Between Shirou and Kiritsugu, who do you think was the more sympathetic and tragic character...

Between Shirou and Kiritsugu, who do you think was the more sympathetic and tragic character? I vote Kiritsugu because I think he's a better person overall.

>Kiritsugu
>bad person
>the cause of his own suffering
>fucked his own life up

>shirou
>good person
>victim of circumstance
>doesent fuck his life up nearly as badly

shirou is the far more sympathetic of the two

Shirou is more sympathic.

Kiritsugo is the much better character.

/thread.

better character too

>Kiritsugo is the much better character.
>"im an adult with the emotional and ideological maturity of a 13yo"
>good

Kiritsugu is a better person in that he actually wanted everyone to be happy, it was a desire that came to him. Shirou just adopted it, and really only follows the ideal because he is very distorted.

Sure you could make the case for post UBW Shirou, but that would still be just Shirou wanting the same as Kirirusgu because this is the beautiful ideal he happened to learn.

Kiritsugu is more sympathetic, because he actually developed his views and goals over the course of his life and then had to watch them get dashed against reality.
Shirou just copied him and abandoned those views or told reality to fuck off when they got tested.
Normal Shirou isn't even tragic character. Mind of steel and Archer are.

>Shirou adopted his ideals
>just like how he was adopted by Kerry
Nasu is a freaking genius!

Kiritsugu a bad person? You lost me, hon.

When you murder innocents and take hostages in order to fix a fight in your favor when you were probably going to win anyway, you are not a good person.

Its called anti-hero user.

kill the few to save the lot

It is what it is. It's better to make a choice, even a wrong one, than hesitate and have second thoughts. One of the points of both FZ and FSN.

> better person
> cheats on his wife
> condescending asshole to everyone that isn't Iri/Illya (and still...)
> would sacrifice his own family for his ideals
Nah he was shit. He got what was coming to him. Angry Manjew was right.

That said, one is an adult man with much more life experiences and a deeper characterization as a result of it. Shirou's just a teen who is still trying to figure out what he wants in life. It's comparing apples to oranges.

Is Kiritsugu really a condescending asshole?

...

user even Iri got tired of his shit at some point.

Literally irrelevant

UBW Shirou > Fate Shirou = Kiritsugu > HF Shirou

For all his experience, though, Kerry never really matured. His entire life was one long tantrum.

>>doesent fuck his life up nearly as badly
Archer

You can't choose to have e rank luck, user. You simply grow to accept it.

His life was fine. He died satisfied. Even if we think it's shit, as long as the person himself is okay with how it turned out, it's pointless to criticize it.

It's his eternal afterlife that he ended up ruining.

>UBW Shirou > Fate Shirou = Kiritsugu > HF Shirou
HF!Shirou is best Shirou, and that's that on that.

Fate Shirou reached for the stars and became one himself.

HF Shirou just lives a life of housework and debauchery.

He loves housework though
He's prime waifu material

also fucks best girl every day

but in hf he only fucked rin in a dream

I bet they do it all the time and never get tired, like it's always the first time.

She is his dream.

Kiritsugu is the more believable hence more sympathetic character. He's basically a grown up child soldier. Shirou is an amnesiac who's been orphaned twice and lives in a mansion by himself supported and doted on by a yakuza family. There's nothing remotely relatable about him past the fact that he goes to school.

>HF Shirou just lives a life of housework and debauchery.
And Shirou loves housework. In HF, he's living a nice and calm life with the woman he's in love with.

Shirou
>Selfdestructively insane
>dumb boring character design
>asspulls galore
>tragic past, but was probably too young to remember it past the age of 10 anyway

Kiritsugu
>Understandable emo
>tragic past, and was witnessing hell on the frontlines
>makes awful choices but they can still be explained
>Is one of the most serious and tactical minded characters drowning in the sea of retards and children that fate is
>fights realistically and modernly while everyone else spouts about "MUH HONOR" or "MUH NOBILITY"
>sees the truth of what the Grail truly is, while apparently no one else ever questioned it

Archer Shirou
>experienced a near eternity witnessing terrible shit before finally understanding a nobrainer: "you can't save everyone"
>wants to fucking KILL present Shirou because of this ???
>Design is the best out of the 3 but he's still the worst character

There is if you don't have a dad, and have to take care of people.

HF route was a failure. Shirou, Illya, Shinji and a whole lot of people died just in one route.

>>wants to fucking KILL present Shirou because of this ???
And how many times did (you) want to do it because of something that's water under the bridge ten times over?

It's better to give up your own happiness for the happiness of others. It still bothers me that Shirou gave up his ideals in HF just because he wanted to bang Sakura.

>fights realistically and modernly while everyone else spouts about "MUH HONOR" or "MUH NOBILITY"
Only Saber and Lancer spouted about those things. And Kiritsugu's methods ARE despicable, if only sometimes justified in that the people that he fights against could do worse.

>sees the truth of what the Grail truly is, while apparently no one else ever questioned it
Except not even Kerry knew the grail was corrupted. And Gilgamesh was doubtful of what the grail truly was. No one saw it coming, and it's understandable since you'd have to win the grail war to know what the nature of the grail really is.

