VEGETA IS THE HERO

>40-something years of "I wanna fight strong guys!"

vs.

>"Hahaha! Die, scum! I'll wish for immortality!"
>"Let's work together to take out the greater evil. Then I'll kill you all."
>"Grrr, fine. I'll racemix with you, woman."
>"I'm...proud of my son."
>"I love my wife."
>"I'll wish you all back when I win."

When did you realize that Goku's story ended when he won that WMA tournament against Piccolo and the entire story has been about Vegeta and Piccolo becoming good people ever since?
Goku is a plot device to ensure they keep moving forward while everyone else is forced to learn to cope with being incapable of reaching that plateau he continues to set.
The Cell Games were a minor Gohan hero arc but the rest has been 100% Vegeta.
Prove me wrong.
>u cant

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Goku is already perfect so there's no need for 6 arcs of character development just to make second fiddle status in the rival harem.

Goku is far from perfect and part of the joke is that he's never, ever going to overcome his mental weaknesses. He's a living, breathing plot mechanism.

>40-something years of "I wanna fight strong guys!"
He's more nuanced than that in the manga, that's mostly Toeishit

If Vegeta was the hero, then he would've spared Nappa and allow him to live. They would've adjusted to earth. I can see Nappa tapping Launch to cuck Tien and keep her relevant.

It's funny you suck on Vegeta's cock so much, yet you forget his best lines from the Buu Saga, from his fight with Goku and when he's watching Goku fight Kid Buu.

Goku also has more to him. If it was just about fighting strong guys, he'd have fought Cell to death. And he wouldn't have minded when Krillin was killed.

Probably true but is Goku's development since he became an adult even 1/10th of what either Vegeta or Piccolo has gone through since they were brought into the picture? That's what everyone needs to realize. Goku is the exact same character he was when Raditz showed up or at least what he was after he fought Vegeta for the first time, at the absolute latest.

I disagree. He doesn't pull a 180 like Vegeta or Piccolo for obvious reasons but he grows into a teacher of some sort. Instead of being an autist like in super he feels like someone dependable and a role model.
Not great but much better than a plot device desu.

Goku did underwent character development. Suffering a heart attack mid battle against the Androids made him realize that he wasn't going to be there forever to protect Earth and wanted Gohan, or Goten to step up. Problem was that neither of his sons were prepared so he had to rise from the dead to protect Earth again.

...

There have been a few times when he knew he wasn't the strongest fighter on their side so he didn't push it to the death immediately, as you both stated. That's true but it doesn't mean his character has changed at all. When did he ever do anything extraordinary in the story when he wasn't the only hope to win at that specific moment? Exactly.

I didn't include every single "great Vegeta line" obviously because his development has been like 20 stages long. Just wanted to get the topic going. If you can't actually argue against my points and would rather get butthurt because you know I'm right, you can just click back to the catalog, faggot.

Very dumb post. Sorry.

That's fair but that was the only time we ever got any hint of him aging or being aware of his own mortality and then it was right back to old Goku when he gets revived. He's had his moments, sure, but he's never even come close to growing up and he's still somewhat pathetic when it comes to killing (only other great moment I can recall to refute this is when he's forced to time-warp blast Golden Frieza which was obviously an awesome moment for his character).

Dubs don't lie.

Well, there wasn't really anything threatening Earth after Majin Buu, so Goku could afford to relax and enjoy life for the first time since Radditz appeared. In Super he gets a job as a farmer to pay the bills and grows into a grandfather. Even with the appearance of Beerus and the Universe 6 Tournament, there wasn't much threatening Earth till Zamasu showed up.

You plebians.

Goku ist a genius among men.
His accomplishmentz in tze martial artz are of tzee highest order. It iz no wonder that such lowly creaturez as you cannot zee that. Goku doesn't need more character development. Tze beauty of his advancements in honing and cultivating tze science of fighting is all that matters.
He iz of tze same grandeur as Einstein, Nietzsche or Marx. Truly a wonder that he has not cut off his ear yet! The fighting community rumbles with his scientific triumph.
And yet you peazantz deny him out of pityful ignorance.

More like he has these scenes that show him being extremely composed, almost like ascending in a buddhistic way. That's pretty interesting. He's not just strong, he's that inspiration for everyone.

He's more static than Veggie/Piccolo but that doesn't make him worse in my opinion.

