God gives humans the ability to be good or bad

>God gives humans the ability to be good or bad
>They choose bad
>This is somehow God's fault
>Sup Forums will defend this
Yeah sure, it's God's fault that Satan CHOSE to destroy humanity. Or humans CHOOSING to kill and hunt each other. Damn you free will.

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what about the tons and tons of humans killed by the demons and not by each other?

Then why give them the option if you don't like the outcome?

Because autism.

God didn't even make humans in this universe.

The bad is beautified by satan. The good is surrounded by difficulty and hardship.

Free will is a joke. Obey me or perish. What a good choice. A tyrant deserves to be dethroned.

This is why God is a hypocrite. If you don't want people to be evil, don't give them free will in the first place. If you want to give people free will, then you should be prepared for inevitable outcome where they make choices you don't like. As the parent, God should love all his children, not just the ones who please him. He doesn't get a free pass just because he is god.

Also, if he really wanted to support humanity, he would have slapped them down on a planet not already infested with demons. It's a bit like tossing a bunch of a poisonous insects into a pot and letting them eat each other until only the strongest is left alive.

>build a computer program
>It has a 50/50 chance of breaking
>Blame the program for breaking

Puppets are boring if you're the only one in the room, user.

Where did you get any of this shit from? The only time God is ever even mentioned is when Satan talks about him killing the demons. No one ever blames God for what the humans do or anything like that. Why are you stretching to be offended? Retard

God would've saved them in the end. There's a reason why he stopped the nuke from going off in Moscow. Humans don't deserve to be saved.

Manufacturer produces computer.
Computer rarely works as intended.
Manufacturer tries to fix it.
Computer still doesn't work properly.
Manufacturer scraps malfunctioning computer and starts over.
Who is in the wrong?

Why would that be God's fault?

>This is why God is a hypocrite.
Hypocrite would be not giving them free will or the option to do so but still claiming it's their fault when they fuck up.

> If you don't want people to be evil, don't give them free will in the first place
What kind of moronic backwards ass logic is that? "Hey, it's not MY fault I killed everyone, the option was there, why are you so pissy about it? Clearly if you didn't want me to kill someone I never should have had the free will to act on my own so either lock us up and force us all to follow the will of one guy or don't complain when I rape and slaughter everyone!"

>f you want to give people free will, then you should be prepared for inevitable outcome where they make choices you don't like.
Like making hell? Seems like he's ready in case they misuse free will to shoot someone. You know, like we do.

> As the parent, God should love all his children, not just the ones who please him.
Parents shouldn't let their kids who murder people run around freely, that's shitty parenting.

In that case no one's. It's not the computer 's fault it doesn't work properly, but it's not wrong to scrap a computer and start over.

Japs sure love this theme.

People are claiming God is the bad guy of the whole story because it is kind of painted that way in the manga at least, but not really as overt in the anime , if at all.

Do make kids who can murder

Well if you insist

What's the point of hell if you only go there AFTER you die? If God threw people into hell right after they committed a sin, THEN it would make sense. Society would evolve in a manner where people still have free will, while evil people are punished and isolated from the good.

God is a poor administrator, that's the root of the problem.

Sup Forums is a hive of satanism, whether they realize it or not. They reject the good and try to substitute their own, making themselves miserable in the process.

Repent, and submit to the Vicar of Christ on Earth, Sup Forums. Jesus is calling you.

Well I'll be waiting.

Yeah but he's using a gay iPhone. Pass.

I just dislike God for bullying Satan because I think he's cute.

Retarded Americans and their completely retarded misunderstanding of Bible.
Humans do not actually possess true free will, God can instill evil into peoples hearts like he did in Egypt and God knows all outcomes already.
Even though consciously we should try to be good, God already knows who will achieve Theosis and join God and who will experience eternal torment.
This isn't about individual humans, it's about humanity being restored to it's original state with addition of knowledge, thus humanity that will be with God will truly be like Gods image and achieve Theosis.

It's a shame fire and brimstone hell got that popular.

>What's the point of hell if you only go there AFTER you die?
"What's the point of going to prison only AFTER you kill someone"

>If God threw people into hell right after they committed a sin, THEN it would make sense.
You can repent and not go to hell. He literally gave you a get out of free card but the cost of spending the rest of your life making up for the sin you've committed is too much. You have the option right until you die, and only when your body is gone does he come in at all. It doesn't make sense for an instant hell because there's still no free will and there's no chance at redemption.

>Society would evolve in a manner where people still have free will, while evil people are punished and isolated from the good.
Instantly by an all overseeing being who literally will kill them, because obviously you'd die if he ripped your soul out, the moment you did something evil. That's not free will, that's acting exactly as he wants, nothing else.

This. People are afraid to try, and it hurts.

Gnostics get out.