>Is one of the most serious and tactical minded characters
Angra Manju wants to say otherwise.

Sakurafags are just sadists. I bet they all laughed when she lost her beloved brother.

>Kiritsugu was a badass
>Uses his servant as an instrument

>Shirou is a idealist child
>Falls in love with his own servant

It was the logical end that their path took them. Just because a lot of people died doesn't mean that it's a bad conclusion to the VN, far from it.

>Uses his servant as an instrument
Yeah and that worked wonders for him, right

I don't see you putting Fate Shirou above the rest though. There's nothing wrong with doing whatever you like, and each Shirou does just that you retard. In fact, HF Shirou has more of a choice.

That's because you're talking about two different anons.

>Only Saber and Lancer

>MUH NOBILITY
El Melloi, Gilgamesh, Tokiomi, Rin (sort of)
>MUH HONOR
Saber, Lancer (zero), Assassin (stay night)

>Kiritsugu's methods ARE despicable, if only sometimes justified in that the people that he fights against could do worse.
No, it's the mages that are despicable. Kiritsugu did not want to take any chances because he was in it to win it, that's why he fought """underhandedly"""

>Except not even Kerry knew the grail was corrupted
He had a hunch when he saw it, that's why he ordered saber to destroy it

Yes, he reached the final stage

he won the war
checkmate shiroufags

I like Shirou better, since I'm an idealist, but both of them are great characters. Maybe kerry a bit less so, but it's kinda unfair, since Kerry has one line of character development, while Shirou has 3.

>more sympathetic and tragic
Well, Kiritsugu of course. The guy's life was a lot shittier than Shirou's, who "only" lost his parents in that fire and it barely affected him.

>He had a hunch when he saw it,
Did... did you watched the finale? He ordered Saber to destroy it AFTER Angry Manjew shred his ideals to pieces. Before that, he was clueless as to what was going on.

> it's the mages that are despicable.
Newsflash: Kerry is a magus too. And he's despicable. Stay Night confirms this. The whole point is to make Shirou realize that even if Kerry was a terrible man, he can still take inspiration from what he did. Kerry being a terrible person IS necessary to make Shirou mature.

>El Melloi, Gilgamesh, Tokiomi, Rin (sort of)
Gil was pragmatic from start to end. He served himself on top of everything, killed his first master, and seduced Kirei to give in to his inner darkness, so I don't see where the "nobility" is. Tokiomi was just as pragmatic, but was outsmarted by Kirei and Gil. El Melloi is probably the only one that gave a shit about fighting like a magus, and lost because he expected others to do the same.

>Saber, Lancer (zero),
Yes, and it shows the consequences of having a tunnel vision and an inflexible value system. That said, Saber IS right in some regards, as inflexible as she may be, your methods by which you accomplish things do matter, as the grail showed Kiritsugu.

I'm talking about only Fate/Zero characters because characters from Fate like Rin and Shirou can develop in different ways depending on the route, so that's another discussion.

Yeah, he sure did

I mean, it's really what you relate to more. Kerry's a man who is pushed to the brink, trying to do his best to do the impossible, forced to lose everything in the process. Zero is the process of him losing all of these.

In Shirou's case, the loss already happen. Fuyuki burned him down to nothing, leading him to the whole survival's guilt cranked up to a hundred, and naively trying to follow Kerry's dreams, what led him to be broken in the first place. If Zero is a idealist being broken down, FSN is one being brought back up, with concessions, of course.

I'd vote for the guy who didn't kill his own mother, but eh whatever works for you I guess?

He didn't let anyone else use the Grail. It ought to count for something.

Win is Win

He won the War

His servant hates him, his wife would have hated him if she knew she was disposable as well, his daughter hates him, he won't be allowed to see said daughter for the rest of his days, and the only person in the world that doesn't judge him is an orphan that doesn't even know what he did. And maybe the daughter of some yakuza family, who isn't aware of what he has done either.

But hey, he won the war, so who cares? Not like losing everyone he cared about because he used them as disposable tools to achieve his ideal affected him or anything.

Shirou also wins the war, so what's your point?

Description of scene or it didn't happen.

Neither his wife nor his daughter hates him, where did you get that information you weaboo?

Kiritsugu
Is this even a question?

the most tragic one is the summoned spirit by these two.

>he was clueless as to what was going on.
Except he saw how fucked up the grail looked, when it was spilling blood
>grail shows him illusions and assures him that he deserves the grail
>He literally thinks "this is no omnipotent wish granting device" before ordering to destroy it


>Newsflash: Kerry is a magus too
he's less a magus than shirou was, not to mention he was technically just an antimage assassin

>I don't see where the "nobility" is
Gilgamesh is literally constantly yapping about him being superior and king of kings and nobody has the right to question him because he's THE king

You must've mistaken what kind of nobility I meant

I meant blue blooded rich people who act all mighty

What I like about Iliya movie is that it shows that Miyu's Shirou will not just bend over when the world keep taking those he loves, be they Kerry, Miyu, Julian, or Sakura. He's the opposite of Kerry in that path.

