When did Dragon Ball Z turn to complete shit?

I'd argue the Ginyu Force being killed off was the start of it's downfall with the Buu Saga being the point where it was nearly unwatchable.

Even GT was better than Buu Saga

What exactly was "wrong" with the Buu saga?

Buu was a shit villain, Vegeta blowing himself up was pointless since he came back not long after, most of the new characters were trash too.

>Even GT was better than Buu Saga

No.

What was actually wrong with GT apart from being non canon and everyone being old and useless?

Started turning to complete shit when the Buu saga begins. Logical conclusion would've been to end it after Cell.

Goku dies and Gohan was passed the torch and becomes the new hero. Vegeta vowing to never fight again, Trunks timeline is saved, etc. Cell was also the best villain to end the series with. Him being a product of everybody's DNA and becoming the "perfect" being because of it, and being the last remnants of the lost Red Ribbon Army from original DB.

Then comes the Buu saga, Goku's death becomes utterly worthless as he saves the day by killing Buu. Gohan gets a giant buildup just to get his ass handed to him. SSJ3 is the most useless transformation ever. Trunks & Goten becoming SSJ for no reason. Buu is the shittiest villain imaginable. Etc etc, I could go on and on but you get the point.

tl;dr buu saga is completely pointless and should've ended at cell

the fight scenes were shit, everyone but Goku was useless and Goku was stupid and they reverted character development

Z turned to shit when Tien was introduced in DB.

Even myself being nostalgic to GT, it has many flaws that overweights the positives. It should be called Goku Time.

The Buu Saga is easily the best part of Z though.
Since King Piccolo, all the villains had been "cunning evil sadistic guy that wants to take over the world/galaxy", Buu was a big breath of fresh air. The whole saga was like early dragonball, actually having humor and all, even during the fights.

Somewhere during Z. Can´t tell you when exactly. DB was through and through good though.

Dragon Ball Z is inherently flawed due to how fights boil down to power levels, power ups, and beams. This is exasperated with Cell and Buu due to needing to beam them to death, but at least Cell had a cool design and a personality to fall back on.

This is also why super is pure garbage. It's distilled Dragon Ball into a parody of itself.
>Woah he's strong, guess I'll have to get serious
>Well if you're going to get serious so will I
>repeat 3 times or so with intermittent atatatas
>Beam clash
>AAAAAA
>AAAAAAAAA
>Explosion

Gohan should've had his own season of doing Saiyaman shit.

Battle of the Gods had some pretty good fighting melee choreography, even after Goku and Beerus started to use beams. I was impressed because I thought they had forgotten how to do actual fighting.

Don't know about Super though, you're probably right.

At least Buu Saga is better than all of dragon ball super. People need to stop watching Super it's fucking bad it's about time for dragon ball to rest in peace.

Z had a lot of great fights but it's pacing was fucked up right off the bat.
Goku dies and is on spirit road and king Ki's planet for a long ass time. Namic takes for fucking ever for things to happen, Cell games drag the fuck on. DBZ was easily twice as many episodes as it should have been. The pacing in DB was way better, and had better pay off most of the time.
That said, Piccalo vs 17, Goku vs Cell, Majin Vageta vs Goku are all fucking fantastic.

t. Krillcuck
Tien held his own against Drum for several minutes, and even caused him some damage (who was stronger than Tambourine), while as poor Krillin died while "fighting" Tambourine, after receiving a simple kick to the forehead.

The Buu arc is a bit wonky but it's significantly better than most of the Android stuff, in my opinion.

Android arc got boring as soon as Cell stopped being a horror movie villain.

Tien was helping against villains even into the Buu Saga.

>vegeta vowing to never fight again
???

Read the manga.

I agree with you, but I was speaking purely about the anime. DB manga on the other hand is a fun read all the way though. DB Super is even not to bad of a read where the anime is a train wreck.

That's movie only.

>DB manga on the other hand is a fun read all the way though. DB Super is even not to bad of a read where the anime is a train wreck.
Same here. I had a lot of fun watching DBZ when I was younger but I'd never rewatch it nowadays.
Super anime is just dog shit, the only reason I even watched the previous arc was because it had Trunks
But I'm always rereading chapters from the manga (both the original and Super)

Dragon ball turned to shit when it became Z

The pacing was horrible.

How do you feel about all the movies? I'm gonna watch all of them.

Android saga was kinda boring and everything felt so melodramatic. Cell saga was better but it's not my favorite, I always enjoyed the Buu saga because it was fun and had some of the most iconic moments in the show's history.

GT is fucking gay

Tenshinhan is the most overlooked fighter in the show's history.

I could have seen Buu been a villian around the fortune teller baba saga

Buu's better than Cell and his shitty tournament.

This.
Cell was not interesting because all his moves were copied and his personality wasn't special either. Cell only got as far as he did because every main character went full retard (Goku not using the medicine, Gohan letting Cell explode, Krillin not killing 18, Vegeta letting Cell reach perfect, etc)

Yup, everything in the Cell saga after Piccolo and 17 began fighting was just everyone lining up to get fucked or do something stupid for Cell

>bad pacing
>messy plot
>too many dues ex machinas
>shit villain compared to Cell/Frieza
>introduce Gotenks only to get sidelined
>Gohan gets sidelined after getting new power

One of the worst things they did here was toy with the status quo, yank the readers/viewers chains. They made it out like Goku was never gonna come back ever again, that Gohan was gonna be the big hero, getting a fancy new power boost to kill Evil Buu. And then they break their world's own laws by having Goku come back to life long after his death should've been permanent via Deux Ex Machina!

