MSM is trying to only emphasize the retarded plan of lopping 0's off the currency but the real story is the challenger's plan: Stop printing money and adopt the US dollar.
>Venezuela hopes to tackle the world’s worst inflation by deleting zeros from its currency By Rachelle Krygier and Anthony Faiola March 23 at 2:44 PM Email the author
>A man shows bolivar notes after withdrawing them from an automated teller machine in Caracas, Venezuela. (Marco Bello/Reuters) CARACAS, Venezuela — Economic pledges may be par for the course in election campaigns, but in hyperinflationary Venezuela, the candidates' dueling promises are going further, with the incumbent vowing to lop a few zeros off the currency, while his main challenger calls for the adoption of the U.S. dollar.
>“One is a superficial, makeup-like change, and the other is an actual restructuring aimed at stopping inflation,” Leidenz said.
>Stop printing money and adopt the US dollar. Oh cool, another country we can export our dept to. The U.S government prints money which steals a little bit of value out of all dollars in existence and then the new money is funneled into the U.S economy through bloated massive government spending programs, contracts, military etc. Thanks for volunteering to become a vassal of the USA. Normally that just happens to countries without freedom and democracy. You should also appreciate the extra freedom you'll be receiving if we don't get privileged access to your oil reserves.
Mason Sullivan
Venezuela was never socialist. It was a monopoly capitalist banana republic.
Parker Wilson
80% of the economy is private businesses competing on the market. Countries in Europe have less than this making them much more socialist.
This is capitalism admitting defeat unless you are calling France more socialist than Venezuela.
Nicholas Walker
Chavez already did this 10 years ago, did lefties forget?
Andrew Wood
hmmm
does that mean they will be hoarding US dollars and reducing our monetary inflation?
that would be a good thing for us
Lincoln Walker
Platinum for mental gymnastics there, che.
Owen Edwards
I don't see how this would help their situation, adopting the dollar is a misunderstanding of how "inflation" is operating in Venezuela. For instance, it is well known in America that you could live in the midwest and have everything be very cheap, or you could live in California and have everything be very expensive. Would this relative price difference be called "inflation"?
Point being, Venezuela has inflation because, as far as I know about their situation, they have a lack of supply of highly demanded goods. Even if you switch to dollars, you can have local price differences in the same currency. It may just be that suddenly is costs $20 to get a lb of chicken, or whatever. Then the Venezuelan government institutes price controls on chicken to try to make it more accessible to the poor, and they have to ration it because the problem was that there is literally not enough chicken for everybody at whatever price they'll set it. Meanwhile, they'll be tying one hand behind their backs because now they don't even have a sovereign currency.
Elijah Murphy
thanks
Levi Rogers
Lmao fucking commies always backtracking
Samuel Flores
Haha We tried that once.
Protip: It didnt work.
Logan Ross
>they have a lack of supply of highly demanded goods.
Don't they have a lack of supply of highly demanded goods because of a lack of value in a socialist corrupted government though?
To simplify the logic substitute something that retains value that doesn't get consumed like a chicken would. Like an ounce of gold.
>ounce of gold offered to socialist economy >someone buys it with hyperinflated paper >the value (worth) of the outside person selling it is reduced, therefore he wouldn't do this in the first place because Venezeulan cash is worthless
>ounce of gold offered to capitalist economy >capitalist buys it with US dollars >net worth of person isn't reduced because dollars retain value compared to hyperinflated paper. >The backing of US government and strong capitalism has generated worth (value) outside it's own economy
Is it truly a logistical problem as you say or is it a problem that the economy has no worth, therefore no ability to do logistics in the first place? Socialism and good feelings won't ship goods, but dollars will. Authoritarian socialist seizures can force people to ship good temporarily I guess before they bail from a bad situation.
Maybe we can get an actual Venezuelan to chime in as I'm sure we're both burgers talking out of our ass.
Cameron Walker
...
Jordan Cooper
Look at their ruling politicians and their policies and tell me with a straight face they arent commies
Connor Mitchell
Ruling politicans means nothing when the economy is capitalist. If bernie sanders the fuckin commie became president it doesn't automatically turn us into a communist country.
