So which of these two was right? Was Shirou correct in rejecting Archer's message despite agreeing with his conclusions...

So which of these two was right? Was Shirou correct in rejecting Archer's message despite agreeing with his conclusions? Which one makes a better husbando ?

They were both correct that's the point of UBW.

How is Shirou correct when he himself admits that continuing to pursue his ideal would turn him into Archer and that everything Archer said about his ideal being bullshit was correct, but then says he'll do it anyway?

Just because you're right doesn't mean you're correct

I just want Archer to fuck me hard.

Shirou can piss off.

>implying that a man as broken as Archer is capable of being dominant

Shirou is a better husband because he isn't jaded and angry at the world yet, but Archer is cooler

>Just because you're right doesn't mean you're correct
What did he mean by this?

They were both wrong.

There is nothing wrong with Shirou's ideal. His desire is noble and pure. Archer just experienced midlife crisis

Shirou's ideal is retarded because it's literally impossible to save everyone. If for the only reason that you will have to destroy evildoers to save their victims. He's only setting himself up for despair in attempting something so dumb.

>He's only setting himself up for despair in attempting something so dumb.
And he will save tons of people.

He is just not trying hard enough.

I love both because I love Shirou. Shirou is Shirou, so there's no reason to pick.

Fuck off Ilya, you wanted him to die for the entire time

>Archer just experienced midlife crisis
No, he saw it through the end, that's the point.
HF made Archer super happy for a reason, it's a non-retarded option for once.

Shirou wants to save everyone. Archer wants him to give up and save no one. There's a middle ground here.

Archer merely realized that there's no point in trying to save the world because you'll never make a difference and only make yourself miserable

Archer was objectively right. But Shirou was not wrong by keep pursuing the ideal itself. Shirou knew that it was imposible.

Because the ideal itself isn't wrong, not to mention it's still beautiful.

t. Shirou.
Nice trips though.

Not sure I understand.
Yes I'm a newfag.

We all ought to strive for perfection even if we can't reach it.

I mean, Shirou's "thing" after UBW isn't to save everyone, but to try his best to save everyone.

Shirou won't become Archer. He won't make a pact with the world.

One of the major points of Fate is that it's fine to dedicate yourself to an ideal while you're alive. But you don't owe the world anything more than that. Whatever obligations you feel you might have, it only extends to the end of your life.

Reminder Rin has no problem fucking Archer while still leading on Shirou.

I don't think it's an obligation for Shirou though. If anything, it's a privilege.

Archer forgot the thing he admired about his ideal was trying even if it was useless

>Rin
>attracted to Archer

All that does is just make Archer's lust for her more pent up as she teases his former self. It's a good plan, honestly.

So if a girl fucks your past self, and then fucks you, is this NTR, or just a good memory?

I'd imagine Archer would be like "aw yeah I remember what it's like to fuck teenage pussy, good times" and Shirou would be mad af

Archer was right, and HF is the story of Shirou finally understanding that and surpassing him by dropping his ideals before it was too late, hence the "You keep up with me!" scene.

It became an obligation for Archer though once he made the pact

>Shirou's ideal is retarded because it's literally impossible to save everyone.
and yet one should still strive to save everyone regardless

>It's a good plan, honestly.
How is that a good plan? All it does is make it inevitable that Archer would snap eventually and fuck her. Plans that end with your own servant bending you over and fucking you without asking first are not good plans.

>Plans that end with your own servant bending you over and fucking you without asking first are not good plans.
How so?

Saving others starts by saving yourself

Because it wouldn't be consensual

But there's no point in trying to save everyone if it's useless. Your only choice is saving 0 people (nobody not even yourself) or 1 person (yourself). Don't pick 0.

>implying

What if you get Justice-orgasms everytime you save someone? That must account for something no?

Does Archer look like he has justice orgasms every time he saves someone? His ideal of "if you don't save LITERALLY everyone you failed" makes it impossible to savor the victory

The real question is whether "striving to save everyone" will impact the amount of people you actually save compared to someone who doesn't act like a complete brainlet.

Fucking duh you should want to save everyone, the problem with Shitrou is that he's a retard who only acts in a way that benefits his own autism, not what actually saves people. Logically the stupidity of his actions will result in far less people save than someone who is efficient. This is why Kerrytugu "Slaughter Your Own Daughter" Emiya is superior, because he does what needs to be done to save people even when it makes him feel bad. Unlike Shitrou. And the only "flaw" in Shitrou that is ever explored is the fact that he's a masochist little faggot, not all the other people he fails to save because of his autism. This is because he's a mary sue plot armor wielding self-insert who isn't actually meant to be wrong.

That's the whole point of "The act itself is beautiful" yeah?

That is, in fact, the plan.

