We can agree it's actually better than dbz right?

We can agree it's actually better than dbz right?

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>db went from fart jokes to multiversal genocide
what the fuck happened?

editors

you mean
>from gag manga to action and comedy manga to alien manga to sci-fi manga and back to action comedy manga

Yes. DB is actually a masterwork of fun, adventure and storytelling. Not to mention the at times superb animation and art. Then we get powerlevels shit.

there's no room for debate. It is a fact.

No, not enough powerlevels

Am I in the wrong for liking pale skinned Goku with red colored gi from the DB anime over the canonical shitskin Goku with orange gi from the manga?

Fuck no, the writing is as terrible as DBZ.

I wouldn't care about power levels if they were at least consistent with them.
Why the hell can people without god ki stand up to ssg or ssb?

Was Toriyama even consistent with Goku's skin tone?

That said, I prefer the orange.

Yes.

Yep. Wonder what the consensus among DBS fans is though. They seem to be okay with transformation bullshit and mostly see them talk about Z more.

It's one series. "DBZ" doesn't exist.

From what I've seen, Z fans are the hardest on Super. DB fans seem to cut it more slack.

It became kind of clear that Toriyama was running out of ideas to make the cast more and more powerful as the saiyan and then namek sagas went on. Conveying the power jumps with new transformations was something that he came up with at the end of Namek and more decisively in Cell with all the super saiyan grades.
Compared to the namek saga with concepts such ss namek fusion or zenkais or potential unlocks to someone like Krillin, it is not that bad of a concept. It did come up with the issues of sidelining everybody that wasn't fortunate enough to be born a saiyan, hell Toriyama even tried to make super namek a thing for a while before dropping it and letting Piccolo end up in the dust as the saiyans all overshot him in the power scale.
The actual problem is the fact that by not ending, DB keeps introducing more and more threats that are bigger than anything the cast has ever faced befor, and in the end Goku and co. too need to improve themselves in some way so that the villain of the arc can even be defeated somehow. It is a Sisyphean task.

Who the fuck disagrees with that statement?

i never considered DB and DBZ to be in the same type of genre
i still like them both except everything after cell of course
i only watch super with a glass of whiskey with how retarded the power scaling has gotten and the insane asspulls
and the animation

it would have been nice if goku wasnt the only one all save all guy
there used to be a full cast of fighters that were relevant to the story
now its just everyone gats either beaten or just gives up for goku to either train or heal up to save the day
vegeta is the second most relevant and hes only used to show how strong the enemy is by jobbing almost every fight hes in
not even naruto or one piece, the others of its kind, pull this shit

Why do people who haven't read the manga say this all the time?

I read the manga and thought it was better, although everything after goku defeated that one evil organization might as well have been Z

I like it for what it is except the art style. Late DBZ or current DBS is much much better.

Yes

Yes.

>gohan=z
>tien=z
>piccolo=z
no.

If he wanted to he could have bothered giving Goku the skin tone he was supposed to have at any time. Guess he was too lazy to do that.

Up until the moment kuririn dies, sure. After it it becomes way closer to DBZ than most people care to admit.

It has nothing to do about kuririn himself, it's just that the tenshinhan tourney end marks piccolo's arc beginning and thats when it went full Z and stopped being about MAKAFUSHIGI ADVENTURE.

The anime was pretty comfy to watch and had the right amount of action with comedy. Original Dragonball had a better cast, music selection, and fights than Z.

It turned to shit after Goku vs Tien

>piccolo=z
See here

Piccolo's arc is no longer about the adventure Dragonball thrived on. Gohan and Tenshinhan are still DB though, I agree with you on that.

Z's problem was that the quality of the fights decreased after Frieza Saga and it became more apparent that power levels decided the fights. Cell is the exception because he was legit scary and unique until absorbing 17. Only the Trunks Special had good fights.

>and it became more apparent that power levels decided the fights
Right, such as tenshinshan getting absolutely destroyed by Piccolo and then Goku showing up and winning because he drank magic water that upped his - wait for it - power level.

It was just water.

I say King Piccolo isn't Z because not a single villain had that same sort of nature to them and because Goku actually lost to Piccolo.
Freeza was similar at first, but Super Saiyan was way too one sided.
There's also the fact that Goku ended up in a foreign looking place, meeting Yajirobe, and got powered up in an interesting way that makes sense.

No nigga the first one was just water coupled with Karin's training. The second one was the real deal. The ice cave one.

why do tien and jerrycurl ali only have two abs?

that was just human-killing poison that goku survived by being an alien, and got a zenkai from it

Goku vs Perfect Cell was a good fight in and of itself.