Just my 0.02 fujobucks.

Angra Manju absorbed Irisviel's personality and wishes, and is an exact copy of everything Iri was. And Iri Manju hated the fuck out of Kiritsugu for killing her and her daughter to achieve his ideal. So yes, Iri would have hated him if she found out she's also disposable.

Illya does hate Kerry in Fate/Stay Night because she thinks he abandoned her and replaced her with Shirou. But that one's debatable since how she feels about him changed from route to route.

Kiritsugu fanboy here. I think all you guys who think he's evil need to look at this little picture right here.

Have I made my point?

"Kiritsugu, Saber is talking to you"
"My husband talks about some shit I don't even understand, but I go along with it anyways"

>was probably too young to remember it past the age of 10 anyway

Apparently the only time he doesn't dream about walking through flames and the sound of people dying and begging him for help were the sex dreams that were pushed on him to steal his mana.

>would

One can become evil.
That said I have to say he more had a falling from grace and choose to take on a evil role to accomplish his goals.

>Except he saw how fucked up the grail looked, when it was spilling blood
You remember very wrong. Watch the finale again. He had no idea of what was going on until Manju started to show him how flawed his methods were. This all happened AFTER he was absorbed into the holy grail. After he chokes Iri and the grail kicks him out, he orders Saber to destroy it.

>he's less a magus than shirou was, not to mention he was technically just an antimage assassin
He's a magus. A magus killer, but a magus. He uses magic multiple times. So no, he's no different.

>Gilgamesh is literally constantly yapping about him being superior and king of kings and nobody has the right to question him because he's THE king
> The legendary figure of an ancient epic and probably mankind's oldest tale doesn't have the right to brag about it
I mean come on.

> perfect copy of irisviel

You only need to save one person once. It's more than enough.

People who hate Kerry need to remember that Filipinos/Filipinas are EXTREMELY emotional. It's only natural that what happened broke him.

> has his own magic crest
> but it's not a magus guys!!

Copies are not the real stuffs. I thought Gilgamesh taught it to everyone.

Kerry is not a filipino.

>copy

I'm sorry but Kiritsigu is a major fucking failure. I'm surprised Shirou didn't turn out to be such a loser like him.

Shirou is just young and naive.

Kiritsugu is a hot topic goth who never grew up

I have never seen "be patient, I'm a pinoy" being a legitimate defense.

>Copies are not the real stuffs
Except Angra Manju explicitly said it's the real stuff. He was Iri in everything but soul.

Yup. I mean, look at how happy Kiritsugu was in his last moments. This is for sure a bundle of happiness and joy.

>listening to Angry Manjew, who is the closest thing to a legit Satan in Fateverse
You what mate.

>Kiritsugu
>loser

Yeah, no. He's a sexy, gruff, brooding alpha male with countless murders under his belt.

I like Kiritsugu far more than Shirou.
He does do shitty things but never out of personal pleasure or advantage, but because it's necessary.
He sacrifices himself for others and only gains pain and hardship.

> I can only communicate like this with you because I absorbed your wife's personality
Angra Manju has no personality to begin with. He has no reason to lie when the personality that he uses to take form has no reason to either.

He gave others what he never had. If that's not happiness, I dont know what is.

>Kiritsugu
>Better person.
You are wrong on every conceivable level I'm virtually speechless.

Sure, sure. Look at how happy he is!

The most popular route of the series has Shirou damning himself to be the eternal protector of the world and mankind.

The really fucked thing is that they never allow a further future version of Archer who is mighty enough to be a true threat to the power houses in the series.

Only the really chuuni versions of shirou like the one from the prisma movie.

>The most popular route of the series has Shirou damning himself to be the eternal protector of the world and mankind.
UBW is about avoiding this to happen. You didn't pay attention at all.

I mean, I thought it was implied in all routes, that Shirou would reach a level of competence close to Archer in the future. Especially Fate and UBW, where he goes around the world saving people and killing terrorists and such.

Wait I thought Counter-Guardians are supposed to be strong as fuck?

They are if Gaia summons them, but in the 5th fuyuki war he was summoned by the grail so he gets downgraded into the archer archetype

>who "only" lost his parents in that fire and it barely affected him.
>barely affected him.
>barely affected him.
>barely affected him.
Why are there so many dumbasses who have never seen anything related to f/sn lately?

Nupe. Shirou is perhaps the single most disgusting anime character I have ever seen.

It still happens.
He's merely at peace with the inevitability of it occuring.
I've read that there's a possibility that Rin will become a goddess tier mage and pry him from the worlds hands but that's probably some fanfiction I read somewhere.

He doesn't in Fate, and in UBW it's a foregone conclusion that he gets somewhat close to what Archer could do(the fight between Archer and Gil would have been a one sided stomp because of experience and being a hard counter to the gate) but not have the power or same level of ability as him.

Well yeah he got some pretty fucked up trauma when he was 13 years old, and he was raised by a fucking Succubus.

You literally described Archer. Nice argument, idiot.