Free Will

Why are religious people obsessed with free will? Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.

Consider the following: "the future", which the concept of free will implies that we can in fact manipulate, is comprised of two elements a) the past and b) the laws of physics/nature acting upon a). We can neither control what has already happened, i.e. the past, nor can we bend the laws of physics, they are permanently fixed.

And don't bring up some quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality; if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur, you wouldn't have become a faggot. Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X, which you had no control over in the first place.

Also:
>universe is created
>only rocks, galaxies, suns, etc.
>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
>suddenly humans
>suddenly you can't calculate anything related to the future cuz of muh free will

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Free will isnt really a study of motions and calculating them. Free will generally refers to humans ability to choose between sin and virtue. While many factors may influence our decision, it is still our own to choose.

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Thats right you cant manipulate because of tradtional catholic teachings of freewill.

quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality:
kek

>if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur,
then nothing occured ergo im not a faggot

>Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X,
so i was always a faggot your saying lulz

>which you had no control over in the first place.
i have control and i choose with my freewill not to be a faggot.

>universe is created only rocks, galaxies, suns, ect.
and Angels, men ect

>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
an assumtion, that doesnt make logical sense, where did the bang come from, how does something come from nothing, and how do mutations just happen for no logical reason to form everything.. againg that spaggeti, and iilogical

>suddenly humans
created by an omnipotend intellegent being

>suddenly you can't calculate anything related to the future cuz of muh free will
Yes, you control your future with your god given freewill, heaven or hell.

You make good choices according to god's will, what he wants, examples, chartiy, work, praying, forgivening, becoming a tradtional catholic, going to mass, going to confession, staying in the state of grace then yes, your chance of participating in the beatific vision are high.

Do you own will, do what you want, ehhh, its 50/50 a risk, you not only hurt yourself, but others with your evil ungodly choices, evil comes from mans freewill to sin.

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Free will is a subjective feeling.

I think people have seen free will as a savior from being made into freedom deprived serfs.

it was not billions of years

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Its not a feeling its a reailty..

Right now you have the freewill to listen to me or not, You have the freewill to ignore me or not, you could do an act of charity and listen to me, which would be good becasue its charity is gods will, or you could do what you want, and ignore me if thats what you want

hey there, how olds the earth, is it 10,000 or 6,000?

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Anons winning over the most prominent philosophers of the past. Goddamit I love singularity!

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who me?

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The thing that I doubt is that your choices are unimpeded

Free will doesn't ultinately exist as humans always choose the path which has been percieved to give the most pleasure, long and/or short term. We are slaves to our programming.

>we can neither control what has happened nor bend the laws of physics

but you have the free will to choose how to act upon it. Sup Forums could have continued playing video games and smoking pot, but we all chose to take a stand against what we saw as an affront to all that is good and natural. And we did so in spite of the very real threat of being v&.

Everyone has the free will to be an idiot or to strive for infinity.

not so much, but yeah

No Abrahamic/Semitic religion has a “holy text” that supports free will.

They love to spin their wheels writing long-winded shit though. You have to view the Big 3 as a sad mind-virus. Because it is.

I think you can look at it in terms of the broader concept of "freedom" and the pursuit thereof. Teenagers rebel against their parents in an attempt to prove their independence (mainly to themselves). It follows that free will in religion and fighting for freedoms in politics is an attempt to continue reaffirming to oneself that one is, indeed, a free and independent agent - except instead of in relation to parents, it is to stand out in relation to society as a whole.

>tradtional catholic teaching
every esoteric text describes it the same. What differs are the interpretations given. And in that regard all religions can be boiled down to those that worship the abyss, those who worship THE TRUTH and those who worship a deceptive explanation of THE TRUTH. Unfortunately, THE TRUTH is in itself a bit deceptive because people tend to either read the scripture literally or metaphorically but rarely as both literal and metaphorical at the same time.

yes they are, but if that desires impeded i choose to do something else.

that conderdicts reailty tho, Were not all stupid robots programmed to so one thing like an animal, were rational human beings, you autist, that false teachings gonna get you killed.

how so i destroyed his argument

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And I am arguing that it isn't. I'm arguing that we are controlled by events and happenings around us, think of it like a reflex. When something sudden occurs, you flinch -- this is not your will, nor your "free will", this is a reflex of a previous event in time.

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
This was a rhetorical question, but thanks for answering.

>I have control and I choose with my free will not to be a faggot.
No, I'm saying that it depends on X. What about children who are hurt in their youth? Do they not behaviourally change later in life because of this? Is it their will to behave in this way? I think not.