No that was really magic water. Google it if you want.

to start off, Z wasn't really that bad before super sayajins were introduced. before that point, the fights were still pretty fun until Goku showed up. since most of the characters were weaker than the enemy they were fighting they had to think creatively to beat them, or sometimes they wouldn't even fight at all. the real problem with Z that got exacerbated over time was goku getting more and more powerful despite not really learning anything new or thinking of creative ways to fight new enemies.

>Goku actually lost to Piccolo.
Did you stop watching it midway through and missed the part where he supermans through Piccolo?

Besides, the only reason Goku even got that fucked up was because Piccolo got Tenshinhan as a hostage. The only reason Tenshinhan was even so fucked up to the point he could be taken as a hostage was because of power levels. He didn't even use his 4 arm thing for instance. He went in full 100% mafuba mode because the power levels were just so fucking far apart.

Also, how was it interesting and made sense for him to power up by drinking magic water? That's as lame as it gets.

>According to Darkness the liquid is sacred and not meant for humans. Later he states thirteen people had drank the water and none survived, making Goku the fourteenth and the only known survivor up to that point. Since Goku is the only stated survivor and a Saiyan, it is unknown if any human could actually survive its trial.

You're being retarded user.
youtube.com/watch?v=z53k5lIzZAA

He means the first time, Papa Piccolo kicked Goku's ass and he almost died.

Piccolo still lost in the end. Even though he got younger too.

But yeah, Piccolo won one battle which wasn't even the one that settled things.

at 22 seconds, did Papiccolo just try to grab goku by the balls?

Good job conveniently missing the part where it says it does bring out ones potential.

>he Ultra Divine Water[3] (超神水, Chōshinsui, lit. "Super God/Divine Water") is a magic water that will draw out all of the drinker's potential if they can survive its poisonous and painful effects. Thus, if a drinker has already obtained their full potential it will have no effect.
It was magic water. Deal with it. Simply because it's unclear if normal people can handle it, it doesn't change the fact it was magic water.

So what?
It was a great fight and established just how big a threat Piccolo was.
The ice cave was an interesting place to see, especially later on with that 'darkness' thing.
What makes the ultra divine water good is the theming of Goku's latent power with the Great Ape.

> why didn't my successful manga stagnate and stay the same

One Piece is still about adventure and it hasn't stagnated, unlike the DBZ part of the manga.
Toriyama gave up on different arc structures after the Saiyan saga. At least the Cell saga had a bunch of weird twists because one editor kept telling him the villains were shit until he finally made Perfect Cell.

>before that point, the fights were still pretty fun
It's not about weather it was fun or not. I really like Piccolo's arc and in my opinion it's fun with a few down points.

It's about stopping the makafushigi adventure and then focusing on one villain who can destroy the world. Bonus points for Tenshinhan jobbing while Goku arrives late after getting a power level boost. Have you seen that happen anywhere else? Oh yeah, Saiyan arc. Oh yeah, against the Ginyu tokusentai. And against Frieza too. And on and on.

It's the same story where stuff like pic related happens regularly, so you tell me user.

Pretty much
The Piccolo Arc even established the precedent of Goku being far and away the best fighter in the cast who's stronger than the strongest people to ever live, and will always save the day because he's just stronger than the rest of the cast through some plot contrivance, whether it's a new transformation or drinking the sacred water

why didn't oolong pick the futa

Because Oolong was a pervert, not a degenerate.

The real problem is that they repeated this formula instead of bringing others up to his level.

>It's about stopping the makafushigi adventure and then focusing on one villain who can destroy the world
but Z had that though. throughout the first half of the namek saga the only one who really ever got into serious fights was Vegeta, and even then he only fought like 3 times. it was obvious that no one stood a chance of beating freesa, not even goku or vegeta, so that wasn't the objective, the objective was to find the dragon balls and get home without dying and freesa was more of an obstacle to be avoided then an enemy to be fought. the point where it really changed gears from being more adventure focused to being "lets raise power levels to kill the badguy" was around the time the ginyu force showed up, which is also around the time goku showed up.

I'll never get why people still argue about powerlevels. Powerlevels were a thing during ONE arc (or two if you count saiyans and namek as two) and the whole point was making it clear that there is no such thing as quantifiable powerlevels and that frieza's army was dumb for relying on such a thing. Then the series immediately introduces enemies with unlimited energy and no ki, and then some sort of eldritch horror that nobody can beat ever no matter what.

Objective fact

Goku raiding the Red Ribbon base was one of the best parts of Dragon Ball. But I can't remember when Gero appeared and got butthurt enough to make Cell.

>But I can't remember when Gero appeared and got butthurt enough to make Cell.
Because he doesn't. The only one who shows up is the guy who made #8 which is someone who apparently used to work with Gero.

Pretty sure Dr.Gero was just made up later.

max power output=/=power level
Regardless, the problem is that they're breaking their own rules without a proper explanation or decent writing.

