So we're agreed that the Buu saga ruined DBZ

>Gohan supposed to be the new hero but Goku comes back from the dead and steals the glory
>All these epic new forms like SSJ3, Mystic and fusion only for the villain to be defeated by a regular SSJ
>Goten and Trunks able to turn SSJ
>Goten and Trunks supposedly stronger than Frieza and Cell despite no combat experience whatsoever
>Main villain following Frieza and Cell who were utterly terrifying being an autistic manchild made out of bubblegum who likes eating candy and wants to destroy the world for no other reason than simply because he feels like it
>Goku and Vegeta being able to turn SSJ2 when that form was what made Gohan greater than the others

Even the two most le ebin scenes, which were Goku turning SSJ3 and Vegeta sacrificing himself were bullshit. SSJ3 was just a gimmick to make Gokufags go "wow, he's so awesome!", and the whole Majin Vegeta storyline was stupid, seeing as how Vegeta redeemed himself at the end of the Cell saga, only for him to become more evil than before.

I don't know why the Garlic Jr. saga is decided to be the worst saga because it was actually pretty entertaining and a lot better than the Buu saga.

Nah internal earth parasites for Goku to fight felt fine. Since he is a resident saint of the planet and all that.

Gohan should have been the hero in Cell saga.

SSJ3 was a mistake. That alone ruined the whole arc.

We get it, your a retard that thinks dogshit cell was a masterpiece.

King Piccolo > Buu > Freeze.

Nah. Tao Pai Pai ruined the series. It turned a comfy adventure comedy into a battle manga

>goku and vegeta being able too ss2
Nigga it's been like 7 years since cell

Also it was the spirit bomb that killed buu

He was.

Frieza was the best saga, but Cell was miles better than Buu.

Gohan jobbing was a mistake
SSJ for Goten and Trunks was a mistake
SSJ3 I can accept since it was shown to be a flawed form and effectively discarded since

But the biggest shitshow of them all were the fucking fusions. Ruined the sequel, games and other side material forever. I will never deal with this. Such a retarded concept.

Nah, fusions were fine. Having time limit for tension is fine. The problem was that it never went all out on it.

Nah Cell saga is what ruined DBZ

>Started Toriyama on the "There's always gotta be new transformations" meme
>Created higher states of Super Saiyan just because with nowhere near as much foreshadowing and buildup as the original
>Had retarded amounts of downtime for the heroes where they literally did either nothing or offscreen training
>Replaced Goku with Gohan under the excuse of his potential when he was always just a mid-level freak even with anger boosts
>Because the saga was such a waste of time it ended on a premature note with things like Android 18 and 17 coming back and just fuckng off, Vegeta left feeling like a broken shitstain and Goku just being dead

Android was alright and at least Buu felt like it had some tension and proper pacing but Cell is just a dumb childhood obsession you need to get over.

Cell saga is when the Super Saiyan thing started being done to death but nigga Gohan vs. Cell is the absolute high point of the entire Dragon Ball franchise.

It was total trash.

Buu Saga is easily the best in Z and debatably the best in the entire series. It has all the humor of early DB with all the drama of Z. It's actually creative too.

>When the real redpill is that DBZ was a mistake and Dragonball should have been the end of it

nothing that made Dragonball great is seen in DBZ and beyond.
I watched Dragonball 15 years after last time recently and it holds out very strong, but watching anything Dragonball Super is just cringy and boring

go watch the absolute first episodes of Dragonball again and you will see I am right

> MUH GOHAN
Fuck off, spic. Jobhan a shit.

Gohan wasn't supposed to be SSJ2 he was supposed to be special-snowflake SSJ.

>Goten and Trunks able to turn SSJ
Both Vegeta and Gohan got it pretty easily too.
>Goten and Trunks supposedly stronger than Frieza and Cell despite no combat experience whatsoever
There's no proof of that at all.
>Main villain following Frieza and Cell who were utterly terrifying being an autistic manchild made out of bubblegum who likes eating candy and wants to destroy the world for no other reason than simply because he feels like it
>19 and 20 were scary
>16, 17, and 18 were scary
>any form before Super Perfect Cell was scary at all
No villain has actually been good since Freeza, why do you think they keep using him as a crutch in Super?
>Goku and Vegeta being able to turn SSJ2 when that form was what made Gohan greater than the others
>7 years of training can't catch up, especially when Goku was nearly as strong as Gohan at the time anyway
Buu was a mess, but the androids and Cell weren't meaningful or climactic in the slightest.

>ruined
Everything dragon ball related from DBZ/grown up Goku is trash with absolutely nothing interesting or engaging going for it.

>Gohan supposed to be the new hero
I'm not even gonna finish reading this.

It'd be pretty cool lore-wise if Buu was the first God of destruction, or perhaps a proto-god of destruction, and ended up getting sealed when he was destroying planets faster than they could form.

I really like the Buu Saga for the more dragonball feel since cell was boring. But i have to agree with that a lot of it didnt make any sense.

I think we can most agree on that everything from the start of Z until the end of the Frieza saga was great. And then when the Android/Cell came along things became more and more of a retread through past plots and plot devices.

Like other anons have said the new forms (SS2 and SS3) proved to be quite useless and bland in the large scheme of things. It can be clearly seen that Toriyama was running more and more dry with every new development.

With all that being said I can recognize the flaws of the last two sagas and still appreciate the bits I do enjoy.

What didn't make sense about it? OPs only complaints was it wasn't another predictable cookie cutter carbon copy of the same saga before it like Cell. Buu being defeated by the Spirit Bomb made from everyone on Earth (and Namek and otherworld) was a pretty cool ending.