>an assumption
Well without a God, I explain my world with the theory of the Big Bang and the theory of evolution to account for an alternative creation. We should for argument's sake.

>Teenagers rebel against their parents
Is this not merely an instinct in our species? It certainly is a common trait, isn't it coincidental that so many teenagers chooses this specific way of behaving?

These godless morons believe you dont make everyday choices or make any choices through out life.. very, very delusional and disconnected from reailty becasue thats not how the real world works..

Tradtional catholic teaches, we are rational creators who can think for ourselves, making different life choices everyday of our life's, and be it good or bad, this is reailty and corresponds with reality

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what made you write this if not free will?

>grrr godless morons try to undermine my understanding based on my kikebook!!!!
Not convincing really

Why do thoughts pop into your head? What are urges, cravings, etc?

>very delusional and disconnected from reailty becasue thats not how the real world works..

its laughable how morons take to the 'modern philosophy' that they are taught and never question it. Reality is all about perspective. And your perspective is limited to the definitions you accept to be true. That is what was meant by 'be like as a child'. Approach everything as if you do not know it and must learn it and you will never be deceived.

>No, I'm saying that it depends on X. What about children who are hurt in their youth? Do they not behaviourally change later in life because of this? Is it their will to behave in this way? I think not.
Yes it's within thier freewill.. how are they going to cope with it, good or badly. will they shake it off, or kill someone..

>Well without a God, I explain my world with the theory of the Big Bang and the theory of evolution to account for an alternative creation. We should for argument's sake.
Who was Jesus christ, a real historical man who claimed to be god and the son of god, not only that his teachings are far more rational then the big bang or evolution spegetti theory.

according to them, they were programmed too, like a mindless soulless animal.

urges and cravings are lust for the material. remove their power over you and will know what free will is.

not an argument mate, so i won that discussion.

>its laughable how morons take to the 'modern philosophy' that they are taught and never question it.
yeah thats you, never questioning thier (system) just blindly following it without question.

>Reality is all about perspective.
So a man who believes himself to be a woman is! if you say yes then you just exposed yourself as shill sjw jew boy.

>And your perspective is limited to the definitions you accept to be true. That is what was meant by 'be like as a child'. Approach everything as if you do not know it and must learn it and you will never be deceived.
SO I CAN MAKE UP MY OWN WONDERLAND AND IT WILL BE TRUE!! I DONT NEED PROOF! I DONT NEED TO FOLLOW REALITY!! your promoting autism user....

So animals, like dogs, who are also deeply affected by instincts and cravings, and such, do they have any free will? Or is it just a privilege of humans? If so why or how?

>Why do thoughts pop into your head? What are urges, cravings, etc?
i decern if those urges are good or bad, then i choose to do them or not.

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Well if you STUDY TRADTIONAL CATHOLIC TEACHING YOU WOULD KNOW user!


>do they have any free will?
No

>or is it just a privilege of humans? If so why or how?
It's the image of god user... uhhh so many uneducated in the faith... uhhhh!! anywho, The image of god endows us with reasoning, understanding, comprehension, freewill, and its immortal because its an image of god who lives forever. The soul and the image of god are the same thing, so when some traditional catholic preist says im going to save your soul, he means everything above^.

thats why men are not animals and animal are not men.

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It is an instinct, of course. Man is still a beast, influenced by primal needs and instincts. He is also capable of thought, through which he may reject these things. There is an element of choice.

I disagree with your notion of some predetermined "future". Just because there is no possibility to explore "what if..." scenarios doesn't mean there is no free will - you just have one shot at it and need to accept the consequences and new options of the decisions you make. Time is an endless book being written simultaneously by numerous authors at different points whilst maintaining coherence/continuity.

>explaining a concept of religion with religion
Sorry, that isn't a valid argument. There is no empirical evidence of this. There is, on the other hand, empirical evidence that links us to animals, yet somewhere in the evolutionary process we acquired this trait of "choosing" and "willing" this and that.

Do you have free choice:
*in whether you are born?
*who you find attractive
*when youre hungry, tired, need to shit
*what genes you inherit
*whether you are male/female
*your IQ
*your height, looks, strength

Rather than list everything - why don't you name a single thing that you think you choose freely?

Consciousness and free-will are self-evident, science simply isn't advanced enough to explain how they emerge. I won't treat the reality in front of me as an illusion until it can be PROVEN to be such. Appealing to science's inability to explain the matters of free will and consciousness is merely proof of its current ignorance, not that these do not exist.

Just because there was no scientific explanation for gravity, the day/night cycle, etc. a few hundred years ago did not render these things mere "illusion".