Survivorship bias

Even if you considered Namek to be adventurous like classic Dragonball(which I don't), it still does not change the fact Piccolo was when things shifted.

What I said there still stands. It was on the piccolo arc that things started being about a Villain who can destroy everyone and everything. It was on the Piccolo arc that the Goku arriving late after being power level boosted became a thing. Like someone else said, it was on the Piccolo arc that Goku became the strongest character in the cast by far.

You can deny it if you want, but all that won't stop being true. The Piccolo arc was when DB shifted and Z started being formed.

Dr. Frappe was filler, but Gero wasn't made until way later.
The only legitimate explanation is that Goku killed Gero's son who was a part of the army and 16 is based off him.

>We can agree it's actually better than dbz right?
>OP posts a manga image where there's no such thing as DBZ It's all just one continuous manga.

He still woudn't be wrong
The manga is better than Dragonball Z, the shitpaced anime

The series has gone on to lengths to explain to you that yamcha could probably fuck jiren up if the latter was distracted. Well that might be an exaggeration but in the end the result of a fight is all down to a series of factors that can't be measured. Which rules are they breaking? I don't think they ever said god ki makes you invincible.

I actually enjoyed Dragon Ball. I could never get into DBZ.

God ki has been treated (at least in the movies and anime) as a wall that can't be surpassed in any other way.
For example, a lot of people failed horribly to defeat Beerus. Only Goku with that same power stood any chance and he still lost.
Having an experience like that put him at a pinnacle that not even someone like Gohan could reach.
Over time, blue has been treated more like another Super Saiyan form than the next level it was meant to be.
It's come to a head with a literally who fusion being able to contend with it, even though Vegito probably stood no chance against Beerus.

yes for the longest time in super they made it seem like there are way more factors that come into play than just raw power levels.

In rF, freeza was clearly stronger than goku and vegeta but they were able to take advantage of the fact that freeza was not used to his form and his golden form shortly got outclassed by the ss blues

Its funny when people try to understand and discuss full powered super saiyan in the cell arc when their mindset is based on pure power level numbers.

>God ki has been treated (at least in the movies and anime) as a wall that can't be surpassed in any other way.
That's bullshit user, Goku could stand up to bills because god mode also made him a whole lot stronger, not just because of god ki, not to mention bills was also being nice. Bills can make people fucking disappear. There's no way a transformation that is exclusive to saiyajin is the only thing that can stand up to a hakaishin. Also goku has barely used blue and when he does it's because shit just got real, otherwise he goes regular SS.

Well isn't god ki just a technique of not leaking ki? That's how it seemed vegeta and goku obtained it through training. The holding hand ceremony seemed to just give goku that ability without having to train for it the same way gohan got mystic.

I don't think not having your ki leak just makes you automatically stronger, its just a huge advantage and if you are a skilled fighter you could learn how to use abuse its benefits.

It seems that as the show progresses more and more forms of power factor in to what makes a fighter strong. It used to just be power levels; then in the cell saga speed became very important; then in super it was ki leak and stopping it from leaking; now its ultra instinct and fighting without out thinking.

This doesn't even factor in all the other gimmicks other fighters have like time skip, etc.

Do you not remember when Goku literally absorbed the god ki into his base making his Super Saiyan just as strong?
>There's no way a transformation that is exclusive to saiyajin is the only thing that can stand up to a hakaishin
You missed my point entirely. It's fine to have others able to stand up to a GoD as long as they have experience with god ki.
Freeza is Freeza and has met Beerus several times for reference, Trunks trained with ssb Vegeta, and Rose was the mind of a 'kaioshin'.
Training on a remote island for a decade shouldn't allow 17 to compete with blue.
The same goes for the u6 Saiyans.
>Also goku has barely used blue and when he does it's because shit just got real, otherwise he goes regular SS.
The leaks for the next few episodes say Kefla gives ssb a hard time, so Goku goes UI and she can somehow still fight that.
I see your logic, but how could someone without any sort of gimick that boosts them to that level stand evenly with the rest?

>It's fine to have others able to stand up to a GoD as long as they have experience with god ki.
I'm sorry user but you made this up (probably unconsciously, I'm not calling you a liar or anything), god ki was never the only way, nor some kind of barrier.
Also about that last example, fusion has absoltuely always kicked ass whenever it's used.

well in my view, raw power level is a gimmick, a very vanilla gimmick in a sense.

Up until cell, the saiyans have been getting along fine using raw power as their gimmick to defeating enemies. Then future trunks discovers the most powerful power up in raw power to date and it becomes ineffective due to its counter gimmick of being slow.

