>almost every shounen anime in existence has a main conflict about whether talent or hard work are the key to success
>in real life it's neither. Luck and connections matter way more than anything else.
Can someone explain to me why the fuck is this theme so common and ubiquitous in anime? Why do the Japanese have an obsession with debating the merits of diligence/talent?
>Luck and connections matter way more than anything else
retard. those only matter if one of the others is in place before it. What good is it being friends with dr.dre if you can't rap for shit? saying something this retarded, it's obvious you're a sour little bitch who thinks everything is handed to people.
user, you're pretty silly if you think hard work and talent are the key to success. That's only true in very specific professions, such as pro-athletes, but in that case every single individual there is also talented and hardworking, so distinguishing between them is pointless.
On the reverse, even if you're talented and work hard, that doesn't mean you'll be successful. There are plenty of amazing writers and creators out there who obviously are immensely gifted in their craft and put many hours of their lives to it, yet never achieve notable success. There are also plenty of authors who aren't very talented and don't especially put a lot of work in, yet are world famous.
The binary choice that anime presents is complete nonsense and is a distraction from how reality actually works.
because shonen are for children. what is a good message for children? even if you are not talented you can achieve your dreams by trying really hard
obviously naruto failed at this but that was the intention
>you're pretty silly if you think hard work and talent are the key to success
and you're pretty silly if you think only luck and connections are. You seem to be ignoring the point I made.
>even if you're talented and work hard, that doesn't mean you'll be successful
I agree. that's not a counterargument to my point in any way.
>but in that case every single individual there is also talented and hardworking, so distinguishing between them is pointless.
it's not though, because as I just said, luck and connections only matter if the other two are in place before it. Yes they're all talented, so the most connected and lucky ones win over the others. But do you think if some fatass who's never played walked into the field he'd just get "lucky" and beat out all the other linebackers? would I get lucky and become a structural engineer with no prior education just cause my dad owns an engineering company? is a highschool dropout just going to one day just randomly discover an efficient solution to the traveling salesman problem? Yes user, it's all just luck.
you're a salty child.
Doesn't naruto kind of underhanded say this? a real life lesson right here folks.
not really. shounen don't really need a luck factor cause success is just "can you beat the bad guy" for the most part, not "can you beat the bad guy and get 1m pay-per-view buys for the fight".
Because this is how japan society work OP.
Don't forget that shonen has a very specific target.
And i'm talking about japan, but this is kinda true for asia in general.
You are nothing until proven, when your prove it theres always room for improvement, everything bad that happens into your life is your fault and only your fault, you have to be the best at what you do or die trying, or don't bother live.
Doesn't matter how hard you work or how good you are if nobody notices it. And people usually go for people they know or are recommended by others over an anonymous "hard worker".
I dunno user, if I can make it to medschool while being this stupid, it means hard work is rewarding for every single person out there.
maybe it depends on what field ure on
>almost every shounen anime in existence has a main conflict about whether talent or hard work are the key to success
no it doesn't, stop thinking your shit series represents shonen as a whole narutard
You sound like sour faggot that never even tried to seriously work hard for anything in life and now complains about lucky kids he saw on tv or net
I feel like i'm speaking in circles here...I already answered that point
I think Dragonball started the trend with Goku growing from monkey boy living out in the woods to world's strongest martial artist thru hard work. He did have access to the best teachers, but needed to work diligently to learn and perfect their techniques.Many shonen artists were inspired by Goku's path to power and applied it to their own works.
Naruto just happened to be one of the works inspired by Dragonball, but missed the point of the original work. The protagonists are byproducts of eugenics experiments gone horribly wrong, or plans to weaponize the tail beasts for the good of the village. Naruto is the perfect example of this because he's the Fourth Hokage's son, reincarnation of one of the Sages, and the Chosen Child destined to bring peace. This makes him less average, and more of a cold calculated plan to create the ultimate ninja, even if he did earn the rank of Hokage thru hard work.
Yukari was straight about it.
Luck + connections + genetic talent + hard work = success
Getting accepted into medschool has to do with your resume is and who you know, much more so than how competent you would be as a doctor. These kind of educations and qualifications aren't success in themselves -- they are just the minimum barrier to even compete. There are tons of people who would likely make far better doctors than you, but never get accepted.
That might be applicable for getting hired in this field, but getting into medschool is all about merit.