>It is an instinct, of course.
MANS INSTINCTS INCLUDE EATING, SLEEPING, AND SHITING.

>Man is still a beast
Man is Man, beast's are beast's .

>He is also capable of thought, through which he may reject these things. There is an element of choice.
becasue of the image of god/ freewill.

>I disagree with your notion of some predetermined "future".
Death is a predetermined future for all

>Time
is the measurement of motion, motion is the measurement of time.

>endless book
theres an ending just like in life.

>being written simultaneously by numerous authors at different points
everyones making different choices (with freewill) throughout life which will effect everyone

>whilst maintaining coherence/continuity.
Because of our souls, images of god, which gives us consensus.

You might flinch but you still have a choice to punch the person and go to jail or not.

Read: Because once we redpill the normies, their free will will tell them they want to see all cultural marxists hanging from ropes.

This is a shit paradox.

>Could God create a universe where you can choose between right and wrong but never choose wrong.

You choose what to do with this.
Arguably it would be natural for a manlet autistic ugly inbred nigger to be angry at everything and everyone that isn't him, and yet you would see him sometime NOT do so, overcome his own animalistic tendencies toward destruction and domination.
Just like a monk setting himself on fire. If he was merely reacting to his environment, then obviously he would try to put himself off, he would cower from the flame. Yet he does not. He stands defiant against every fiber of his physical being.
That's free will. That's willpower.

>It is an instinct, of course.
MANS INSTINCTS INCLUDE EATING, SLEEPING, AND SHITING.

>Man is still a beast
Man is Man, beast's are beast's .

>He is also capable of thought, through which he may reject these things. There is an element of choice.
becasue of the image of god/ freewill.

>I disagree with your notion of some predetermined "future".
Death is a predetermined future for all

>Time
is the measurement of motion, motion is the measurement of time.

>endless book
theres an ending just like in life.

>being written simultaneously by numerous authors at different points
everyones making different choices (with freewill) throughout life which will effect everyone

>whilst maintaining coherence/continuity.
Because of our souls, images of god, which gives us consensus..

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The reason free will is used in religion is to give religion more power. If religion taught that there was no free will and every thing is decided by God then they wouldn't be able to punish sinners and push their ideas on others because it would actually be God making people sin

he did, if you never want to do wrong, then DO ONLY GOD'S WILL, WHAT HE WANTS!

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Genes -> Behaviour.

A bird, ant and monkey sharing the same env have different behaviours - 100% because of their genes.

All your instincts can be modified by gene editing. And you chose 0% of your genes.

If I build a computer to do A,B,C -- does it have any free will?

>There is no empirical evidence of this.
2000years of culture, history, civilization, jesus christ who historians agree existed..

>There is, on the other hand, empirical evidence that links us to animals
no there isnt, link?

>yet somewhere in the evolutionary process we acquired this trait of "choosing" and "willing" this and that.
becuse it isnt a evoltionary process, its a jesus christ trait..

So say tradtional cathlic teachings arent vaild yet you and others are stealing traditional catholic teachings trying to make cheap rip off version to support your stupid iiraional bigbang and evolution.. Remember whos teachings your followig and riping off pig.

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Its not free will. The manlet is fighting on because he gets more pleasure and avoids pain by doing so.

If after he keeps fighting and losing - he will start to feel less pleasure and more pain by continuing and he will give up.

Its about instinct, pleasure, pain. Its mathematical. Nothing free about it.

>All your instincts can be modified by gene editin
why mutilate yourself or possible kill yourself.
just follow god's will, what he wants, its all good, never evil, evil comes from man's freewill to sin to do ungoldy things.

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if free-will doesn't exist, then why do liberals get so upset about rape, mass shootings, etc?

>I choose where I live.
>I choose what I want to eat.
>I choose to read and educate myself, to meet people of different cultures and backgrounds to enrich my worldviews.
>I choose to work out and increase my strength.

Just because you don't get to choose your starting point doesn't mean you don't get to choose what to strive towards and achieve.

Op and morons believe you dont make everyday choices or make any choices through out life.. thier very, very delusional and disconnected from reailty becasue thats not how the real world works..

>While many factors may influence our decision, it is still our own to choose.
Incorrect. Our wills have been totally corrupted by sin and have left us with no ability to choose virtue. We will choose sin every time, even when performing actions that appear to be externally good. "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one." (Romans 3:10-12) Or as Christ himself would say "It is the Spirit who gives life, the flesh is no help at all" (John 6:63)

The will is only converted to be able to "choose virtue" --that is to do something pleasing to God--after God extends the grace of regeneration to transform the heart. And even then we continue to choose evil, albeit less so as we progressively become more holy as the Spirit sanctifies us further.