The fire and the brimstone won't be the worst part of hell, it would be the complete separation from God, and thus, complete seperation from all good things in the world.

God does not administrate heaven or hell, not at one point in bible is this ever implied.
The only references to anything similar to physical heaven or hell come from the lake of fire and the new city of Jerusalem, both of which have to do with Revelations and things that are yet to come. Additionally it is even debatable if it's truly an apocalyptic revelation.
All who believe in Christ and are pure of soul are close to God and at their death their souls will be even closer to him, presence of God is what equates to heaven and after time once the soul sheds it's sins it achieves Theosis and unity in God.
Hell is presence of God felt after you've rejected him, eternal torment knowing that you may never be one with God because of your own doing.
Retarded descriptions of circles of hell and seven skies and shit like that comes from Desert and European paganism mixed together with popular literature like Divine Comedy.
You have to understand that it is not even entirely clear if Satan and Lucifer are the same being indeed and there is scholarly debate about that to this day.

I am not Gnostic, I am Orthodox Christian.
Everyone else is a heretic and a fucking dirty pagan, constantly mixing retarded shit from European mythology into Christianity.

You really need to read the Bible because you have no idea what you're talking about at all.

See, that's what I meant. Fire and brimstone is for the Devil. Separation was for the humans.

>Denies the afterlife.
5 shekels have been deposited to your account.

No, afterlife exists but it is not some retarded fucking Catholic cuck fucking fairy tale bullshit cave with 9 levels of bullshit.
God and human must achieve Synergia through life, a communion in which the will of God and the will of a man become one, through this Synergia a man can achieve Theosis once he dies.
You have your free will, and the purpose of your free will is to intertwine it with the will of God so that you can be like him and join God through God in Theosis.

Please stop posting. Not once in the Bible has Satan ever been named other than that he is the ultimate slanderer and deceiver. Satan's punishment is that no one will know who he was before. Whatever you know is absolute fan fiction.

All protestants are heretics.
Do you have zero reading comprehension? I told you right there in that post that there is a reason why people are still debating Lucifer bullshit, because at no point has Lucifer, a name connected to a very missunderstood passage, been connected to Satan in the bible itself. Most of the notions of the devil are entirely fan fiction and paganism in all denominations of Christianity.
In fact I would say that a Christian should not care about the Devil in the first place, trying to figure out or care about how that shit works is witchcraft and a sin.

>God gives humans the ability to be bad
>somehow not God's fault
>
I fucking hate you brainlets so fucking much.
I mean, how can you even be fucking serious? I'm honest tired of explaining such simple science with you fucking subhuman brainlets
>humans have the impulses and desires to do evil by design, as a means to survive
>primitive and animalistic brains force people to do wrong
>hurr it's all your fault for choosing evil I only gave you free will
The very concept of evil did not have to exist in the first place. Humans do evil because they're designed to do so and it has nothing to do with the pseudoscience "free will" meme because the human mind is not a magic box that somehow does anything but following instincts.
Kill yourself brainlet.

come to think of it, Heaven and Hell don't exist till Judgement Day anyway. Feel free to sleep.

Surely it's the same bible god if it's called "god", right people?

Freedom doesn't exist.

Human mind is the Icon of God.
People pretend that God does not act or think like humans, but humans are created in the image of God.
Morality and concept of Good and Evil exist because God knew of them and defined them, similarly Good and Evil exists for humans because our mind is created in the image of God.
Concept of Good and Evil exists because it exists in the mind of God and Humans.

>religion thread
>retards going hurrrrrr science
Big category error, brainlets. Pick up a book, will ya?

Japanese people don't understand theology because their religion is ridiculous paganism
youtube.com/watch?v=OuIMOCUhmfI

That is why Japanese are overwhelmingly Atheist with some retarded superstitions of top, because their faith is weak and shit.

Go Nagai is fedora-wearing gnostic, just like Miura. Damn these heretics.

Devilman would have been way better if ending wasn't so predictable. Like instead they found a way to kill Lucifer.

hhaha true. It's definitely 'god''s fault in the manga, but I could still see people wanting to defend that god too. But I figured this would all devolve into religious debate at some point.

Killing Lucifer would have been against the whole point of the show. You know that 'learning to love' thing.

CHRISTIANITY IS STUPID

>talk shit about Catholicism while knowing nothing about it
Same ol' Orthodox

>The very concept of evil did not have to exist in the first place.
>Kill yourself brainlet.
Yeah, that omniscient, eternal being; what a fucking brainlet. If only he had created you first, so you could tell him he doesn't need to follow decisions born of omniscience, using the human concept of and capacity for logic he gave you. So much more reasonable. You could even shoot another cute anime girl reaction image his way, to make your opinion extra valid.