From what I understand, they have a lack of supply of goods because they imported a lot of their goods before through selling oil abroad, and when oil prices collapsed they didn't have much foreign reserves saved to continue supporting their imports. They started using their reserves to pay debts they had in foreign currency, and tried to take over a bunch of industries to boost domestic production to meet demand. They ultimately failed, and right now you can sell US dollars for Bolivars in Venezuelan black markets for way over its value. I don't even know how high, it's supposed to be stupidly high. The government tries to restrict this with capital controls that set the price of Bolivars to USD, but of course people try to get around it because they desperately want dollars so they can import stuff.
But the reason I think switching their currency to US dollars won't fix this is that it would clash with government policy. The reason they don't have the foreign reserves saved up in the first place was because under Chavez it was all spent very quickly on imports which were then subsidized by the government for the poor. This was workable only because they continued to have a good enough inflow of foreign currency from oil sale abroad. But once that stopped, they had no foreign reserves to continue facilitating the demand that the economy was used to. So if they switch to dollars with the same policy that they are going to subsidize through price controls the consumption of certain goods that they will be importing, the government is likely going to go into a totally intractable debt in dollars. Since they can't print dollars, this will put them in danger of a default.
Of course, they'll have to go into a big dollar debt anyways because they don't have many dollars right now as it is, and if they want to switch their currency to dollars they'll need some way to get them. 1/2
Nicholas Richardson
>Oh cool, another country we can export our dept to. wtf is this suppose to mean? We're the global currency. usually when we print money the value of our dollar goes up. >damand for usd is 5 trillion >us prints 3 trillion >value rises not that hard to understand.
Kevin Cox
Now, I don't know who the politician is that has this dollar plan, but I can guarantee that the switch would put Venezuela into a policy of fiscal austerity if they don't want to go in default, which even Maduro doesn't want because his government had tried to pay all of its foreign debts. Maybe some pro-capitalists would be favorable to this, so I'm not sure if that candidate is a right-winger, but honestly this probably wouldn't even be the best policy for Venezuela because total austerity doesn't seem necessary to get out of their predicament. They need to rebuild their economy away from oil exports, which means that the overzealous Maduro government needs to reconfigure its attempts to stop the blow that they took from loss of imports. I don't know the full extent of their policy, but I've heard some things out of Venezuela that just sound retarded which make me think the government must not be handling this well. They can have limited price controls for necessary goods. Hell the United States did it when we experienced the oil supply shock during the OPEC crises, we also did it in WW2. When there are essential goods that are scarce, there is nothing you can do in the short term that is going to make them suddenly appear out of thin air. Rationing isn't a bad policy, but you also need to make sure that the industry required to end the rationing has a way of building up. Apparently Venezuela tried nationalization, but they didn't do a very good job of it so they should probably cut that out. I'm sure it is also creating instability in the market because nobody knows what the fuck is going on, people don't want to put their own money on the line in a big business venture if it's just going to be taken over or suffocated by Maduro.
But anyways, I'm kind of rambling now.
Evan Phillips
how are they going to call it now "bolivar super fuerte"? then "bolivar super duper fuerte"? they already did with chavez. they deserve death.
Caleb White
In my lifetime, almost 50, the value of the dollar has always decreased. what does value rises mean with regards to the usd$ ?
Jose Stewart
You're thinking of inflation. This means that a dollar yesterday is not worth as much as a dollar yesterday. This happens because the Federal Reserve is continually printing more dollars. For complicated reasons, this is a good thing.
What the other user is talking is supply and demand of dollars. This happens because dollars are used internationally. The vast majority of countries actually keep stockpiles of US dollars and then use them for trade. Other countries' demand for dollars continually rises, so even though there are more dollars tomorrow, as long as everybody else's economies are growing, their demand for dollars grows. This makes dollars overall more valuable, even though the value of a dollar is tomorrow is relatively less valuable than a dollar tomorrow. The only way this wouldn't happen is if another currency (like the Euro) becomes more valuable than the dollar and countries start to stockpile Euros to buy goods with Euros instead of dollars, but this won't happen for at least a very long time, because the vast plurality of international trade is between the US and other countries.
Basically, economics is black magic and you're not going to understand it all just from helpful anons.
decreases in value relative to what? I think you mean the purchasing power has gone down in your lifetime?
Adam Martinez
What you're seeing now is super Bolivar
Joshua Hall
This is beyond super Bolivar, I call it super Bolivar 2.