One of the only positive things the saga did was the development Mr. Satan received, even though what he did to help Gohan back in the Cell Games already humanized him, they built on that more and more to the point where he really SHOULD'VE been the hero here. Plus they relied too much on the Diablous Ex Machina, what with Evil Buu, then Super Buu then Kid Buu. It would've been great had Vegeta successfully killed Fat Buu, or even have Mr. Satan befriend him to end the series.

teen gohan was the best thing to ever happen to the series and they flub it. he has 1 arc then went to shit.

>More characters took a backseat, like Piccolo. Even Krillin
>Buu having the ultimate identity crisis full of more deus ex machinas than the entire series up until that point.
>Goku vs Vegeta part 2 felt rushed and a cheap excuse to get them to fight again.
>Characters acting even more dumb than usual.
>Unecessary transformations like SSJ3, I don't remember it accomplishing anything other than wasting Goku's remaining time on earth.
>too much focus on Mr. Satan and his character development from a piece of shit comic relief to a half respectable human being. It came at the cost of other characters being pushed back.
>There was no point to Gotenks other than being a goofball, and I rather liked his character but after see their moms die along with all their friends, you'd think they take the battle more seriously. Also, Goten and Trunks aside from Buu are the main sources of comedy, but they have nearly no character and could have easily been replaced by someone else.
>Gohan coming back with the ultimate power just to get his ass kicked sucked as well. I also didn't like having Goku finishing off the main villain yet again. If they had more time in developing Vegeta during the arc, I'd have been fine with even him killing Fat Buu.

cell games saga > saiyan saga > frieza saga > namek saga trunks saga > imperfect cell saga > android saga > great saiyaman saga > Majin buu saga > kid buu saga > captain ginyu saga > perfect cell saga > fusion saga > babidi saga > world tournament saga > garlic jr saga

>Namic
>Piccalo
>Vageta

Search of the Dragon Balls - 8/10
21st Tenkaichi - 8/10
Red Ribbon - 9/10
22nd Tenkaichi - 8/10
Piccolo Daimao - 9/10
23rd Tenkaichi - 10/10
Saiyans - 10/10
Namek - 10/10
Androids - 7/10
Buu - 6/10

Z was always shit.
Dragon Ball was a masterpiece.

I wish the DB would've just become a series of loosely connected films. It's hard to be invested when they're contriving tournaments and always trying to pop out a deuce.

The simple fact that Dragon Ball Z aired in North American and Europe with the predecessor being almost completely ignored, is the definite main reason why most english fans don't really care about characters like Tien. But then again, the main reason people like DBZ Krillin so much is because he was the only human alive during the Freeza arc, people only like DBZ Roshi because he is a huge pervert, and most people only like Yamcha because he sucked so much that he became a living meme.

In Europe, at least in Southern Europe, we saw Dragon Ball before DBZ, the same in Latin America

frieza and his family were awesome you have to admit that

When you started watching anime
If you want the real answer, it's when the manga started the saiyan saga

>Tenshinhan was gifted according to Roshi, could learn techniques(like Kamehameha) just by looking once thanks to his 3rd which also helped to see things better than usual. Knew more techniques than usual thanks to Crane school teaching things(Roshi didnt even taught the Kamehameha, every of his students learned by watching either Roshi blow a castle, or Goku using it)
>Krillin was gift, but behind Goku
>Yamcha had talent, but his ego would fuck him up
>Yajirobe was a monster like Goku, but never gave fucks about fighting. only wanted to eat, chill and not get into crazy shit

So yeah. "Z" just fucked the humans big time. And around Cell Saga even Piccolo was fucked after his fight against 17 when he was supposed to be around saiyans level

This. Tournaments were hype as fuck, but got really popular around King Piccolo saga when characters started to die and people started thinking "wait? isnt this a kids show?" and then adults started watching that. Often reruns made people see how DB had pervert moments and how the fuck was that aired in the morning (Bulma's shower scene)

>I'd argue the Ginyu Force being killed off was the start of it's downfall
would bringing them back have saved it?

Yes.

First 3 suck
Lord Slug is okay
Coolers Revenge is the best one
Second Cooler film is meh
Android 13 is good
Broly 1 is sort of good
Bojack is shit
Broly 2 is decent
Broly 3 is shit
Fusion Reborn is good
Wrath of the Dragon is terrible

Battle of Gods and Resurrection of F are decent but better in Super.

Why did Funi try and split Z into all these mini sagas when it's just 4 big long ones

long af and relied way too heavily on bringing characters back from the dead. also the whole, villain gets disintegrated but can reform was literally the point of cell

>Likes the Ginyu Force who are silly
>Hates the Buu arc which is return to Dragon Ball's roots of silliness after three arcs that have mostly been ultra serious.
Can you say hypocrite?

I'd say when they introduced Super Saiyan. I was perfectly fine with Goku beating Freeza using a Genki Dama.

It wen to shit in DB when Bulma was introduced

cell was supposed to only not die if his head wasn't completely destroyed, but toriyama forgot about that little detail and the anime had to correct it to being if any cell of him is left he can regenerate.

Android/Cell saga
Basically everything past Freeza but Cell is the worst one

The DBZ movies each deliver an essential DBZ experience in about an hour and are good marathon material. Just skip the Broly sequels and you're good.

its the easy answer but its still true, it went to shit as soon as Namek was over.

No, read the manga you fucking newfags

Honestly Goku should have died against Freiza, with super sayian remaining a Goku only power up, Gohan becomes the MC and without super sayain the androids can be much weaker while still posing a massive threat and power levels never escalate out of control.