>The reason free will is used in religion is to give religion more power.
no its because jesus christ tradtional catholic faith teaches so, he made everything and knows everything, hows does truth give you power, oh thats right because its true.

>If religion taught that there was no free will and every thing is decided by God
You know why, because that wouldnt be true and jesus chrsit only teaches truth.

>then they wouldn't be able to punish sinners and push their ideas on others because it would actually be God making people sin.
I know jesus christs tradtional catholic teachings are making hard for you heretics to deceive.. sry

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>The manlet is fighting on because he gets more pleasure and avoids pain by doing so.
>Gets more pleasure and avoid pains
Sure, if we talk about intellectual satisfaction. But isn't that a choice in itself, to be happy with what you became, rather than seeking pleasure in the flesh and excitation in competition?

sage autistic robot threads
direct them to hegel so they grow the fuck up.

#notall

Calvinism is a deterministic theological model. You're talking about Arminianism.

Free will is a meaningless concept

lesswrong.com/lw/of/dissolving_the_question/

Free will is the right to make your own decisions and to make your own choices, whether right or wrong.

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>Incorrect. Our wills have been totally corrupted by sin and have left us with no ability to choose virtue.
wrong heretic, We may have orginal sin due to adam and eve, which is why we die, makes our urges stronger, makes the flesh/nature rebel against man, and thats why we are born ignorant, without the knowledge of anything.

But we have the ability to choose virtue/god's will, what god wants, or we can choose what we want, our will.

>We will choose sin every time
No we wont, if you understand tradtional catholic doctrine, the difference between god's will and our will, you won't.

>even when performing actions that appear to be externally good. "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one.
Thats material heresy, meaning you did something wrong without knowing it, which could count as a vinal sin, which isnt very bad at all, mortal sins kill your soul, and make you the save of the devil.

>The will is only converted to be able to "choose virtue" --that is to do something pleasing to God-
No the will is always free to choose between good and evil, the problems the teachings your reasoning off of and following..

>that is to do something pleasing to God--after God extends the grace of regeneration to transform the heart
So you better start praying anons, and doing god's will.

>And even then we continue to choose evil,
wrong, you choose to do your own will over god's.

>albeit less so as we progressively become more holy as the Spirit sanctifies us further.
only if you are choosing with your freewill to do god's will and convert to tradtional catholic faith, get baptized, go to confession, go to latin mass, ect.. pray anons, ask the saints and the blessed virgin mary to intercede on your behalf to jesus christ, who listens to his mother more then over you alone.

>Incorrect. Our wills have been totally corrupted by sin and have left us with no ability to choose virtue.
wrong heretic, We may have orginal sin due to adam and eve, which is why we die, makes our urges stronger, makes the flesh/nature rebel against man, and thats why we are born ignorant, without the knowledge of anything.

But we have the ability to choose virtue/god's will, what god wants, or we can choose what we want, our will.

>We will choose sin every time
No we wont, if you understand tradtional catholic doctrine, the difference between god's will and our will, you won't.

>even when performing actions that appear to be externally good. "As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one.
Thats material heresy, meaning you did something wrong without knowing it, which could count as a vinal sin, which isnt very bad at all, mortal sins kill your soul, and make you the save of the devil.

>The will is only converted to be able to "choose virtue" --that is to do something pleasing to God-
No the will is always free to choose between good and evil, the problems the teachings your reasoning off of and following..

>that is to do something pleasing to God--after God extends the grace of regeneration to transform the heart
So you better start praying anons, and doing god's will.

>And even then we continue to choose evil,
wrong, you choose to do your own will over god's.

>albeit less so as we progressively become more holy as the Spirit sanctifies us further.
only if you are choosing with your freewill to do god's will and convert to tradtional catholic faith, get baptized, go to confession, go to latin mass, ect.. pray anons, ask the saints and the blessed virgin mary to intercede on your behalf to jesus christ, who listens to his mother more then over you alone.

Maybe for liberals and non tradtional catholics, but for catholics who live in the real world, jesus christs teachings of freewill matches with reailty perfectly.

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What if there were a being who knew what you would do based on its knowledge of countless patterns and pieces of information which to your lowly mind would be incomprehensible, yet methodologically and scientifically sound nonetheless? Imagine that you decide to eat ice cream for breakfast because of some, again to you incomprehensible, conglomeration of events, beliefs, and experiences amalgamated into a desire for ice cream. Imagine that the being knows just why you made that choice, even if you don't. Does that take away free will? Did you not make the decision based upon the past, your experiences, your morality, your personality, your goals, your persona, your social situation, and on and on into minutiating perpetuity?

