Why don't Fate/Stay Night fans respect "secondaries"...

Why don't Fate/Stay Night fans respect "secondaries". The VN is niche because it's about an unrelatable protagonist and only sometimes about battle royale.

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fate zero is mediocre shit

Because Zero fags are insufferable. I like Apocrypha tought

A primary is now someone who plays FGO, since that's the primary entry in the franchise now.

>Protagonist has to be relatable
>Kiritsugu is relatable

Layers of bait upon bait...

What's up with Apocrypha? Season break?

>Shirou relatable
>Sirg relatable

Waver's relatable. And F/Z is actually a real FFA, unlike F/SN or F/A.

In the West it is completely normal to "relate" to trench coat protagonists.

Most VN fans are incredibly hostile to secondaries because of the immense amount of time investment required to complete them.

What makes F/SN especially bad is that the first two routes (and the first in particular) are trash and fodder for the only good route in the whole story (even though Sakura is worst girl).

shit taste

Can you read? The comment implies protagonists do not have to be relatable to be good.
>Waver is the protagonist
I thought Nasu told you no, Urobuchi.

because all secondary fate material apart from fate zero is irredeemable sellout trash
the original VN is actually good and it pisses me off to see a bunch of 'fans' who can't appreciate it and play shitty mobile games instead

Are you somehow going to argue that HA isn't the best route?

Or, are you a wormslutslut?

Daily reminder that Zero was the peak of perfection for the series, and the only real Holy Grail War that isn't my teenage highschool sex novel.

Why one should respect people, who didn't bothered to read source material only to engage themselves in argument with non full or disordered information and waste everyone's time on fruetless shitposting. Sure i can somewhat understand them, but that doesn't make them even slightly right.
Personally i always prefer source material if possible, because i value depth more than animation and the like.

Likable protagnonist? Check.
Good selection of masters and heroic spirits? Check.
Great fights? Check.
Great music? Check.
Ending that satisfying? Check.

F/Z is hands down the best Fate and there is no debate.

You probably couldn't understand UBW, brainlet.

>I understood it, but that didn't make it any less shit.
Hurr-durr, muh ideals, muh superhero, Kerry was wrong, my CG self was wrong, "be better than I was," yada yada yada

UBW is pretty much tripe, and the only people who think it was intellectual are anything but.

Nasu's views and Butcher's are vastly different. Because of two different authors worked on one continuous work in the same universe it created two different fanbases with different tastes, which inevitably and always will be at odds with one another. But it also somewhat smart that basically one work still appeals to vastly different groups. Pros and cons with no real conclusion, and army of trolls ready to chew on their designed opponent.

shit, gil's thread got nuked before i could reply, i hope he reads it here.

>There's still a mechanism for "why he doesn't have alien things." It's because they originated from a different point. Not just because they belong to something other than humanity. Unless Gilgamesh visited the spirit world he doesn't have its stuff.
why the fuck are you making your own head canon?

>Gilgamesh is a collector of treasure. "I collected all the treasures of the earth," is Gilgamesh's favorite phrase, but that is not a metaphor. He collected and stored away a sample of all the technology that was developed during his age and sealed them.
That which Gilgamesh stored, rather than being treasure, is "the origin of the intelligence of mankind" itself. If it does not exist in Gilgamesh's treasury, then it is "something produced by a new breed of humanity, according a completely new concept," "something made from the technology of the culture born from the intelligent life from another heavenly body," one of the two.
For that reason, of course he has airplanes and submarines. The desires of the people from before Christ are not different, and it would not do for the crafts of ancient times when magic was in good health to be inferior to the crafts of the modern age. People generally realize the "tools of hope" that they dream of, and each time that occurs, it ended with them being confiscated by the king's hand.
there are no such things as different culture or originated from different point bullshits.
gil has every single prototype that human made on earth's nook and cranny.

we're hostile towards them because they're more often than not morons who don't know what they're talking about and bother with the most superficial aspects of the Fate series.