Also in the cell saga, Cell could have been destroyed a couple of times to fighters with less raw power than him, but was able to survive thanks to his gimmick of regeneration.

reminder that DBS anime isn't canon.

nice head canon

>>It's fine to have others able to stand up to a GoD as long as they have experience with god ki.
I meant this more from a narrative stand point.
The reason I say it's a barrier of sorts is because of how Goku and Vegeta got to blue.
It would've been impossible for them to get to that level by training the same way they had been, so they peaked in a way. The way Whis was saying it, (and to an extent what happened until this arc started) they could only get stronger with that sort of ki control training.
Then Gohan, 17, and even Krillin could somehow fight it and all people could say was "he's suppressed". How could these guys do that without going through something to push them to that next level?
It especially bothers me that 2 literally who Saiyans with absolutely no experience can fuse and be on par with ssb when vegito probably would've done as well against beerus as ss3. It's totally contradictory and there's no excuse for it.

well goku isn't so much as suppressed as he has better ki control and could fight gohan, 17 and krillen at a level they can keep up with.

The whole idea of god ki is ki control and it really reminds me of when gohan and goku were super saiyan and when they went home they were trying to just hold a glass cup without breaking it.

The girls have potential, they both went through zenkai at least once, and one of them is literally broly but a girl, AND they're fused. All of these have been established as kick-ass factors long ago. Also they've been fighting god goku so there's your "experience with god ki". Oh and before you say it's only been about 30 mins since the tournament started, the series has also established that even 5 minutes is a huge fucking long time wherein anything could happen. If Kefla didn't kick any major ass before going down, now that'd be contradictory.

So do you think berserk kefla is stronger than goku blue?

Most likely. On the other hand, Gohan Blanco might give her a hard time.

That makes perfect sense, but it's total headcanon.
It wouldn't be hard to say something like that in the show as a proper explanation, but we're left to piece things together that may not necessarily be there in an attempt to explain these things.
>zenkai
That idea has been all but abandoned, since namek (the single exception being black).
>one of them is literally broly but a girl
Oh yeah, it's that guy that ss goku punched a hole through before the buu arc that isn't even canon.
> AND they're fused.
So? Goku could've defeated Cauli at any time. blue is leagues above what he showed her individually.
>Also they've been fighting god goku so there's your "experience with god ki"
No part of that has made sense and Goku was fighting the two of them at once while weakened.
What I meant by experience with god ki was a reference you can use to train yourself in the future like with GF and Trunks.

Why do you even care? Cauli and Kale are the lowest point of Super and have taken over the last couple episodes with their insistent whining.
> now that'd be contradictory.
Leave contrarian shitposter.

>user disagrees with me, must be a shitposter!
I thought I was talking to an adult, I feel like I wasted my time.

@164484636
>resorts to petty insults without the slightest counter argument
Seriously, people like you make this board a shittier place. Fuck off for once.

>DB's Bulma

I want to lick bulma too

Bulma has always been an insufferable bitch but at least on DB she was a turbo slut to compensate.

She never stopped being vulgar but DB bulma was on a level of her own.

The only period of time in Dragon Ball history someone other than Goku was relevant for ending fights was from the beginning of Z until they started fighting Frieza, and when Gohan defeated Cell. A scant few exceptions in the series' history. Everyone else either was too weak to fight and actively avoided conflict or they let the enemy escape and power up beyond their capabilities.

Who's the best Red Ribbon character? No nameless soldiers please.

I want to bully this turboslut's butt!

Do people actually like dragon ball besides the first 12 episodes?

I've seen better baits on Sup Forums.

>One Piece hasn't stagnated
You have to be fucking joking. Every arc is the same shit. There's a princess we have to save, there's a big bad and ther subordinates. Luffy manages to beat somebody stronger than him through asspulss and the power of friendship.
FUCK OFF.

You forgot about some sort of childhood flashback.

On average, DB is easily better, but DBZ has better peaks.

>eating mochi is considered an asspull
the absolute state of OP haters.
Anyway, Luffy using gag techniques (especially eating) to defeat villains has been part of OP since I can remember.
I agree that the series is getting a bit too "powerlevel-ish" for my taste, but then again I started reading it with 15 and am now 27 so if anything it's a surprise how well it has aged despite me getting older and changing.
Also Oda's ideas for devil fruits are getting repetitive in some cases, but again the series is fucking massive so this is expected.

>i-its always the same!
don't fix what isn't broken. In DBZ the problem was that the narrative and arc structure led to the necessity of even more outrageous powerscaling, to the point it destroyed consistency or we would see Goku n' company destroying planets by just sneezing carelessly.

The original run of the Dragon Ball manga is perfectly alright and miles ahead of the repetitive snoozefest that is OP. I have been reading OP religiously for years and I still enjoy it, but I hate selfrighteous faggots like you who can't see its obvious flaws.
>Luffy vs Doffy
>Luffy needs a minute of rest before he can go gear 4th again
>I could totally kill him now, but nah, I better torture some randoms I found on the street until he recovers
Come the fuck on.

>we
fuck off reddit