Think of it another way: You place a trap for an animal based on your observations of its behavior. You catch it. Did you invalidate the caught animal's free will by predicting what bait would lure it?

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bumping

bump

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bump.....

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Thats right you cant manipulate because of tradtional catholic teachings of freewill.

quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality:
kek

>if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur,
then nothing occured ergo im not a faggot

>Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X,
so i was always a faggot your saying lulz

>which you had no control over in the first place.
i have control and i choose with my freewill not to be a faggot.

>universe is created only rocks, galaxies, suns, ect.
and Angels, men ect

>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
an assumtion, that doesnt make logical sense, where did the bang come from, how does something come from nothing, and how do mutations just happen for no logical reason to form everything.. againg that spaggeti, and iilogical

>suddenly humans
created by an omnipotend intellegent being

>suddenly you can't calculate anything related to the future cuz of muh free will
Yes, you control your future with your god given freewill, heaven or hell.

You make good choices according to god's will, what he wants, examples, chartiy, work, praying, forgivening, becoming a tradtional catholic, going to mass, going to confession, staying in the state of grace then yes, your chance of participating in the beatific vision are high.

Do you own will, do what you want, ehhh, its 50/50 a risk, you not only hurt yourself, but others with your evil ungodly choices, evil comes from mans freewill to sin.

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bumpp

This question is basically answered in the film the matrix by the architect: youtu.be/cHZl2naX1Xk

The Architect: Hello, Neo.
Neo: Who are you?
The Architect: I am the Architect. I created the Matrix. I have been waiting for you. You have many questions and though the process has altered your consciousness, you remain irrevocably human. Ergo, some of my answers you will understand, some of them you will not. Concordantly, while your first question may be the most pertinent, you may or may not realize, it is also the most irrelevant.
Neo: Why am I here?
The Architect: Your life is the sum of a remainder of an unbalanced equation inherent to the programming of the Matrix. You are the eventuality of an anomaly, which despite my sincerest efforts I have been unable to eliminate from what is otherwise a harmony of mathematical precision. While it remains a burden assiduously avoided, it is not unexpected, and thus not beyond a measure of control, which has led you, inexorably, here.
Neo: You haven't answered my question.
The Architect: Quite right. ...Interesting, that was quicker than the others.
Neo Monitors: Others? What others? How many? Answer me.
The Architect: The Matrix is older than you know. I prefer counting from the emergence of one integral anomaly to the emergence of the next, in which case this is the sixth version.
Neo Monitors: Five ones before me? Bullshit. Liar!
Neo: There are only two possible explanations: either no one told me…or no one knows.
The Architect: Precisely. As you are undoubtedly gathering, the anomaly is systemic, creating fluctuations in even the most simplistic equations.
Neo Monitors: You can't control me! I'm going to smash you into fucking bits! FUCKING DEAD! I'll fucking kill you! I can say whatever I want! You can't make me do that! You old, white, prick!
Neo: … Choice. The problem is choice.

>tfw to ingellitent to believe in god

Achilles races a tortoise
For Achilles to pass the tortoise he must first reach where the tortoise is
But when he reaches the place where the tortoise just was, the tortoise is now further ahead
Therefore Achilles will never overtake the tortoise
Ergo
Achilles loses

This paradox does not work in real life because space is either discrete or an infinite amount of instances of something can exist in finite time.

Your rational argument is of a similar tone. We cannot change the future because we cannot control the past you assume that we can make a hard distinction between past and future with present in the middle. Then because the causes of your actions are in the past and your actions create the future, the past creates the future. Or because achilles is always behind the tortoise, and the finish line is in front of the tortoise, achilles can never pass the tortoise.

Idk if this makes sense to anyone maybe I shouldnt post this but I'm anonymous anyway so fuck it

More like
>tfw to uneducated to believe in god

Luther was right. Free will after the fall exists in name only.

pls dont use fantasy Hollywood movies as arguments

some Greek warfare huh


>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Thats right you cant manipulate because of tradtional catholic teachings of freewill.

quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality:
kek

>if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur,
then nothing occured ergo im not a faggot

>Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X,
so i was always a faggot your saying lulz

>which you had no control over in the first place.
i have control and i choose with my freewill not to be a faggot.

>universe is created only rocks, galaxies, suns, ect.
and Angels, men ect

>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
an assumtion, that doesnt make logical sense, where did the bang come from, how does something come from nothing, and how do mutations just happen for no logical reason to form everything.. againg that spaggeti, and iilogical

>suddenly humans
created by an omnipotend intellegent being

>suddenly you can't calculate anything related to the future cuz of muh free will
Yes, you control your future with your god given freewill, heaven or hell.