Because Fate/Stay Night is a fantastic VN that spawned a shit mass media franchise with obnoxious fans that do nothing but devalue the original work. It would be better if there was never any kind of anime adaptation or prequel or anything
7/10 made me reply

I fucked up my green text, whatever.

>HA
?

I meant HF, but HA was also better than Fate and UBW.

if only due to the lack of Rider rimjobs

Yeah and it's not even possible to have a proper Fate/Stay Night anime because Shirou's character and arguments are mostly conveyed through his thoughts. He would of had to have been a less subtle character for adaptations to work, but that would be insulting to readers intelligence.

Because secondaries refuse to even consider the idea that FSN has multiple routes, and as a result they just bitch that UBW didn't turn out the way they wanted.

Because they can't accept Fate Zero is miles better than their shitty VN.

Because they can't accept Fate Stay Night is miles better than their shitty LN

Carnival Phantasm is the only good type moon anime.

You mean Prisma Illya dubbed
youtube.com/watch?v=DD45mQSuV6E

>thinking the routes are distinct stories
Guess who's the real brainlet?

I'm just gonna say it. VN's writing is so long winded and insufferable there's no way I'm ever gonna finish it. I do like the concepts, but the S/N anime left a lot to be desired. F/Z is the only good Fate anime to date. Except for Prism movie, maybe. I'd feel frustrated for having to do games and the VN now because it's a time sink, but I don't since looking at all the alternative universes and fanservice, Fate has been ruined by its own fans and creators. If I wasn't a secondary, I'd embarrassed to be a fan of it. I'm so sorry for having your franchise, VN fags.

t. edgy brainlet

>The VN is niche because it's about an unrelatable protagonist and only sometimes about battle royale.
The VN is niche because VNs are less accessible. F/SN isn't that niche, it's one of the most popular VNs and a typical gateway. But anime is more accessible and then certain anime are more accessible than others.

>calling Sakura worst girl while acknowledging that Fate and UBW are both shit
Bait, only shounenfags who like UBW hate Sakura.

I like UBW and I don't hate Sakura. UBW and HF are my tied favorite routes but Rin is the better girl in all 3 routes

>Rin is the better girl in all 3 routes
>"Whenever she called me nee-san I really wanted to kill her."
>*panickedly shouting*"She could be possessed by Zouken to kill us at any second we have to kill her, waaah!"
>when she herself proposed that Zouken wanted to keep Shirou alive
>shirou seems to be successful in talking down sakura and has a means of saving her from the shadow
>*interjects*"Haha, go ahead and try, and when you get there, we'll just kill you anyways."
>proceeds to chicken out
>following her advice consistently leads to dead ends
>gets insecure when shirou displays more knowledge of ancient weapons than her
>fails to accomplish anything in her own route other than forging a pact with saber only to get abducted anyways, then having shirou use her magical energy way more effectively than she could
>"Sex is standard procedure."
Nothing personnel.

>and only sometimes about battle royale
This is the main problem of F/SN. It's not about Grail War that Shirou also participates in, it's about Shirou and his harem that are, so happens, also a part of Grail War.
And this makes it shit.

>if a work focuses on themes and character driven narratives instead of muh super kewl grail war bullshit it's shit
Zerofags everybody.

The problem is - Grail war is not really all that important in SN, it's just a mere background that could've been literally anything else, which makes it shit.

meanwhile Sakura isn't even relevant for 2/3 of the whole plot, and where she is relevant she's even more useless than Rin ever was

Because if you haven't read the source material you're talking out your ass, it's as simple as that.

>kills literally all of the antagonists in her route

The problem is - the characters are not really all that important in Zero, they're just faceless assholes that could've been literally anyone else, which makes it shit.

but that's wrong, and even those she did kill were really killed by the Manjew, you silly billy

Dark Sakura is Sakura, as confirmed by Kotomine and the narration.

At least this makes sense in a WAR.
Grail War>shounen harem bullshit

>believing the priest

Because they don't research the source material and ask stupid questions all the time?
Zerobabies are the worst because they didn't even read FZ's LN.