>implying that Rin fantasize about being raped by Archer

Who doesn't?

>he doesn't want Archer to rape him
how does it feel having shit taste

Feels good having enough self respect to not wanting to be raped by Archer

Doesn't matter. Nasu says that none of the Shirous from the main endings become Archer.

The act of What? Failing?

You see a sick person on the road, you can help but it most likely will risk you getting sick as well. Not helping the person cause it might hurt you is the correct thing to do, but not the right thing to do.

> 2000 + 17
> People STILL don't get it

Shirou was traumatized ever since Fate/Zero. His obsession with heroism is just a mask for his survivor guilt and self-loathing, he gets into deadly situations where his chances of coming out alive are very slim because he feels like he doesn't deserve to live after so many people around him died for no reason. At the beginning of each route he's a fucking doormat. He has no life of his own and everything, and I mean EVERYTHING he does is for other people, not himself. He's empty, and somehow he convinced himself (with the help of Greatest Dad Kiritsugu) that this is how things are supposed to be. UBW is about pointing out of fucked up that is.

Archer is Shirou's ideals taken to the fucking extreme. He realized too late he sacrificed his only chance for happiness as a human by becoming The World's Eternal Janitor and is angry at Shirou because he now realizes how fucked up he was. UBW is about Archer throwing a fit because he realizes now how utterly stupid he was by discarding his own humanity and choosing to become a mindless "heroic" machine that can only serve other people. Shirou never thinks of himself, of his own happiness, and Rin sort of succeeds into helping him realize that you can be a hero without being a mindless doormat, and that it's completely okay to think of yourself as well too. Which is why she's best girl.

TL;DR: Being heroic doesn't mean throwing away your humanity. You're a person entitled to your own dreams and happiness as well. Archer was mad that he didn't realized this sooner, and takes it out on his younger self. Rin kinda fixes it in the end, though.

He wasn't unhappy with his life. He just hates his afterlife. If he hadn't made that pact, he would have died content.

>If he hadn't made that pact, he would have died content.
He made that pact because of his insane mindset, user. He did it because he expected he could keep his heroism going on forever, on a whole new level.

How do we free Archer and thus restore his smile and optimism?

But she is.

The whole point was that the ideal is worth pursuing even if achieving it is impossible.

Both. Archer's right in that those ideals are self destructive, flawed, and can lead to a life of misery.

Shirou's right in that while his ideals are flawed, they're still beautiful and worth pursuing.

Both Shirou and Archer have this epiphany in UBW and Shirou goes on to become a hero while not falling down a self destructive path since Rin is there to support him.

Nasu stated in an interview that at the end of all three routes, the odds of Shirou becoming EMIYA are close to zero.

In Fate, Shirou persists on becoming a hero but realizes that what he wants more than anything is to see Saber again, and he reunites with her in Avalon.

In Heaven's Feel, he changes his ideal from being a hero of justice for the world to primarily being Sakura's hero, and the two live together happily.

>fanfiction

Nope. Read the prologue.

Prologue doesn't say shit, fampai

>Rin
>best girl
>after how she treated Sakura in HF
I think not

> being this dense

What a shitty analogy.

Is it justice to treat a girl roughly in bed, even if she's much much smaller than you? Asking for a friend

According to Nasu: yes.

>Archer being capable of doing something like that
His drive to be a hero would compel him to sudoku if he ever legitimately hurt Rin during sex

Shirou could pull it off, so could Archer.

Archer is so lonely and self-hating that he would want to be pampered, not dominant

If you insist. There's the other option, too.

>I have two personalities: Your best friend
>and your worst nightmare

Archer is a butthurt fag even if i like him. I'm extremely gay for UBW!Shirou. Even if its dripping with hypocrisy, even if its a lie, even if it destroys him he accepted that being the ideal hero is the only path for him. I just can't hate it. Try as i might i can't. The sheer stupidity of following your dream even if you can see the doom in front of you just resonates with something deep in my soul.

Sakura is an objectively better partner for Shirou than Rin. Saving him from the path of mindlessly self-destructive heroism > enabling him to keep doing it to his doom

When Archer is about to be stabbed by Shirou in the anime his last thoughts are "How cruel. It's like looking at an old mirror. There really was a man like this once wasn't there?". Is this in the novel? It's a pretty cool line but i can't remember if it's in the novel for the life of me.

>Selfishly stopping Shirou from walking the only true path in his life
>Denying the world of a Hero because you want to live a boring life with him
Sakura is water that smothers the flame in Shirou's heart. Sure, it might kill him but he would die with no regrets.

I want Sakurafags out.