You make good choices according to god's will, what he wants, examples, chartiy, work, praying, forgivening, becoming a tradtional catholic, going to mass, going to confession, staying in the state of grace then yes, your chance of participating in the beatific vision are high.

Do you own will, do what you want, ehhh, its 50/50 a risk, you not only hurt yourself, but others with your evil ungodly choices, evil comes from mans freewill to sin.

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People like to think they have free will because they cannot face up to the fact that their will is evil and they are Satan's bitch. It's pride. "I can stop sinning at any point. I just have to try harder." This is when the devil tempts them and knocks them back down.

The truth is that only Christ can save them and any righteousness they get is because he has given it to them.

follow a godless heretic teachings then, its your freewill, your choice.

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The way you post in this thread (desperate bumping, adamant repetition, posting the same thing twice since you forgot to add some stupid image) leads me to believe you are deeply troubled.

If you think your will is free, why do your need to confess your sins regularly? Why does this sacrament exist? Simply choose not to do them and you will have nothing to confess.
But you can't because your will isn't free.

>A couple of brothers who cannot even accurately perceive that they are men offer deep insight into the great truths.

People like to think they have free will because they cannot face up to the fact that their will is evil and they are Satan's bitch. It's pride. "I can stop sinning at any point. I just have to try harder." This is when the devil tempts them and knocks them back down.

Not me i the will of jesus Christ's traditional catholic teachings, i choose to pray, i choose to go to confession, i choose to forgive my enemies, ect, i choose to do gods will, will you.

>The truth is that only Christ can save them and any righteousness they get is because he has given it to them.
we choose to save our self's smart guy, i'll do the will of jesus Christ's teachings and hopefully be saved, you choose to believe that theirs no freewill of god, and probably will be damned, but hey thats your choice

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Kek’d and rekt

Free will is your ability to make a choice in how you want to act in the here and now. Rather than a robot, you can choose to obey or choose to break the law.

You simply fundamentally misunderstand free will. You are also stuck in 1800's Newtonian determanistic linear thinking, when science and physics have long moved past that to probabilistic thinking.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Having the mentality that you are in control of your fate as opposed to pre-destined gives you more motivation to try, thus more effort = better outcomes.
Even if it's all pre-determined, having the idea you can change things, improves your odds of changing things.

Come now, Revolutions and Reloaded were mediocre at best but let’s not pretend the first matrix movie wasn’t a work of genius. So many interesting themes explored in so many interesting ways

The wachowskis are stinky kikes I will concede

By the way, we actually can't do this:
>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe

Look up the "three body problem" to understand the bare basic beginningsof why you can't predict the cosmos on a large time scale. Even asteroids a few years out are given probabilities to if they will hit is or not (windows of chance) since we can't know exactly where they will go with precision. The farther out in time, the lower precision gets. It is also why we never predicted the Pioneer and Voyager phenomenon.

Your understanding of the nature of science, math, and reality is simply uneducated. Easy to fix with some study!

Deeply troubled people need the truth and im here to give it too them, truth first user

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Thats right you cant manipulate because of tradtional catholic teachings of freewill.

quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality:
kek

>if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur,
then nothing occured ergo im not a faggot

>Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X,
so i was always a faggot your saying lulz

>which you had no control over in the first place.
i have control and i choose with my freewill not to be a faggot.

>universe is created only rocks, galaxies, suns, ect.
and Angels, men ect

>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
an assumtion, that doesnt make logical sense, where did the bang come from, how does something come from nothing, and how do mutations just happen for no logical reason to form everything.. againg that spaggeti, and iilogical

>suddenly humans
created by an omnipotend intellegent being

>suddenly you can't calculate anything related to the future cuz of muh free will
Yes, you control your future with your god given freewill, heaven or hell.

You make good choices according to god's will, what he wants, examples, chartiy, work, praying, forgivening, becoming a tradtional catholic, going to mass, going to confession, staying in the state of grace then yes, your chance of participating in the beatific vision are high.

Do you own will, do what you want, ehhh, its 50/50 a risk, you not only hurt yourself, but others with your evil ungodly choices, evil comes from mans freewill to sin.

Attached: 3wr5hja34qhjaq34hjq3yq3h.png (771x436, 675K)

thats just a rant of infantile sophistry and fallacies

right,....

then we are unable to "choose" and believe in Christ.....
yeah im sure the Word of God has nothing to say about that being nonsense

Both Peter and Paul specifically talk about pre-destination. That doesn't change your ability to personally choose what to do right here right now. But from the perspective of outside our linear time, the book is already written, and all choices have already been made. An author can work at the end and beginning of a book at the same time.

