.
But did you make babies?
Jeremiah Perez
I don't think so.
Isaiah Butler
Oh and overpopulation is a thing. We can only stave it off in first world countries with birth control and economic growth. All primitive societies start out great with tons of resources, but eventually become living hells. There isn't enough land for everyone to have their own.
And then powerful gangs start demanding more and more tribute from you. And recruiting your sons to fight in their gang against other gangs. And oh look the gang just became really big. And now it's establishing rules and systems of keeping order. And they start to evolve over time. While people tinker with things and invent new technologies.
And oh shit we have civilization again. Time to reset.
William Russell
>and almost all of them quit or never start.
Most people do not have a real reason. I believe my bloodline won't survive if I won't do it. I don't want to do it, but I think I have to if I want my children not to get fucked in a potential SHTF.
>chicken sandwhich from scratch,
I didn't plan on eating sandwiches. You know that hunter-gatherers worked less than people do nowadays?
>People live off the land in South Africa. Doesn't save them from being shot
I don't live in Africa. And where I live, there won't ever be so much nogs that they'd pose a threat to me.
>the purpose of civilization is first and foremost security
What will your purpose be in civilization once automation starts making people unemployed enmasse. If you think you'll be secure with Rothschild & Co. as your overlords, good for you. I'd felt much safer in a small, off-grid community.
Eli Green
That's like saying Tradition is pointless because all things degenrate. Striving for the ideal is not fruitless, striving for mediocrity and conformity are.
Luis Harris
>Remind me again what are the benefits of civilization and agriculture?
I like hot running water and electricity. Call me a pussy if you want, but I don't think I'd enjoy living in a bug-infested hut with a dirt floor and shitting in a hole.
I also couldn't/wouldn't make anything that nice.
Ian Phillips
if you try to go off the grid in the US, florida specifically, they'll just condemn your house, seize your property and legislate that you are required to have the internet. seriously those kinds of brainlets can make policy here, and then we for some reason take a bunch of those morons seriously when they talk about gun control that will affect the entire country, not just the retards in florida who are too dumb to stop the tide of illegals, nor can they handle themselves in a fire fight apparently.
Brandon Williams
Instead you live ina chemical ridden concrete cell devoid of life and filled with mind rotting distractions and numbing comforts.
Nathan Peterson
Why does this read like a threat?
John Taylor
>there's plenty of wilderness where nobody wants to live
WRONG
people want to live in it but its own by someone
>go out in the wilderness
>build a house
>make a small farm
>get kicked out because someone owns the land
Nolan King
>We can only stave it off in first world countries with birth control and economic growth.
Oy vey! Looks like we need more migrants for the aging population.
>And then powerful gangs start demanding more and more tribute from you.
What powerful primitive gangs are there in Northern Europe?
>And oh shit we have civilization again.
You do know that hunter-gatherer lifestyle survived for a fucking long time in Finland, and it's not because people didn't know about farming. In some places of Siberia, they still live primitively, and are happy that way.
Anthony Rodriguez
>they'll just condemn your house, seize your property and legislate that you are required to
this
people want to live in the woods
but this is the likely out come
Wyatt Perez
traditionally it makes sense. collective self defense; collective providence (diversified economy);
these days, however, cities have become liabilities
top military targets and centers of massive dependency
Asher Baker
>"Why civilation", he cries out over a social media site, waiting for a response from anonymous image board users.
Christopher Foster
Because it's from a Finn.
Landon Peterson
Like I said. Sounds better than the alternative.
I took a long hot shower this morning because I smelled bad. On my homestead farm, I'd just smell bad.
Asher Bailey
Living off the grid declared Illegal in many areas of the United States
Ryan Harris
>I took a long hot shower this morning because I smelled bad. On my homestead farm, I'd just smell bad.
you are an idiot
wood burning + water = hot water
Parker Gonzalez
I was the other night thinking how you'd make a bathtub with hot water as primitively as possible, and it wouldn't even be hard. Just heat a water tank with wood, connect it with a tube to the bathtub, and you have a hot bath! Not a lot of work.
Who says you can't use electricity? I'd just not want my life to depend on it.
>and shitting in a hole.
Have you ever tried shitting in the forest? I started to love it during the army, you have to do it about 10 times and you will prefer shitting in the peace of the wilderness over a messy stall.
I said:
COME HOME, WHITE MAN.
Jace Campbell
There is none finbro. Go and live on the land, let me know how you're doing in a week when you're hungry, cold and bored out of your mind.
Joshua Mitchell
>The only benefit I can come up with is that agricultural civilizations can feed a lot more people per square acre than hunter-gatherers
There are millions of notable achievements of civilization. But they all don't mean a thing if we're unhappy with our unnatural way of life.