>but he would die with no regrets.
Only because he would die so hollow of a person that having regrets would be impossible. A machine has no regrets when you throw it in the dumpster. That's all Justice Hero Shirou is: a machine, without any thoughts or dreams or emotions of his own, only able to follow Kiritsugu's programming until his decommissioning. Sakura turned him into an actual person with thoughts and feelings as an individual.

>Sakura turned him into an actual person with thoughts and feelings as an individual.
No, she turned him into a mindless white knight.

Also, Shirou stopping being a machine is what UBW is all about.

But even if that life is like a machine's, it's still beautiful. He chose to walk that path, and that is what makes UBW Shirou so inspiring. The willingness to sacrifice himself for others, the ability to follow the path he believes is right even if it will only bring him pain. UBW Shirou is not unlike a messiah who will die for mankind's sins.

> Rin gets to fuck that every night
Lucky bastard.

>not wanting to throw your life away and abandon your loved ones to die in the desert = being a white knight
No. That equals valuing your own worth as an individual. Shirou's whole mentality was profoundly unhealthy. Doing anything short of helping him overcome his survivor's guilt and lack of self-worth is betraying your responsibilities as his loved ones.

>Selfishly stopping Shirou from walking the only true path in his life.
This is objectively false, Sakura wanted Shirou to keep being a seigi no mikata.

Well alright it might not be selfish but she inadvertently did it anyway

>Doing anything short of helping him overcome his survivor's guilt and lack of self-worth is betraying your responsibilities as his loved ones.
All that happens in UBW, though. And Rin manages to help Shirou to value himself without making him give up in his dreams. And it's also thanks to her that he learns magic properly (at the clock tower, no less) so he can pursue his dream in the right way. With her help.

Much better than giving up everything because your girlfriend is some clingy, insecure bitch.

>And it's also thanks to her that he learns magic properly (at the clock tower, no less) so he can pursue his dream in the right way. With her help.
Shirou ends UBW by rejecting the magus association's offer, which is telling Rin that he chooses justice over her. Shirou's days in the clock tower are limited and he's got to pack up and ditch Rin or be killed by magi. Rin does nothing but say "K enjoy being murdered by mujahadeen while I'm studying magic in London"

>Rin happened to be virgin but impure inside
>Sakura pure inside but non virgin
It's a tragedy

I'm just saying its Shirou who chose to drop his ideals, Sakura never forced him to by her own choice.

In fact, my only problem with Shirou's choice in UBW is that his way of life isn't really opposed in a meaningful way, nor is he given a choice on another way of life. He simply keeps doing what he had been doing because its the only thing he knows, and the only thing/emotion he has.

Is that Shirou or Archer?

It IS opposed, by Archer himself who warns him that following this way of life will only kill him. But he does it anyway, and even defeats archer in a battle thas is as ideological as it is physical, which is what makes UBW so cool. He fights himself, both metaforically and literally and decides to keep going on the path of heroism he believes in, which is what makes UBW so fucking cool.

"I have no regrets
This is the only path
My whole life has been
Unlimited Blade Works"

What? No. He never met the qualifications to be a student in the clock tower, but he's Rin's apprentice (or familiar, can't remember which). They can't kick him out if he's associated with her. And Rin vowed to teach him about magic as much as she can, Rin ditching him out before he can know how to control magic properly would defeat the whole point of UBW.

Both.

UBW isn't cool, it's very sad. Shirou is given objective evidence that all of his dreams are just a projection of his inability to deal with his survivor's guilt, will only result in him getting himself killed, will never succeed, will never bring him happiness. But Shirou has so little self worth as an individual that he says "yeah but fuck it, I'm going to kill myself anyways" and commits to it. It's like watching a bunch of people try and tell a man "no dont kill yourself, it won't fix your problems," and having the man say "yeah you're right" but then pull the trigger anyway.

Look, I think Shirou did the good thing by following his ideals in UBW. The thing is that Shirou doesn't really give much of a shit about his life, so telling him his life is doomed if he keeps up this path is pretty much a non-factor to Shirou.

I prefer HF but the way Shirou keeps following his ideals in UBW leaves is pretty amazing.

The Ufotable anime has an anime original epilogue that explains how Rin decides to abandon the Clock Tower when Shirou tells her he won't stury there, so they both become unaffiliated Magus. Whether if you consider that canon or not is up to you though.

> purityfags

I don't know what that has to do with my comment (first one).

>an anime original epilogue
You said it yourself.

What you're missing is that he's not literally killing himself, he's following a destructive lifestyle in order to save people. Fate's universe operates under the principle that you can only save two of the following 3 things : Yourself, the people around you and your ideals. UBW Shirou chooses to save the people around him and his ideals at the cost of his own life. He gives away his life to save people because he believes that is the right path for him. It's sad in the same way that Jesus dying in the cross to save humanity from its sins was sad, and people have been praying to jesus for 2000 years now.