>the laws of physics/nature acting upon
time exists in the dimension above ours ya dummy we can only comprehend it on third dimensional terms.
life is predetermined in that God is beyond the third dimension and so God has lived through every moment of time simultaneously.
isnt that obvious?

If you think your will is free, why do your need to confess your sins regularly?
Becasue its god's will, this is what HE WANTS! its an act of charity and it beifits the soul with graces, regaurdelss if you have comited a mortal sin or not you twit

>Simply choose not to do them and you will have nothing to confess.
But you can't because your will isn't free.
LULZ Guess what im going to do on easter sunday!!!! GUESS... im gonna go to confession and recieve christ, BECAUE I CHOOSE TOO! hahahahahaah what a loser u are, reailty is we are rational creators who can think for ourselves, making different life choices everyday of our life's, and be it good or bad, this is reailty and corresponds with reality

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It gets even more interesting when one realizes we are consciously 0 dimensional in time (we exist and act in a single point in time), while we interact with one dimensional time (time line with past, present (our 0 dimensional point), and future). We can't stretch ourselves into the past or future, being 0 dimensional, and so causality as we know it is simply a consequence of being a fixed point in moving 1D time.

But what happens if something is higher in time dimensionality? A being that was 1D in time would be able to be in all places along a time line. 2D in time and now you can move freely between 1D lines of time. 3D in time and now you agree free to traverse 2D planes of 1D time lines. 4D and the brain melts as we have no context.

We may be 3D in space, but when it comes to time we are the lowest you can get. So if God is outside our time He just has to be 2D and up in time dimensions, let alone infinite.

Shut the hell up, Adam, and stop ignoring the point.
Our norge friend pointed out if you had free will, you could choose not to sin, meaning you wouldn't have to go to confession, even if you chose to.

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Thats right you cant manipulate because of tradtional catholic teachings of freewill.

quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality:
kek

>if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur,
then nothing occured ergo im not a faggot

>Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X,
so i was always a faggot your saying lulz

>which you had no control over in the first place.
i have control and i choose with my freewill not to be a faggot.

>universe is created only rocks, galaxies, suns, ect.
and Angels, men ect

>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
an assumtion, that doesnt make logical sense, where did the bang come from, how does something come from nothing, and how do mutations just happen for no logical reason to form everything.. againg that spaggeti, and iilogical

>suddenly humans
created by an omnipotend intellegent being

>suddenly you can't calculate anything related to the future cuz of muh free will
Yes, you control your future with your god given freewill, heaven or hell.

You make good choices according to god's will, what he wants, examples, chartiy, work, praying, forgivening, becoming a tradtional catholic, going to mass, going to confession, staying in the state of grace then yes, your chance of participating in the beatific vision are high.

Do you own will, do what you want, ehhh, its 50/50 a risk, you not only hurt yourself, but others with your evil ungodly choices, evil comes from mans freewill to sin.

Attached: 4yg3gyAQ#$hya.png (882x856, 655K)

Free will only exists for the few who earn it by proving they can beat the controllers

The controllers are weak but they have a strong argument: "If a being can't overcome this, it's just going to hurt itself with free will"

>Our norge friend pointed out if you had free will, you could choose not to sin, meaning you wouldn't have to go to confession, even if you chose to.
I answered your point you just read over it so ill repeat now pay attention..
Yeah would have to go to confession regardless of committing a mortal sin, guess why? becasue its the will of god to always go to confession there you go.. lulz, you know nothing of god's will, educate yourself with jesus Christs faith.

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One last thought; God only has to be 1D in time to be both all knowing and all present (with no beginning or end) from our 0D perspective. Doesn't explain anything with being all powerful though, but just goes to show how small we are. Of course, God must be outside the nature of these scales anyways to have created dimensionality of time and space to begin with, but it is a fun thought about the nature of our puny existence.

God's request is for us to confess if we have sinned. Hence it is written "if you confess" you will be forgiven. Some never choose to confess, but all have sinned. So you are mistaken about it being "God's will" in any absolute sense.

god is all powerful, he chooses not to control our freewill, he is still an omnipotent being.

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Thats right you cant manipulate because of tradtional catholic teachings of freewill.

quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality:
kek

>if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur,
then nothing occured ergo im not a faggot

>Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X,
so i was always a faggot your saying lulz

>which you had no control over in the first place.
i have control and i choose with my freewill not to be a faggot.