I'd join your loghouse village in the finnish wilderness
Tyler Young
>live in woods
>have tooth ache
>die
You won't have internet either.
Nathan James
Also the worst place to be in a biological attack. Be it an attack from Mother nature or CIA deciding they need to cull the Earth, a city is not a good place to be. The only way to protect oneself against a threat that you can't even see, you have to not be within it's reach.
Wow, the irony!! right!!
One has to choose carefully where one decides to settle. I think Finland and Russia are good. Varg swears that France is good, but they took his weapons from him and his wife so I don't want to go there.
Ian Thompson
>hunter-gatherers worked less than people do nowadays?
In Africa. When they have tons of land and most the plants and animals are edible there. They don't have to farm it.
If you want to work less in the modern world, you can do that. Live very frugally and work only a minimal amount a week. No one wants to do that though. And we make fun of the people that do. You still have the buy the land you want to live on and pay taxes on it, so you still need money.
>Rothschild & Co. as your overlords
> where I live, there won't ever be so much nogs that they'd pose a threat to me.
Yeah good luck with that.
Oh and as people like have pointed out, most of what you want to do is probably illegal or soon will be. Everything from hunting laws to strict building codes. To laws against gardens, livestock, and food production. The nanny state doesn't give a shit about your alternative lifestyle.
>we need more migrants for the aging population.
We both know that's not true, and they'd bring them in anyway.
>What powerful primitive gangs are there in Northern Europe?
The government.
>hunter-gatherer lifestyle survived for a fucking long time in Finland
Sure but eventually the civilized people will vastly outbreed them and outgun them.
Dominic Lopez
How am I supposed to make a tube in the wilderness?
Christopher Wright
The problem was when a load of ideologues were all trying to take over the world and not having a civilization would mean destruction.
You are begging to become feral within a generation. In fact, places like Sup Forums are considered feral and detached from the center of the "civilized internet". Maybe they are correct.
Best to find a balance and that is where regionalism/nationalism comes in.
Andrew Lee
Even if sustainance is all you can manage (and many can do better than that) it's still better than living "paycheck to paycheck".
Nathan Collins
>There are millions of notable achievements of civilization.
Well yeah, I give that. But I fail to see the sustainability and meaning in modern human life, exactly because it's so unnatural and detached of our natural impulses.
>I'd join your loghouse village in the finnish wilderness
You'd most likely be welcome, if you can find a wife to come with you!
You ever wonder how humans didn't die out if death from ''bad luck'' was that common as imagined? First of all humans probably didn't have as much problems with teeth, as they didn't eat around the clock and they didn't eat tons of sugary shit like we do.
Julian Jenkins
do you want to do this in finland?
the yukon territory is bigger than finland, same latitude but only 35k people
it's hard to live like you're saying that north
Leo Garcia
The problem with modern civilization (based on the agricultural revolution in the Neolithic) is that it allowed for a shift in reproductive strategy in humans ... away from low number but high quality individuals able to survive the rigors of a hunter-gatherer lifestyle towards low quality but high number of progeny. While 'modern culture' allowed for progress due to more efficient division of labor it also started the inevitable genetic downfall of our species.
Luis Perez
Or rent. Success is all about making mutually beneficial bargains. Bater whenever possible. Underutilized land is absolutely everywhere. Go strike a deal.
Xavier Jenkins
Civilization is man's punishment for original sin. The garden was a perfect balance between the chaos of nature and the order of civilization. Man's nature corrupted this and he must now work the earth to survive.
Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:
“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
Cooper Butler
>They don't have to farm it.
Nordic hunter-gatherers didn't farm either. Althought they probably did more work than Africans,
>If you want to work less in the modern world, you can do that.
I don't care about lots of work if it's meaningful. You can do a lot of work with a happy face if it feels important, but even a small amount of trivial work is soul crushing. Simple living doesn't have ''trivial work'', that's one thing that attracts me.
>most of what you want to do is probably illegal or soon will be.
Not every place on Earth = USA. Hunting is done for animal population control, which is why it won't get illegal. I'll just move to Russia if shit would get that bad.
>Sure but eventually the civilized people will vastly outbreed them and outgun them.
Think 50 years from now. Automatization has conquered the ''civilized'' world. Workers will be useless. They won't be kept around as useless consumers.
Eli Flores
add some cannabis into that mix too, great for trading or even selling depending on your state of course.
Luke Howard
It would require a person eats unfamiliar plants, isable to trap small game, and able to kill a large ungulate. People need salt to live, and boiling salt water is a great source if one is not willing to stomach drinking the blood of small animals.