Noah Reed
they are demanding the 5 trillion by exchange of nothing because they don't have 5 trillion in asset. The pres is stupid at just lopping a few zeros off the money, but the other side that demand burger money is even more retarded because they think all they have to do is go to burgerking and tell them to give them the cash and the burgerking will just hand the cash over without paying for the burger money.
How many times did Bernie present Venezuela as the Socialist paradise example...
What a senile old fuck. He made Cruz look like a fucking genius in comparison during the healthcare & economy debates.
Liam Diaz
And now this is to go even further beyond. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH.
Behold... super Bolivar 3!
Elijah James
Platinum for mental gymnastics there, che.
Easton Cox
wtf did i just read? How do you think a country enters the dollar zone? Or eurozone for that matter. If a country has the reserves then they can unilaterally change their currency to an existing one (see iceland flirting with the euro). Since oil is sold in dollars I'm guessing they have a good reserve but honestly i have no idea.
Matthew Nguyen
Two separate issues.
A non-competitive economy that fails to produce desired goods will certainly face problems in terms of its economic health, but I think the point of switching to US dollar is that it is stable. If you have incompetent/corrupt people running your national currency then it could be better to adopt the US dollar. Even then it's a deal with the devil
Logan Fisher
Chavez took over with an armed coup, it's a bit different. Venezuela is socialist and has a currency, it's not 'capitalist', the means of production like oil are nationalized.
Nathaniel Watson
>Even then it's a deal with the devil why? the entire economy is traded in that denomination anyways.
Colton Jones
Apparently they have around $9 billion in reserves right now. In 2014 they had over $20 billion, for some context. They've been on a downtrend for over a decade though, they had $40 billion before 2008. This really was all Chavez's fault for not doing more to develop the economy away from imports based on oil profits.
Jonathan Torres
>Chavez took over with an armed coup, it's a bit different. How so? >Venezuela is socialist and has a currency, Source?
>t's not 'capitalist', the means of production like oil are nationalized. That's the 20% of the economy thats public. 80% is private. Again. European countries like France/Sweden has more than than 20% of the economy public. That would make them more socialist. You can't refute that.
Jack Scott
>9 billion kek.
Sebastian Campbell
The commies here just spout retarded memes and bernie-isms so I tried to find a better argument from our more advanced paid commie friends at WaPo
In the same breath they list bolivia as a socialist success story and also admit they had tons of oil wealth at the time. I'm kinda struck by the fact that any partial "success" you ever hear about from socialism is in a country with some ton of natural resource setup or limited homogenous population that all share the same cultural value. Like Russia before the collapse of USSR with oil etc.
The currency is more stable for international trade, but as far as I can see what is being proposed is effectively going into debt in USD, which they could just do right now without abandoning their currency. The big reason to do it would be to get much needed imports, but in terms of importing consumer goods it won't solve their problems because they need something to send out to get dollars without continuously going into debt for them. If they DO continuously go into debt, for instance, they're just kicking the can of hyperinflation down the road. Imagine if they start bringing in a bunch of dollars and buying consumer shit abroad, if that is what they were to do. They don't build up their industry because Maduro continues Chavez policies which suffocated domestic industry previously, which means they don't have anything to export and are still trying to pretend they live in better days of good oil exports. Eventually they have a debt crises and maybe even have to default, but whatever they do it is likely dollars will suddenly become scarce. Now they have a new supply shock that will probably spiral out of control for different reasons than currently, because capital is so scarce that nobody can really invest and simultaneously everybody needs money to buy goods. Businesses are shutting down, supply continues being constrained and prices rise, which nobody can really profit on because dollars may even be getting sucked out of the economy.
Brandon Roberts
It's this one actually.
Jackson Foster
>Sowell This guy is pretty alright.
Carter Ramirez
>wtf is this suppose to mean? We're the global currency. usually when we print money the value of our dollar goes up. Thats true, but thats because we're stealing the value out of other economies who use the dollars we print. Yes, the overall value of each dollar goes down when we print a new dollar, but since we're the ones printing and spending the new dollars we get a net increase in the US economy.
Imagine if you have a trillion dollar economy and print a trillion more, You don't magically make a trillion more in value because you didn't make anything more than an I.O.U, instead everything like wages and costs of goods and services double. Sure, the effectiveness of the dollar halves, but you have twice as many dollars so it all works out. It's why countries don't normally run their printing presses in overdrive, it just creates massive inflation.