>universe is created only rocks, galaxies, suns, ect.
and Angels, men ect

>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
an assumtion, that doesnt make logical sense, where did the bang come from, how does something come from nothing, and how do mutations just happen for no logical reason to form everything.. againg that spaggeti, and iilogical

>suddenly humans
created by an omnipotend intellegent being

>suddenly you can't calculate anything related to the future cuz of muh free will
Yes, you control your future with your god given freewill, heaven or hell.

You make good choices according to god's will, what he wants, examples, chartiy, work, praying, forgivening, becoming a tradtional catholic, going to mass, going to confession, staying in the state of grace then yes, your chance of participating in the beatific vision are high.

Do you own will, do what you want, ehhh, its 50/50 a risk, you not only hurt yourself, but others with your evil ungodly choices, evil comes from mans freewill to sin.

Attached: 4yg3gyAQ#$hya.png (882x856, 655K)

Yes, I just mean God being higher dimensionally in time would not be the reason He is God and omnipotent. But it would grant omniscience and omnipresence in a basic sense.

>God's request is for us to confess if we have sinned.
no its regardless because it gives us even more graces to combat the devil and his lies.
and because its gods will.

>Hence it is written "if you confess" you will be forgiven. Some never choose to confess, but all have sinned. So you are mistaken about it being "God's will" in any absolute sense.

Hows going to confession bad? that sounds like something Satan would say, there's nothing wrong with going to confession becasue it only strengthens us, and becasue its god's will to make it to heaven.

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

>Logically it doesn't even follow that we should be capable to manipulate the future in this way.
Thats right you cant manipulate because of tradtional catholic teachings of freewill.

quantum-mechanic bullshit, let's use rationality:
kek

>if X never happened, Y wouldn't occur, and if Y didn't occur,
then nothing occured ergo im not a faggot

>Ergo, you being a faggot is ultimately caused by X,
so i was always a faggot your saying lulz

>which you had no control over in the first place.
i have control and i choose with my freewill not to be a faggot.

>universe is created only rocks, galaxies, suns, ect.
and Angels, men ect

>for literally billions of years you can calculate any future movement in the universe
an assumtion, that doesnt make logical sense, where did the bang come from, how does something come from nothing, and how do mutations just happen for no logical reason to form everything.. againg that spaggeti, and iilogical

Attached: 4yg3gyAQ#$hya.png (882x856, 552K)

Why don't you choose not to sin? Is it gods will for us to sin?
People always say "oh you were mugged/raped/murdered, just part of gods plan!"
Was it gods plan to give that criminal free will to do those things?

You are now no longer paying attention. The statement "if" can only exist if more than one outcome is possible. And you would claim that all people confess their sins spontaneously, and there are not those who refuse to do so?

Yep, the criminal has free will to do evil. Just as you have free will to be that criminal. The problem is people forget that free will does not mean free from consequences, good or bad. You do a crime, you hurt others, that is your free will, but then you must pay justice for harming others through the use if your free will. Whoops.

>Why don't you choose not to sin? Is it gods will for us to sin?
NO

>People always say "oh you were mugged/raped/murdered, just part of gods plan!"
the men who mugged/raped/murdered, that was thier wanting, thier sin! evil.. not god's, did god or will god work around there sin, absolutely.

>Was it gods plan to give that criminal free will to do those things?
Who's incontrol of that man freewill, god or the man's, the answers the man, MAN CREATED THAT EVIL BECAUSE HE WANTED TO SIN, WHY DO YOU LOOK AT PORN, BECAUSE GOD FORCED YOU, THAT ISNT GOD'S WILL, NO YOU CHOOSE TO LOOK AT PORN NOT GOD, GOD HATES PORN HE HATE IMPUREITY.

>And you would claim that all people confess their sins spontaneously, are not those who refuse to do so?
Again it depends on the indivual's freewill and thier knowledge, do they understand nothing but good comes from confessions? or do they reason like you... I would go because i know god's will, you wouldnt becasue you dont understand that only good come out of going to confession.

>God's request is for us to confess if we have sinned.
no its regardless because it gives us even more graces to combat the devil and his lies.
and because its gods will.

>Hence it is written "if you confess" you will be forgiven. Some never choose to confess, but all have sinned. So you are mistaken about it being "God's will" in any absolute sense.

Hows going to confession bad? that sounds like something Satan would say, there's nothing wrong with going to confession becasue it only strengthens us, and becasue its god's will to make it to heaven.

>Why are religious people obsessed with free will?
Because thats how reailty works, just like it says it does in tradtional catholic teaching.

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