Happening to be a rapper when you know Dr. Dre would be the luck part you fucking massive faggot
>work hard
Only people with shit DNA work hard.
I'm sorry to inform you but in actual 1st world nations. Talent and Hard Work go miles.
In Bosnia they go as far as whos your uncle.
You can see this by unemployment statistics. A country that have extremely low unemployment is usually very rewarding towards hard work.
>luck and connections matter way more
Wrong actually
You're just a burgerfat
Medschool and all STEMspergery is an extension of burgerfattery and capitalism.
>Luck and connections matter way more than anything else.
No, what matters the most nearly all the time is main character plot armor.
How SPECIFICALLY do medical schools discriminate against these better doctors?
You telling me the poor uneducated fucks who can't afford to pay for it would have been better doctors? Or are you just referencing that there could be people who could be better doctors but don't want to be? Because it sounds like the former, in which case you're probably retarded or consoling yourself.
>world's strongest martial artist through hard work
>not by being a literal alien with superhuman strength and fighting instincts
And in Naruto it was complete bullshit because Naruto was supposed to be the "hard work" guy, but is the son of the previous Hokage with a weapon of mass destruction at his disposal.
Naruto doesn't achieve anything through hard work. He uses cheats and talent.
He talents his way into learning shadow clones and then uses those to cheat his way to strength in everything else. And it's a double cheat because he can only use clones in that way because of the 9 tailed fox.
Naruto showed luck, talent and connections matter and fuck hard work
The hard worker was Rock Lee, as everyone who ever interacted with him pointed out. All that work and he wasn't even able to make you remember him. That says it all.
>Getting accepted into medschool has to do with your resume is and who you know
What country is this? I just go there and take a test this is 60% of the score and 40% is my high school scores in relevant subjects.
Who do you have to know to get into med school?
How it works in Croatia
In Croatia, there are four out of seven universities that offer a medical degree, the University of Zagreb (offers medical studies in English), University of Rijeka, University of Split (also offers medical studies in English), and the University of Osijek. The Medical schools are a faculties of those four universities. Medical students enroll into medical school after finishing secondary education, typically after a Gymnasium, or after a four-year nursing school, or any other high school lasting four years. During the application process, their high school grades, and the grades of their matriculation exam at the end of high school (Matura) and the score at the obligatory admission exam are taken into account, and the best students are enrolled.
Reminder that you're a faggot if you don't have both.
>Hard work
Be our corporate slave
>Genious & talent
Be our best corporate slave
>Luck & connection
Only those we allow you to interact
Ask a gaijin who has lived in japan how different 3d life is to 2d life
Naruto was the hard worker for about 20 episodes of the anime.
By the end only the legendary families were in the race with their unique bloodlines.
All the hardworkers were basically dead or forgoten.
>t. buttblasted libertarian
>muh invisible hand will reward the worthy
But in Naruto the characters that grow the most are the ones that are both talented and train hard
Goku was shit tier even when factoring in him being an alien with super human strength. Even his own balding manlet brother Raditz shat on him for being a weakling until Goku proved him wrong.
End of story, you need both.
He shrugged off bullets from the getgo.
Goku being invincible meant that he had to do all the slapstick gags. Pretty sure they stung like hell.
It saddens me that this thread and it's related topic had so much potential for a good discussion. Negative faggots like some of you that posted ruined it.
>almost every shounen
Read more shounen that isn't Naruto or a clone of Naruto.
T. Newfag
how did it have so much potential? OP's point was retarded and he quickly stopped trying to support it.
Goku was talented as fuck.
He's basically the genius kid who was raised by academics, had access to an academic upbringing and resources and people in the fucking field. He had all the resources available on Earth to start his rise in the Martial Arts world as talented fighter and he had the will to go the distance.
Gohan was Goku but
>Not into fighting
>weaker upbringing
>Inabiltiy to really put in the hours early on fighting people 1v1 like Goku did.
...
>A country that have extremely low unemployment is usually very rewarding towards hard work.
Not really. Most places that deflate their unemployment rates down. For example employers refuse to fire people, part time shit jobs (hire two people and don't give benefits vs hiring just one full timer with it).
Being able to make people make you successful is a skill and talent you need to refine.
This is how delusional Narutards are
Ping pong had. The best take on this in anime because it all came down to enjoyment
Exactly. Even as a low class saiyan, he was sent to a world inhabited by such weak people that he was a god by comparison, able to conquer it single-handedly. That means that none of what happened in DB was thanks to his hard work. After the reveal, every hard working human in the planet turns into a joke.