He never really does anything human because he wants to though. It's always because "if I don't, ChiChi will beat me :'(" Krillin and 17 are the only ones apparently who realize that their ridiculous fighting skills can be used to essentially create peace on Earth for everyone else. Hell, I'd argue that even 17 is a better character than Goku now. He's definitely more entertaining, beating up Sailor Moon ripoffs.

I-I-I'm sorry for n-not realizing before. Forgive me.

Gohan had that moment too when he went SS2 and I strongly suspect that Vegeta has figured out UI already based on the evidence leading up to and during the tournament. We also see Piccolo doing advanced mind training things. Goku's moments always shine the brightest because it's just how the story plays out but I don't think it's unique at all to him. Also, for the record, I like Goku, I really do. I am just tired of expecting something new out of him. 99% of his entertainment value comes from a new transformation at any given time. He's one of if not the least interesting character in the story.

Nope, Dragon Ball is Goku's story. Going through significant dynamic character growth doesn't make Vegeta the hero of DB anymore than it makes Kaiba the hero of Yu-Gi-Oh! Toriyama felt compelled to keep him around and to keep the series going, so inevitably the character would have to change like others before him. What distinguishes Vegeta is how long it took for him to make that transition from evil to good, which does make sense in retrospect because of the kind of character Vegeta was.

And unlike what so many people erroneously believe, "character development" isn't restricted to characters doing incredible 180s. The character of Goku is continually built upon throughout the Z portion of the story. Goku sparing Vegeta for an explicitly selfish reason added to the character. Goku eventually accepting his Saiyan heritage added to the character. Goku sparing Frieza multiple times despite all he had done added to the character. And so on. In fact, many of the things people bitch about are things that fleshed out the character and are what make him so interesting in the first place.

Migatte no Gokui reminded me of this Goku a little. It felt as if even Beerus was inspired, and Whis was sort of amazed and amused.

I get where you're coming from. Goku's coming of age story was a while ago, in the original DB. Then he had a second one in the Saiyan+Namek arcs which upped the stakes and it was awesome.

From that point there's not much else to do with him, so Toriyama makes him "the dependable wise guy looking for a successor" with a touch of "silly monkey" in the Cell and Buu arcs. It's static. But he pulls that role pretty well if you ask me, being always one step ahead and all. He just can't carry everything by himself due to the nature of the role he has to take.

Now in DBS that's another thing, he's just autistic Luffy. Vegeta is flanderized too but human enough to still be good.

I get what you're saying but I still don't think Goku has changed nearly at all. Him going from "I'm a human" to "I'm a Saiyan raised on Earth" to "I'm a Saiyan (*whispers* from Earth) are just matter of fact things he's seemed to accept because Vegeta is constantly nagging him. He's no more interested in the Universe 6 Saiyans than he is someone stronger like Hit or Jiren. In fact, power precedes race unlike for Vegeta who has seemingly shifted around between the two and has now fully embraced that race comes first (proven by working with Cabba, obviously).

I pretty much 100% agree with you.I'll be shocked if we never see Vegeta have his moment when they've built him all the way up into the better character.

t. retarded edgy chirudo

It doesn't mean much to rule like 6 saiyans. He wants to conquer Sadala.

Oh, I personally don't care about Super, they can do whatever. Accepting he is indeed a Saiyan is important not just because he grew apart from that culture but because of their general nature (cruel and ruthless). He accepts what he is without allowing it to define who he is, which is possibly why he kept sparing Frieza.

Goku's core character remains the same through the story, but I don't know how people can say the character received no development while ironically bringing up all the things to added to the character and help distinguish the man in the second half from the boy in the first. Not all characters have be notably dynamic and do 180s, there's more to the writing of characters than that.

*cruel and ruthless
And wrathful.

Remember when Goku actually felt afraid of powerful opponents?

Why is he so based?

you're right, I can't


Vegeta is the absolute star of dragon ball and has the largest fanbase of the series

Doesn't even have to win significant fights and is still a fan favorite to this day. His only flaw is having writer that hates him, but someone has to make Goku look even greater than he already is.

LOL NO.

That's super playing with your mentality.

Goku consolidates his personality A LOT and turns into a mature man by the end of Z.

There are numerous moments Goku shows he is now a grown man, alpha and takes no shit, like when he tells Vegeta to his face he is stronger, like when he fights everyone on the Freeza saga, even when he meets Goten, his attitude is alpha-like, he pushes people aside to come to the encounter of his son. That is attiude


Plus, the moment he raises his hand to the kaioshin during the boo saga is the peak of his masculinity.
Fuck super, real saiyans died on Z

Yes, I mean, when was the last time you heard someone that wasn't a child say Goku was their favourite? Or someone that wasn't hispanic say they liked Gohan the best?