Villains who Saber defeats in her route:
>Rider
>Berserker
>Gilgamesh

Villains who Rin defeats in her route:
>

Villains who Sakura defeats in her route:
>Shinji
>Kotomine
>Zouken
>True Assassin

>Grail war is important

The fact that it isn't makes SN shit.

>this story isn't another generic gimmicky battle royale knockoff that has the artistic value of a smash bros fan fiction, making it shit REEEEEE

>Kotomine
>True Assassin
But that's wrong.
>Shinji
>Zouken
Squashing bugs doesn't count.

Also
>forgetting that without Rin Shirou wouldn't be able to tell his ass from his elbow, let alone surviving his first encounter
>forgetting that Rin willingly puts herself in danger, while Sakura has to be forced to get off the bench in her own route

Except there is absolutely no proper supernatural battle royale in existence except for Zero, as literally every other is just centered around ̶c̶h̶a̶r̶a̶c̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶d̶r̶i̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶n̶a̶r̶r̶a̶t̶i̶v̶e̶s̶
shounen harem stuff.
SN itself is a generic (there is over 9000 of stuff like this) gimmicky (centered around Grail War, but War itself is not important) shounen haremshit version of battle royale that has value of a fanfiction.

...

>if a work focuses on themes and character driven narratives instead of muh super kewl grail war bullshit it's shit
Yeah, it's shit because of that. 90%+ of everything is character-driven, which could make a good drama or something but always a terrible story.
Event-driven story is what actually could've been good, especially with something like Grail War.

>became interested in Fate, solely because of "kewl holy grail war"
>it's just another harem shit with "perfect, OP, but mentally troubled shcooler" protagonist
SN is shit.

This except
>(even though Sakura is worst girl)
kys

>There are people who believe that F/SN is a harem
Imagine being this stupid.

>shirou
>perfect

Honestly it's why I liked Tsukihime better. At least it owned up to that shit.

He is "flawed", but only in self-hurtful way.
For a "society" around him he is perfect.

Zerofags are retarded. More news at 11.

Nice meme, vain faggot, but unfortunately, you're wrong. Events are created by characters. The most complex event-driven stories are those in which things don't happen at the will of the author, but because the characters made them. The more complex the characters, the more complex the events, and the two resonate with each other. The Fate/Zero LN vaguely fit this bill before half the characters got their backstories cut out and everything that informed their behavior for the anime. Since you're incapable of distinguishing correctly and have no imagination for yourself, I recommend Sword Art Online for your chuuni Yuki Kajiura fix and the Tsukihime anime for your flagrant misinterpretation and cut content fix.

>dies in 38 of the 46 endings
>constantly gets his ass kicked and needs to be saved by others
>every victory he has is through cooperation with someone else combined with using his opponents ideals as leverage against them
>gets taken advantage of for his kindness by basically everyone around him
>driven to being a glorified ISIS-janitor in at least 3 of the remaining endings
vs. Kerry's bank account.

Oh yeah, people fighting each other, so cool, so mature.

It literally was Rin who caused Shirou to get killed by Lancer in the first place by examining the school and running into Lancer. There's also an obvious difference between what someone who's been raised as a prestigious inheritor of great magic and someone who had her potential squandered to become a human experiment can do, and yet Sakura keeps trying to get things done on her own in order to stop Shirou from losing his life for her sake.

E-Everyone stop fighting!

This, but unironically.
That's what I came for in a story about Grail War.

This.
Tsukihime is awesome, because everything is important and it is exactly what it promises to be.

What about Sacchin?

Will never get a route.

>For a "society" around him he is perfect.
How? Because he knows how to cook, isn't a lazy piece of shit, and a decent handyman?

Oh, wait a minute, this is Sup Forums. I forgot some here believe any kind of desirable traits are unattainable ideals. Silly me.

Even Sieg is better than Shirou.

>>"Whenever she called me nee-san I really wanted to kill her."

That's just her magus side showing. Rin suffers from split personality disorder where she changes from Rin the girl and Rin the Mage.

>
It literally was Rin who caused Shirou to get killed by Lancer
Wrong.

Go back to your Dragonball Super threads if that's all you care about then.