Now imagine that the US has a trillion dollar economy and Venezuela sells off its natural resources and does back alley blowjobs and scrapes together it's own trillion dollar economy. Now imagine that the US prints another trillion dollars. What went from a 1:1 in value went to a 2:1 in favor of the U.S and now the U.S with it's extra trillion dollars can just buy out what it wants from Venezuela for cheap.
Aiden Garcia
>it's only real socialism if the government controls the means of production, but if the government controls the means of production its not real socialism
Christopher Morgan
I don't think government control is socialist actually. I'm just using their logic to show them why it's retarded to say Venezuela is socialist. If "government control of the means of production" is what socialism is than France is more socialist than Venezuela by definition.
France is more socialist or neither are socialist. Those are the only two options.
Joseph Brooks
So what, they'll just have $99999999999999 for a bit of bread?
Jordan Garcia
True socialism doesn't exist. It will always require a central body with a monopoly on force to redistribute resources however they see fit. Which is why the cognitive dissonance of socialist is so fascinating. They hate tyrannical governments, but demand one controls every aspect of their lives.
Jordan Richardson
Do you see my flag? Do you know what that is?
Nolan Reed
You forgot secret option 3: France is more white than Venezuela. Leftists always seem to forget that which is weird because Marx and everyone else from the 1800s hated niggers.
Jackson Moore
That is irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the economy is socialist but thanks for comment.
Justin Murphy
You've posted under two and they have different meanings to people. One could be a Stalinist or deluded communist who thinks the USSR was real communism. Or an anarchist which simply means no rulers or an ancom which is just as deluded as USSR being real communism.
Anthony Foster
>It will always require a central body with a monopoly on force to redistribute resources however they see fit. >Or an anarchist which simply means no rulers
Which is it?
William Clark
You're conflating anarchism with communism. The two are not the same
Wyatt Adams
They are the same.
Julian Hernandez
Actually no. To phrase it better. Communism is anarchism but anarchism is not communism.
Kayden Ortiz
>the race of a nation is irrelevant we're talking about economy hahahaha What a stupid statement. It's like if I compared how well a 3rd grader could do calculus compared to a uni student (such as nonwhite to white in running a society) and you say "well who ate a more balanced breakfast?"
The issue isn't the food it's the age in my analogy. In our discussion, the issue isn't the economy so much as it is the people involved in it. Whites in charge of capitalism will be better than nonwhites anywhere. Whites in charge of "socialism" (AKA European economy, not "real" socialism) will be better than nonwhites.
Mason Davis
This. Voluntarily adopting a currency that can be printed at will by another country is absolutely retarded.
Josiah Taylor
> Do you see my flag? Do you know what that is? Yes, a difficult puberty.
Wyatt Jackson
how do you explain the US then a nation of non whites?
Blake Cox
We aren't talking about whether the economy is good or not you retard. We are only talking about if it's socialist.
It doesn't matter if the 80/20 economy was black, white, asian, female only. That doesn't change what the economy is.
Mason Morgan
Tell that to Chomsky
Robert Young
His email is open. He will answer any questions
Nolan Morgan
The goal of communism is a stateless, classless society. Which isn't possible without force. Stateless maybe, but classless no.
There is no feasible way to ensure equality of outcomes at all, even with force. Just for example replace money with sex. Some people are more attractive than others. The communist approach to this would be that all outcomes being equal there should be no disparity of partners or quality of partners in dating.
Jace Sanders
I'd ask why he's manipulating young white males into fighting "the capitalist corporations and imperialist governments", but I already know the answer: because if they didn't waste their time with it, they might fight his tribe.
Jason King
Now if Trump wanted to take down Venezuela, all he would have to do is crash the US economy, in-turn crashing Venezuela's dollar-dependent economy, causing riots and dead Venezuelan government officials. 4D chess...
Jack Sanchez
Can you please ask him that seriously. It won't take long. It would be hilarious. Can you post the response to /r/chomsky.
Jeremiah Miller
then go ask him retard >fight his tribe found the peterson cultist
Ethan Foster
I pet goat pt. 2 called this. The south american drowning with his hammer and sickle in hand.