Buy had a lot of problems but wasn’t total trash like your saying. If they aged up Goten and Trunks the SSJ transformation would be more tolerable. Buuhan was a mistake but Fat and Kid Buu both being pure destructive evil and childish evil was a change of pace from the other monologue filled super serious villains.

Goku and Vegeta have actual development in Buu saga (with Goku becoming Uub's teacher in EoZ ending his character arc), meanwhile in the Cell saga they both do nothing other than acting like completely unlikable morons so the plot even has a chance to unfold.
>No guys lets not seek out and kill Gero now you all just know we will have real exciting battles against them 3 years from now if we leave them alone
>AAAA my saiyan pride go on Cell become perfect so I can kick your ass even after you are done powering up
>Here Cell eat this Senzu so Gohan can have fun fighting you
Cell arc is a complete disgrace, far worse than anything to happen in Buu. It is unbearable to actually read and watch when the few relevant characters act like total jerks (and no, Gohan does not count seeing as he was irrelevant for 90% of the arc until the Cell games. He had his own fuck up even in his short time in the spotlight, too) and that makes it all the more hard to look past the various BS moments from the beggining with the modified humans stronger than Freeza and also time travaler SS1 warrior (back when SS was still supposed to be the warrior of legend from every 1,000 years) down to the last moment asspulls with Perfect Cell.

was this rape?

SSJ3 already had the time limit tension, it was flawed because it drained all your energy almost immediately.

Also nothing kills buu and his regeneration is free, so a super cheap villain.

>I don't know why the Garlic Jr. saga is decided to be the worst saga because it was actually pretty entertaining and a lot better than the Buu saga.


actually I kinda liked the Buu saga, the heroes were at a super disadvantage the entire time with very high stakes, and yet they ground through, it was also a nice arc for gohan who basically saved the day and killed everyone.

but why didn't the spirit bomb just blow him to pieces to reassemble again like all the other time they blew him up?

Because it was too strong.

Good energy>evil

>Both Vegeta and Gohan got it pretty easily too.
Vegeta got his from dispair and gohan got his from desperation, and Future trunks got his from loss, like goku,

and goten and Trunks got theirs for free.

the garlic jr. saga was fine I thought. a nice mini boss without overpowered characters to instantly resolve the problem.

Buu Saga was the perfect blend of action and comedy.

>Gohan got his from desperation
Gohan got his offscreen within a year training with his father. The anime made this much mor significant but the manga just shows him already able to do it.

and all the other shit wasn't? how is getting blown up by the spirit bomb different than being blown up with ki blast? could that kill him the entire time? is there some stupid co-efficient energy they were just short of?

that's dumb, the spirit bomb fails to kill anyone else.

better than kid trunks and goten getting it for no reason.

Not even close. Buu Saga was a breath of fresh air after the slog that is the android saga. It feels like Toriyama is actually having fun with the manga for the first time in years.

This is the same Series where Goku learned how to read minds because he "just thought it'd work". Stop taking this so seriously. You're ruining it for yourself.

I agree.

well, to be fair, that was used once, only to avoid on screen exposition,

goten and Trunks being ssj1 for no reason became a huge plot point with the whole fusion crap.

>bad from another world threatens humanity
>goes through three forms more powerful than before
>MC must advance to a different power level to defeat him

Dragon Ball Z should have ended at one season if it wasn't going to be different afterwards. I preferred Dragon Ball myself and didn't mind GT for being different at least.

If you watched/read it as it came out you'd know that nobody wanted Gohan to replace Goku at all. His cell moment was cool and it was stupid they made him useless during Buu but if he replaced Goku the anime would have lost viewers and the manga would have lost sales

>Goten and Trunks supposedly stronger than Frieza and Cell despite no combat experience whatsoever
the Cell barrier was only just broken by Goku and Vegeta when they went Super Saiyan 2 you retard, Goten and Trunks may have been beyond Freeza just by sole account of having Super Saiyan (even then its tenuous at best) but they would have been stomped by Cell

But user, if Toriyama ended it so soon then great scenes like this wouldn't exist.

Then he should have gave Freiza only one form and just have it as a surprise he can even fight.

but mystic gohan was so cool, they had no reason to job him other than to abuse fusion (to no end) and give more spot light to goku and his stupid SSJ3 form .

>Like other anons have said the new forms (SS2 and SS3) proved to be quite useless

SSJ2 was only useless against Buu because Buu was just that powerful, same way SSJ1 was generally useless against the post-Frieza saga villains.

The fight between SSJ2 Gohan and Cell was one of the most one sided fights in the entirety of DBZ, until Cell blew himself up and came back as Super Perfect Cell, but even then, if Gohan's arm wasn't broken and his confidence hadn't been shattered, he still probably could have stomped SPC.

>Gohan does not count seeing as he was irrelevant for 90% of the arc until the Cell games

People raise this complaint quite often but I liked this.

During the Frieza saga, everyone pretty much knew that the final showdown was going to be between Goku and Frieza. But who would have predicted that the final showdown would be between Gohan and Cell, and Gohan would become super powerful and win?

No it was Cell Saga

>Future trunks got his from loss
Future Trunks had SS1 way before Future Gohan's death. Him going blonde over the loss of his mentor is non canon, and so is Toei's Super anime for referencing it among other things.

It's a shame, the Saiyaman Saga and even the Tenkaichi Budokai arc until the Majins appeared were pretty good.

So is Pan going to be stronger than her grand father and daddy were at her age or are only male saiyans allowed to increasingly grow in power?

Garlic Jr. Saga had potential, but it was ruined by having more episodes than it could comfortably fill, causing it to drag.

>SSJ3
>epic new form
SSJ3 was the moment the whole series became irredeemable. Stacking numbers on the end of the form is retarded and giving characters new transformations off screen is even worse.