>self-sacrificial
>a "hero of justice" that wants to save everyone

Why is she so pure?

>ATATATATA
>everyone is just throwing beam at each other and autistically scream until one loses
>most fights are "I will prove I'm the best!" instead of actual death-fights
>most opponents became friends in the end
Nope, it's shit.
I wanted a proper serious fights with usage of different magic and abilities of legendary heroes. With proper story that's actually centered around Holy Grail.
Fate characters have a lot of potential in that regard, sadly it all became a "character-driven" story in the end, where event itself doesn't really matter.

Because she is traumatized by her past.
Only damaged girls can be truly pure, serious and loving.

You really don't understand what character-driven vs. plot-driven actually means do you?

Except no one actually wants that. Everyone he helps for free either expresses concern for his lack of self-interest or shits on him for it.

Exactly as I said he is a perfect "hero", flawed only in self-harmful way.

Knowing how to cook is a basic stuff and household appliances is nothing all that complicated.
His "perfectioness" comes form the fact that he basically has a personality of a Jesus.

The same reason Jojofags don't respect animeonlies. Or why people always insist to start with DB instead of DBZ.

>seigi no mikata: i'm going to destroy myself if it means making everyone happy! jesus powers activate!!!!
>the world: dude, fuck off, that doesn't work
>terrorists: i also still hate that other guy, so i'm going to go shoot him now
>perfect "hero"
Your standards of being perfect for a society are kind of fucked, goalposts-kun.

>DB
OPTIONAL
COMEDY
PREQUEL

>perfect for a society
Well, my phrasement is fucked up, I agree, which is why I put it into brackets.
Don't act like you haven't understood what I mean.

>I missed the entire point of Archer's character, UBW, HF, and pretty much FSN as a whole
He's nothing like Jesus. He aspires to that because he thinks it will make him happy, which is a completely selfish reason, only to realize that it just makes things terrible for him.

Reason for constantly Jesus'ing himself is not all that important.
I understand the point of Archer and stuff, but it's a very basic thing to focus on it so much, while making a war just a background.

What's the difference? Explain

It's funny because FSN was my first experience getting into the Fate franchise (the VN, not the Deen anime) but I always thought that Archer's premise is so ridiculously overblown in that it would have been better suited for some other sequel story. I didn't think of it much back then but in hindsight, it's probably why I appreciate FZ for even existing since it essentially "adds" onto the universe by way of chronology.

>making a war just a background
It's fourteen dudes, and most of them remain relevant throughout the whole story. Just because it's not a formulaic round robin or something doesn't detract from that. Yes, the central protagonist is the most important character, literally just like Kiritsugu was.

Character-driven stories unfold based on the volition of individuals and the things that compose them as such. Backstories are an easy way of explaining what those things are, but narration can do just as well with less interruption to the narrative flow. Plot-driven stories are focused on having a particular sequence of events, probably involving devices like plot twists and complex mechanics. Characters in them tend to be archetypal or react situationally because the writers don't realize that more complex characters lead to a more elaborate plot. Fate/Zero is strongly character-driven because the events that unfold are based on the ways the character's conflicting personalities and ideals interact. Think about how Kerry played Fastwheels in their battle in the Einzbern mansion, for example, or everything Kotomine did in the latter half and everyone it involved. Gilgamesh had similar depth, but cutting out every slight hint of his backstory in the anime also cut out every motivation. As a result, he begins to more closely resemble a marionette driving the plot according to the author's whims than an established character.

One of my favorite examples of this in FSN is actually NLBW because of how clean it is. In a plot-driven story, Shirou would have simply defeated Berserker because he had Archer's arm, making him stronger and Berserker had God Hand stripped away, making him weaker. These things are symbolic of what challenges these characters are facing, however, that wasn't enough. Shirou won because Berserker hesitated after noticing Ilya, who climbed out of the ditch she was safe in specifically because of her attachment to Berserker.

If I'm understanding correctly, F/SN would both be a character and plot driven story, right?

>Murrikans truly believe this

>everyone I don't agree with is murrican