And he being stronger than all those other saiyans is not due to hard work either, that's just him being the protagonist. It should be obvious that any saiyan kid who grew up sparring with other saiyans had better training than Goku goofing around on Earth. They are space Spartans, they don't exactly get to sit around all day.
SJ manga usually follow the formula of Effort/Friendship/something else I forgot (Victory? Justice?), that's one reason why I don't read them. Because I fear wasting my time reading something that looks really similar to another work which uses the same formula.
You're forgetting the part where Goku is trained by immortals and other wacky shit.
It is remarked when Radditz shows up and then later when Vegeta and Nappa show up that the earthlings have a technique that allows them to raise and lower their powerlevels. It isn't until the Namek saga that Vegeta remarks that he learned such a thing.
The implication here is that earthlings know the ability to "power up" and to "concentrate" their ki to increase the strength of attacks. Something we have to presume that maybe only Vegeta had an inkling of how to do with his Galic Gun attack...but before that it is a complete surprise that the power levels of earthlings, and now in this case Goku, could rise and that they could basically make their ki attacks hit harder than their own apparent powerlevel.
This would be presumably why the kamehameha is such a powerful attack as it seems to be the best at doing this power-level/ki concentration.
One presumes without the knowledge of this technique that a ki blast from any given person is just a longer-range version of how hard they might be able to punch. An extension of strength rather than enhancement.
Goku also gets a few legs up because he trained in the afterlife and gained the KaioKen technique. Something that basically takes the concepts previously explained and ramps it up to 11. You have to consider that the Kaioken IS A TECHNIQUE for enhancing ones self and thus needs to be trained and mastered.
Then there is the earthling's values aspect of it. Most of the time Goku has had to fight has been in the service to protecting his friends or even earth itself. While he may enjoy this thanks to his Saiyan nature there is a consideration to be made that his motives which might give him the extra drive to find new heights of power because if he doesn't overcome the obstacle not only will he be dead but everyone he cares about would be.
Maybe it's a nod to their lifestyle, even if an idealistic one (even for the adults who might be watching shonen anime with their kids).
Goku trained smart, Vegeta trained hard.
Is that Sawada?
Just to add to that last line.
This is where Goku and Vegeta tend to differ. At least for a long while. Heck, it might be where Goku and everyone else tends to differ. This difference is entirely because Goku is a fucking retard.
He's too dumb to actually consider retreat.
Our biggest evidence of this is Super Saiyan.
Goku gains super saiyan as he resolves to stick around and fight frieza. People attribute it to Krillin being killed and such but really that's just part of the trigger.
Super Saiyan comes from a deep need to overcome an obstacle.
Vegeta gains his Super Saiyan powers in much the same way...but his obstacle is not being killed on some stupid asteroid after he's exhausted himself training.
Why didn't Vegeta gain the powers during the Frieza fight? Because he knew he couldn't beat Frieza and because of that he always hit against the limits of his power as he knew them.
>Luck is the only thing that matters.
Spotted the spoiled libtard/envious little beta-bitch. Luck is for losers, a real man makes his own luck through hard work and, just as important, persistence.
Only fools think they have no control over their own destiny, and just lie around whining about the "privileged" and the "lucky".
Katagiri, from Rude 39. I wonder if he would've won against the bog, or what would he have done instead.
luck and intuition are unironically skills
Intuition is, luck isn't. Luck requires no hard work, whatsoever. That's why it's called "luck".
t. "i don't have luck" cuck
t. "I'm a leftist cuck who expects everything for free without any work whatsoever" sponge.
>People argue luck doesn't exist when Jaden Smith exists.
If his dad wasn't Will Smith nobody would know or care about him and everything he does.
Now we meme about him, his shitty movies and now his shitty 'anime'
I don't know if I would call that lucky. If anything, the son that Will Smith has that nobody knows or cares about is probably more lucky.
Not pushed into movies.
Not being pushed into the arms of hollywood pedophiles.
Ever hear 'No Such thing as bad publicity'? There are tons of games, animes, movies, etc that sell far more than they should only because of it.
Jaden may be a joke but he's making more than that no name son.
Luck is just the result of good intuition
I don't think our buddy Clyde who inherited 130 million from his dad's business did so because of his good intuition.