>Believing that there is a third, never before mentioned plane called Purgatory where your sins are burned away and that Holy Spirit derives from both the Father and the Son and not the father alone
That would be enough to dismiss your heresy, but I don't need to dismiss shit, your corrupt pedophilia ridden satanist church ruled by a faggot speaks for itself.

whoever's going to get fired for that shitshow

Shinto is delicious, there are not much true neutral entities in more complicated systems. Once ded I'd haunt a stone near a crossroad to gawk at people and things passing by.

>people that have not read any theology book in their lives claiming to have BTFO religion in this thread with Neil deGrasse Tyson-tier logic
Actually, why are we even having a religion thread on the goddamned anime board

Mutaizille Islam is the way brother

"While the Eastern Orthodox Church rejects the term "purgatory", it acknowledges an intermediate state after death."
Not only do you know nothing about Catholicism, and try to bring petty insults to the discussion, but you also don't know anything about Orthodoxy. What you complain about is Pop-Christianity, and it exists in all denominations. What you've said about Heaven and Hell is pretty standard, there are woke boys in both Catholicism and Orthodoxy, definitely not in Protestantism though.

>he didn't see a single "shonenshit" bible thread
they are repetitive but always glorious

It can be fun. Lets watch the shitshow with some popcorn and add some spice here and there.

Don't be a cunt to others and you are alright.
Easy.

If God was real, he'd have made a world where him existing makes any sense instead of people having to make shit up to justify him

>Humans do evil because they're designed to do
Actually no, humans have a choice. To fight with evil within or surrender it.

This is not the case at all
>Create being in your own image with potential to be like you
>Put them in a chill place and place a tree of knowledge there that they will eat eventually and become truly like you, having both purity, maturity and knowledge in your image
>They eat it too soon, thus they lose their purity and are not mature enough
>Now they have to go the long way to restore their purity and they still need to gain maturity to be like you
The true question for Christianity is...why didn't God create Adam and Eve perfect from the start? And I am not asking why he gave them free will or something, I actually mean that it's pretty clear that he intended humans to be super cool but instead of creating super cool humans from the get go he created extra steps.
Since he is omnipotent it would make no difference for him to remove these extra steps and the creature he would create would still have free will, the issue of free will comes into play only because they were created imperfect and had to go through an extra step to reach perfection.
Basically what I am saying is that creating the tree of knowledge instead of creating humans with purity, maturity and endless knowledge from the start does not serve any function other than to test people, like a game.
There is no morality here, just two simple tests
>Will the humans eat the fruit or wait? If they eat it they get fucked, if they wait they will get rewarded.
And test B
>If they get fucked, will they follow my teachings to get unfucked? If so they will be rewarded if not they will be double fucked.
This does not serve any function other than to act like a game for God. Once you read deeper into this you will understand that there is no other answer other than that God is either
>Evil
or
>Chaotic Neutral guy that likes to play around and test shit.

>I-I have 0 arguments but I feel so insecure I must insult him to feel better
>hurr god to smart 4 humans we just cant understand
>literal slave morality
Do you even realize how pathetic you sound?
Not that it matters. Awaits you only despair in the end, brainlet.

No, I studied at a theological school. There is no purgatory in Orthodox Christianity, Orthodoxy tries not to concern itself regarding how the soul reaches state of Theosis if the soul did not reach the communion with God while it was in a body.
What matters is that Purgatory as a separate plane is not mentioned anywhere at any point especially in detail that Catholics describe it in.
The simply and non-arrogant answer is what Orthodox Church chooses, we simply do not know how soul purifies itself after death before Theosis because there isn't enough information provided regarding said state.

>calls people brainlets
>doesn't know that altruism is good for inclusive fitness
If you're gonna larp as science man at least get the basics down

>god lets bad things happen so god is bad
Most juvenile logic ever. What's the point of living when there are no actual choices? The point of free will from a religious perspective is to prove yourself as a decent person on your own merits. If God made everyone good, then we'd all be mindless slaves. And I don't think a "good" God would want that.

Or there could have been a ton of different options of how in particular you wanted to be good, and none bad

>altruism
>inclusive fitness
Are you seriously now trying to talk about how religion is good for society?
Oh God deliver me from this world
>god is good
>therefore god is a mindless slave
Why are religious people like this?

Do you realize that notions such as
>whats the point of life
and
>what is good and evil
should be created by God? What I am saying is that God could have created a universe entirely different from this one built on completely different logic.
The very structure of this universe and it's metaphysics and morals are entirely created by God, thus all of the bad things are part of his design.
Which means that he is not perfectly good and is willing to create suffering.

Not my fault christian philosophers haven't come up with a single convincing theodicy in hundreds of years. They haven't even solved the omnipotence paradox yet (and no, "fuck logic" doesn't count). Maybe they should just drop the concept of God as a being that is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent all at once. Doesn't take a genius to realize those three don't mix very well.