Vegeta owns dragon ball, sadly gook money maker akira hates him, I hope someone one day buys the rights and writes something decent, because super is utter garbage

I do like Goku, I never really appreciate him until he arrives at that perfect moment and kicks ass, but hes been jobbing too much in super. Moments like taking out Recoome in 1 hit or toying with Nappa are my favorite.

Okay Goku may be a little alpha but check this out

youtube.com/watch?v=FgU-Oxo-zJA

can't compare plebs to the king


no one has higher testosterone than vegeta, I mean look at his hairline

>Plus, the moment he raises his hand to the kaioshin during the boo saga is the peak of his masculinity.
Even Vegeta was taken aback. Goku threatened to kill an innocent person long before a protagonist like Gon did it.

now that's someone I'd call my favourite character

Goku wants to be a great martial artist. Unlike 17, Krillin, and Gohan who want to get real jobs to provide with their families, Goku wants to refine his techniques and boost his strength while farming on the side. He would rather be a galaxy traveling and famous martial artist if he had the chance. It's just that Toei gave up the idea of Goku becoming a teacher after GT.

cultural enrichment of sayians by humanity

Vegeta is a Prison Bitch.

What do you mean? Super just reverted Goku back to the way he was before King Piccolo saga: Arrogant, cocky, brash, reckless, and crazy. It's just that most of the characters introduce in Z don't translate well to original Dragonball's tone.

Goku's character was always centered around improving himself and becoming the best. After Piccolo, he achieved his goal and life stagnated for him unitl Raditz showed up and he was introduced to the Saiyans. A whole level beyond him came out of nowhere and he felt legitimately scared. After Vegeta though, Goku clearly had no desire to be the best anymore, he's just been chasing that feeling of excitement from fighting someone so far past him. That's what ultimately ruined him.

>over analyzing a shonen manga/anime

Look, I like Dragon Ball like every latinamerican, but even I know that you cannot think Akira had a big plan behind Dragon Ball story. It's good, enjoyable and keep it like that. Vegeta is different than Goku and that's it.

I bet you are one of those faggots that make and university thesis about Evangelion. Your kind disgust me.

I don't know about all that but he is definitely the more heroic, and even more relatable and "human", character in Super. Though I feel this is less to do with his development and more with Goku becoming a parody of himself. It's odd to think about considering Z started with Goku undoubtedly as our hero fighting to rescue his son and then protect the Earth and Vegeta literally as an alien who was a threat to Earth, but between Vegeta insisting on being there for the birth of his daughter while Goku reveals that he doesn't know his own sons' birthdays, and Goku absentmindedly considering using the all-powerful Super Dragon Balls to get his wife something nice or fight someone really strong and then Vegeta revealing that he plans to bring back the destroyed universes (or at least U6), Vegeta is definitely both the more relatable and more heroic of the two.

he had everything planed until freeza
everything went downhill from there

He didn't even plan that far ahead. Akira writes by the day.

>muh mass murderer gets turned into an emasculated trophy husband
identifying tumblrinas has never been easier

No, he even admited to building figurines and drawing chapters the day before they were due with zero planing, only going by how he felt the story should go.

>40-something years of "I wanna fight strong guys!"
Pilaf arc Goku just got kind of dragged along because of his grandpa telling him to be nice to girls
Red Ribbon arc Goku got involved because of multiple reasons, probably Goku at his most heroic since he stood up against multiple injustices
King Piccolo arc Goku was out for revenge/justice
Saiyan arc Goku was fighting for his planet and his family

Once he let Vegeta go then he became "HURR DURR STRONG DUDES" and even then he didn't pussyfoot around as much until after Namek. I hate tvtropes but Goku was definitely "Flanderized", it just took longer than most people think

>stays dead for 7 years because he knows he attracts trouble
>helps contribute to the revival of the being who eventually destroys earth
>intervenes briefly but only plays with Buu
>teaches his kindergarten-age child a potentially deadly technique when he himself didn't set out on his own journey until he was almost twice his age
Fuck the Buu arc so much, Goku was at his shittiest there. I think my high tolerance of Super is influenced by my acknowledgement of what a shit show the Buu saga was.

Good father, good husband

>Causes a multiversal tournament of death
>Goku pretty much goes: YOLO (Not really though thanks dragon balls)!