That's not luck either, he's fucked from birth.
>What good is it being friends with dr.dre if you can't rap for shit?
Just ask Eazy-E who couldn't rap for shit until Dre put him in a booth.
>fortune isn't fortunate because something something dysfunctional family something something spoiled brat something something universal rule because I say so
Yes, but unironically. Better than being a sandnigger but that's all it is.
Naruto uses the Kinnikuman story template, not Dragonball.
>main character is of royal lineage
>main character ends up with a special "burst of strength" power because of it
>main character has a clumsy and annoying personality, so the "real" fighters treat him as a joke
>main character starts beating serious characters through a mix of hidden power, will, and creativity
>the fucking Kiba vs. Naruto fight stealing beats directly from the Kinnikuman vs. Hawkman fight, right down to both opponents using the same spinning drill attack
>main character ends up gaining enough respect that he finally lives up to the prophesy
I like being a born a starving hobo with gangrene too.
>a real man makes his own luck through hard work and, just as important, persistence.
Only a fool believes in free will and thinks human action exists in a vacuum.
I have an MS and 10 publications, I was a Ph.D candidate. I have top scores and many honors and certificates. I have 10 years of experience now, all with a history of success. I studied Human Systems Engineering and focus on Usability. I have won awards for design layouts and conducted countless proper experiments to analyze interface elements. My protfolio includes designs for Garmin, government websites, and equipment interfaces for airplanes and USMC equipment. I stay up to date in my field, with my most recent formal education being in 2014 and I have had constant access to paywalls.
I am 32. I cannot find a job in under 4 months. I got immediately rejected for at least 300 positions in my last job search. Others I never heard back from. I got 2 offers, both underpaying me by tens of thousands when compared to BLS, GSA, GS, and Glassdoor.
The position I had to take only paid $70k. I have been denied for a Sr or Lead position, I have seen every black and Woman I work with promoted above me despite half my experience, no publications, and no doctoral level education.
I have been employed here for 3 yrs and treated like a second rate member of the company the entire time. I have never had over a 3% raise and only once per yr. I have been applying for new jobs for 3 months, instantly rejected for all of it.
I am only applying to usability or UI/UX jobs. I am capable with programming but a usability expert shouldn't be a developer. It's clear from job listings that boomers don't understand what usability is, it is a research position. I can figure out predictable human performance from various designs before we implement them. I was praised at my last company meeting, winning an internal award, for saving the company >$4M by improvements to the site and measurable increases in traffic and sales. My bonus was a $100 gift card. My boss drives a Porsche and has a 4 car garage house. I rent and still drive my first car.
They understand their audience is probably full of talentless losers who get a jolt of confidence and motivation everytime the protagonist in their favorite manga/anime talks about not having talent and being willing to work hard.
I should mention, they gave the $100 bonus to my black colleague as well, who did not do half of what I was doling. This individual is now a project manager.
Working hard doesn't get you shit. I should change my last name to be Jewish.
You should try working as hard as you larp. Why brag about being a "phd candidate"? lol. You not being able to shit out a dissertation means you're retarded, have no ability to produce an original work with proper academic standards, and lack discipline.
You sound like you barely have a few undergrad semesters under your belt. No wonder you can't get a job.
Naruto has all the right circumstances going for him. He's an orphan that has the manic disposition, energy, and drive to fulfill his purpose confidently in the face of doubt like someone on magic mushrooms. He gets to go to fucking ninja academy and go adventuring with a Jonin and then a womanizing Sennin that teaches him to summon giant toads and hadoukens before reaching puberty.
That's not the sort of life you have to reluctantly grind through and dinky gains or working bartender with a STEM degree like in the real world. You're already independent at birth, get to learn ninja magic, and then given mentors. Hard work actually means something in the anime world and is enticing.
It really depends how you measure success.
"World fame" does not have much of anything to do with talent or hard work. Anime are generally combat oriented or oriented toward a battle of wills (such as in sport), these pursuits lend themselves to the talent versus hard work question. In a fight for example, anyone has a punchers chance but talent and hard work are more prominent. These tend to be the focus of anime, (1) because they're very engaging and (2) because it is obvious how one wins at them. It's no so obvious to tell if one is 'winning' at art unless the mangaka sets up very specific conditions like getting published in a particular magazine or something.