Jason Torres
Noah White
We already hunted the megafauna to extinction. that's why we had to turn to ag
Mason Martin
Cave life > muh family suburban cuck life.
Owen Brooks
>you have to not be within it's reach.
right, I'm planning on hanging out in antarctica for a while
CIA isn't going to launch a biological attack
Russians might tho
>Russian researchers used reverse transcriptase-PCR to create a DNA copy of the Ebola virus and then spliced the genes encoding key virulence factors into the unnecessary regions of the smallpox genome.
>Alibek believes that this chimera, which he has named Ebolapox, would be capable of causing hemorrhagic smallpox, the most fatal form of the disease, in all infected individuals
Jackson Morris
enjoy your spiders and smelling like dirt ass
Brody Miller
Infinity chan has the new /offgrid/ board if anyone is interested.
Not much as of yet, but it will grow.
That brazillian who had a few threads here some weeks ago is there too
Owen Nguyen
Connect pieces of birch bark. Carve out of wood. Chop out of stone. Depends of sturdy and long-lasting the ''tube'' needs to be. You don't need a full tube, half-tube is enough.
I don't think there's true competition of ideas in ''our'' civilization, those in charge have decided how the dice will roll.
I'd prefer Finland because of home territory advantage. I know the geography, laws, and all that stuff better than I do elsewhere. Immigration is huge bureacratic mess. But if I found a good, like-minded community outside of Finland, I'd might consider it. Yukon looks like a nice place, but is it a good place for permaculture?
Well said.
Evan Adams
>obligatory anprim memes
Easton Morales
Diversity of crops/output is a cornerstone of permaculture. Emphasize respect for private property. No one is begrudged recourse to modern medicine if they need it and can obtain it. That being said healers are in high demand in any society they find themselves in. If I were running a community, controversies could be resolved by a court of Twelve men of the community. Even though it is out of fashion right now, men of honor always have recourse to dueling (which need not usually be lethal btw). Anyone who invites the authorities into the community for any reason will be banished.
Owen Reed
Thx! I really do have the theory that this ancient split in lifestyle may explain a lot of the differences in intelligence and behaviour that we see in contemporary human populations. I propose that the key to the current global dominance of Europe (and its descendents) is the ancient Siberian hunter-gatherer population which later became part of the foundation of the proto-Indoeuropeans. The direct transition from hunter-gatherer to semi-nomadic pastoralist may have allowed to retain more of the genes responsible for intelligence, especially for visuo-spatial skills (which are per se a hunting adaption which also helped with toolmaking and later STEM research as it allows to visualize things before your mind's eye effectively).
Xavier King
>there's plenty of wilderness where nobody wants to live
where exactly? (that is not protected wildlife preserves)
Carson Garcia
>Civilization is man's punishment for original sin.
I'm not christian but I've intrepreted the Garden of Eden as move from hunter-gathering to agriculture. I think the first agricultural people were well aware of how much more work agriculture was, but it gave them the power advantage of high numbers, so they kept donig it.
Thanks for these!
Elk, bear, deer,... many large animals still out there. Small-game is probably more important. Mammoths were probably never primary source of meat, as even if they had all the salt in the world I don't think they could conserve the meats of a dead mammoth very long. And you can't kill a mammoth every two weeks, they will (or did) go extinct very fast.
DAS RITE.
Nicholas Allen
>this retarded shit again
The things is: you can't build technology based on hunter gatherer lifestyle.
Sure, you will have SOME level of tech but in few generations you will be back at the stone age levels.
And then you know what will happen?
One society that DIDN'T go full retard will come in, kill or enslave you and it will be the end.
For fucks sake, i need to deal with anarcho-primitivists on Sup Forums of all places.
Aaron Flores
Check your discord nibba
Carter Reyes
The advantages of anything depend on what you define as your moral axioms. Once I get to my comp I’ll elaborate.
Ayden Johnson
You do know that there are hunther gatherer tribes still out there, right? Why don't you faggots just move to dark africa or south american jungle?
Oh right. You want some magic comfy cave lifestyle that never fucking existed.
Nolan Williams
>Yukon looks like a nice place, but is it a good place for permaculture?
no
I didn't mean move there, just if I was wanting to do this, I wouldn't do it there, I'd want to be right by the atlantic or pacific in canada so I could have less hardy plants, atlantic has cheaper land and much better bear control
you can get free land for setting up a farm in the yukon, but the people that do it just chop down pine trees and set up a fir tree farm
from what I've researched pastorlism is more practical than agriculture in most of canada
>But if I found a good, like-minded community outside of Finland, I'd might consider it
the idea of living off the land seems to be a politically left and right ideal, but here the secular communes are far left, the only other ones tend to be mennonites or mormons and closed to people outside their faith