That's why the US has propped up dictators at times, anarchy guaranteed a more ruthless dictator usually rose to power after killing everyone else off so everyone properly feared him.
#2 is a fairy tale for bernouts to masturbate to. It might be useful as an idea in a political discussion like zero is useful to mathematics but trying to construct a system around zero means of course annihilation of everything.
Isaac Hall
I pet goat II is arguably one of the greatest pieces of art so far this millenium.
Gavin Barnes
Can you define socialism, communism, and then anarchism. You seem to have no understanding of any of these. At least the dude I was arguing was almost close.
Jose Clark
>wanted to take down Venezuela
Connor Cook
Sup Forums not paying respect to Putin's good friend.... what's going on?
Noah Bennett
>linking an article instead of making an argument
If you don't believe that equality of outcome is a goal of communism then you don't believe in a classless society. If there are people of higher status, they will exert more influence on society than others.
If it requires force, such a force is applied by a class with more power than other classes.
Aaron Gomez
By the looks of that flag neither do you.
Andrew Perry
The US was more or less successful when it was majority white, now it is floundering. New Rome. >if it's socialist There is no such thing as socialism in this world. None of it is "real socialism" so neither nation is socialist :^)
>it doesn't matter what race all that matters is if it's socialist Stop trying to change the frame. My argument is that France is better than Venezuela because it is whiter and you have done nothing to disprove this. So I will have to say that you must agree with me.
Levi Collins
Isn't a goal*
Juan Brown
Ammerimutt dictators were always worse than anything that came before Fuck i dislike trots but This is basically the Fascist Brazil vs British Empire thing If the brits win, they will just place a puppet that is more or less the same as the fascist dictator While if the the Brits were to lose then it would be easier to prop up a revolution in their Empire and topple the Brazil dictator later
Mason Garcia
>>linking an article instead of making an argument >Linking the wikipedia page on equality of outcome which says Communism is often conflated with it but wrong.
> If there are people of higher status, they will exert more influence on society than others.
You don't understand what Marx meant by classes. When he says classes he only means the Proletariat and Bourgeoisie and when those are gone is when you have a classless society.
>If it requires force, such a force is applied by a class with more power than other classes.
The force is applied by the entire proletariat until there is no more private property and then no more force is needed. That's how revolutions work. They aren't peaceful.
Bernie wears 700 dollar coats and drives pic related.
He sells you idiotic dreams and you and other foolish constituents keep him in a wealthy lifestyle with a couple of million dollar homes.
That's capitalism. Freedom of association and trade. You trade him votes and support, he trades you the broken ramblings of a senile old man that was a big a failure as Marx other than the charity of other gullible idiots.
Socialism: state redistributes wealth for the "common good"
Communism: state seizes wealth for the "common good"
Anarchism: faggots that have nothing because they are too stupid to live in the real world fantasize about the absence of any government.
At no point in time do I need to define jack shit to some leftypol commie's satisfaction to make fun of them because:
At any time I can point to countless real world failures. The systems require too much government intervention to solve problems or, are the completely delusional fantasies of an edge lord vaper/pot smoker. Frequently both.
At no point in time will socialism and communism ever be true solutions, because to deny people the freedom to associate in trade is oppression.
I don't want to fund planned parenthood for example because they murder infants in the womb.
Anarchy as a political system is too stupid to bother addressing.
Please take a shower today and cut your hair.
Blake Sullivan
>Proletariat and Bourgeoisie The definitions of these literally hinge on whoever is in charge of every communist revolution. As it turns out it's aways the guy with the most power in the highest class. Communism has no solution to this whatsoever.
Lincoln Richardson
You have no understanding of anarchism socialism or communism either.given away by the fact your Larping with anarchist flag.
>The definitions of these literally hinge on whoever is in charge of every communist revolution. As it turns out it's aways the guy with the most power in the highest class. Communism has no solution to this whatsoever.
Not really Marx defined it pretty simply. The proletariat are the people who don't own private property and the bourgeoisie are the people who do.
And in every revolution all property is seized by the party not the people. Again communism has no solution to this because resources must be managed. Ethier by command control or free market price discovery.
Wyatt Stewart
>And in every revolution all property is seized by the party not the people. Marx wouldn't like that.
Carson Lee
Marx also didn't like reality.
Cameron Rivera
You don't know what Marx liked. You never read Marx.