Looks like he's done way more than you have, shitposter. You're just butthurt because someone effectively threatened your dogmatic belief in hard work.
Justin Trudeau
You should've worked hard at having social skills and being likeable. It is better to know 100 people than to have 100 marks.
Society fucked you over because they told you having marks is the key to success, sorry.
if you're white male just fk off and cry somewhere else
nobody cares
>Goku trained smart, Vegeta trained hard.
Goku fought challenges and lost in several cases.
Vegeta fight in ROFLstomps and took a long time to learn how to take losses well.
What good is hard work when you can't get your foot in the door because you're not friends with or related to a big name in the industry? And hard work is relative. Spending alot of time on something you consider a passion that you cannot live without is pretty easy. Losing sleep to grind through school memorizing something you will forget and never use is not only hard but not rewarding.
Talent is a meme used by the weak to attack those who simply focus more when picking up the basics/intermediate things in whatever the subject may be.
You cannot explain what talent is because I can simply break down the mechanics/fundamental applications one applied to get better at what the subject is. Its just a buzzword so that people incapable of hard work or focus can feel better about themselves.
Luck requires work and quick thinking to make results off of or else you'll have opportunities to.
>random black women are more likeable than the co worker who was praised for saving the company over 4 million dollars
This. The dude with a 50% win loss ratio fighting relevant people will always be better then the dude with the 99% win loss ratio picking fights with children.
Too be fair though DBZ was pretty fucking stupid and the whole series is so power level reliant sadly Vegeta cannot get a fucking win through even fighting logic alone if they're that much stronger.
His closest was beating 2nd form Cell which he could've done easily.
Ever heard of a genius or a prodigy?
There are a number of endeavours individuals are suited for and will work hard to master. That doesn't mean they will have financial security from it, especially when there are troubles in the labour market. Hard work is a factor, but it's not all cut and dry.
Well, talent in most shounen IS luck. And connections are mostly "hard"work. I don't know how your field works, but my uni education and early internships are from where most of my connections come from, aside from connections that came from weekend projects and hobbies.
You're doing something very wrong if you're this good and no one is noticing. Unless you're doing a simple job where it doesn't actually matter if you're good or not, someone will notice.
They very well could be, being good at your job has no correlation with being approachable.
Goku also learned the Genki-Dama and Kaioken from the North Kai in only a few months and became god by holding hands in a friendship circle. Frieza surpasses SSB in four month of training. Gohan gets mystic potential unlocked by having an old man dance around him.
Hard work is what animators and salarymen do for mediocore pay until their boss leaves the office.
You have no idea if he's approachable or not. You make pure assumption but give niggers the benefit of the doubt. Nice.
It's great that you're addled by survivorship bias but modern society isn't a meritocracy.
nice teen thread
stop watching shounen dumb redditfag :)
I graduated in 2014 with an undergrad degree in History (Bsc w/ Hons). I've worked in what's practically a cubicle for 3 years straight making £21k. I don't know all the details yet (a good indication of my competence), but long story short I'm moving up a decade earlier than expected: I'm getting my own desk in HR. What's confusing is that there's a massive pool of more qualified and experienced candidates all over the building.
My mates are thinking that I'm getting promoted because the company wants to score diversity points (I'm a diagnosed autist, and a foreign-born immigrant who speaks 5 languages), and that I was autistic enough to start conversations with people higher up than me. It makes sense since I'm the only non-white foreigner in my department, and I socialise more with the higher ups (who seem more chill and mature) than the normalfag assholes I actually work with. Meanwhile my manager says that my promotion is because I mentioned that I've read On War, The Art of War, Freakonomics, Dictators Handbook, and The Prince on my CV, and did a 'outstanding' job in my interview years ago thus making me seem like the 'best-suited guy by far'.
From the evidence it looks like a mix of luck, networking, and politics was at work. Hard work can't have been in it because I shitpost with my phone for most of the day when not actively seeking out something to do. Talent shouldn't be involved since none of my 'talents' having anything to do with my job. I feel bad; my other co-workers are giving glares and avoiding me more than usual.
Escapism.
>Naruto
>about hard work vs talent
>hard workers were jobbers at best
>natural talent were the only ones who did shit
>even naruto turned out to be one of the talented ones in the end
Naruto vs Neji was about fate and shit. He was wrong at the moment but was proven right in the end. Even his death proved it right, though it was probably more about the pessimistic attitude he used to have more than anything.