You should define what free will is first. I haven't heard a definition that actually makes sense yet.

>There is no purgatory in Orthodox Christianity
My quote literally says that. But it is a fact that the Orthodox Church believes that there is an intermediate state which allows for the concept of praying for the souls of the dead.
You state
>humans have the impulses and desires to do evil by design, as a means to survive
But this is a very rudimentary understanding of evolution, hence you are larping as science man despite not understanding basic concepts. The fact is that it's the moral behaviour (stuff that's usually describes by all world religions as virtuous) that is optimal for inclusive fitness.

>He gives them the choice to be good or bad
>A lot of them choose bad
>Some choose good
>He gives blessings to the one who choose good, and lets the ones who choose bad fall to their own choices and fall to ruin.
>The entire point is that you had the choice, so that the ones who chose good by their own volition would be the most genuine and strong of will, since they chose the right thing even when they didn't have to.
>"REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE THAT"S BAD, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BLESS US AND GIVE US POWER NO MATTER WHAT. THIS IS YOUR FAULT!! I WANT TO DESTROY PEOPLE, CHEAT, STEAL, AND BREAK FURNITURE ALL DAY AND STILL BE BLESSED FOR IT"

pretty dumb argument. Yeah people were given a choice of good and evil, this is so that the ones who chose good even though it wasn't mandatory were proven truly great, and so they would be forged by fire.

You don't go against temptation if there's no temptation in the first place because you can't make a wrong choice. Humans are great because they can go against temptation, because there is a wrong choice. And angels have free will as well or else Satan couldn't have rebelled. The idea that god wants robots with no will is a retarded theory that got mixed in over generations that has no basis. God wants people who have a will of their own, but have forged their will and chose the correct choices in life even when it was hard.

For the people that choose other things in life, he doesn't punish them, he just doesn't bring them to his side. Hell is just an absence of god, its where you end up falling if you don't go with him. God didn't make hell for humans at all, he made it for the demons that rebelled against him, it had nothing to do with humans. Humans just end up there if they turn away from god, but not because he put them there, but because that's the only other place to fall if you chose to go away from him.

>humans have the impulses and desires to do evil by design, as a means to survive
>no, moral behaviour is optimal for inclusive fitness
>therefore evolution is false
Truly defeated me. I don't want to talk anymore.

Why do you think I don't believe in evolution? It's literally part of Catholic doctrine at this point.

It's God's fault for granting humans the choice and then throwing a bitch fit like a pedantic child when we choose bad instead of good. Fuck God.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil#Christianity

I don't think you realize what omnipotence is.
God can do literally anything, including confliction things, correct?
So he should be able to just create humans that feel like they've been forged by fire and are already good.
It would be in no way less genuine than what we go now.
Again, God is OMNIPOTENT, his choices do not have cause and effect the same way ours do. Since he is omnipotent he would be the only being that takes 100% responsibility for whatever he does, because it is 100% up to him to determine how his actions will unfold across all of existence.

Let's accept "muh free will" as an excuse (we shouldn't because the concept of free will is nebulous and nonsensical, but whatever), this still doesn't solve the problem of disasters and diseases that weren't caused by man. Nor does it explain why God doesn't just give us convincing evidence of his existence, like, right now.

So, your argument becomes
>moral behaviour is optimal for inclusive fitness
>therefore, humans DO NOT have the impulses and desires to do evil by design as a means to survive
Really refreshed my understanding of human intelligence. Okay now. There's really nothing left to say.

>>God gives humans the ability to be good or bad
Source?

evolution has nothing to do with being optimal for inclusive fitness, evolution is a statistical observation
it's a very blunt statement and a statistical fact and not an actual metaphysical mechanism of some sort, the statement being
>Creatures that survive, get to reproduce
That is as simple as it gets, thus creatures that are more likely to survive in their environment are more likely to reproduce
Luckily humans are super intelligent and cooperative enough to survive without having to act like retarded animals

And do you realize how that has nothing at all to do with any of my actual arguments?
I didn't state evolution only made people evil nor that altruism is not optimal for inclusive fitness, though the latter is debatable.
And your brain is a mess, you see that? You don't keep up with what you're trying to argue against.

>therefore, humans DO NOT have the impulses and desires to do evil by design as a means to surve
I mean yeah? It doesn't help them survive, we as humans can know which behaviour to avoid based on divine logic. The concept of evil only exists because of this capacity.

oh and
>primitive and animalistic brains force people to do wrong
Is so obviously absurd too, but I think you know that.

Because it doesn't. Free will shits on everything

Okay , lets present a scenario....

Do you think it would be morally correct if god made a mistake , so he killed a species on the planet to try and start over ? Would it be wrong if this angered someone and they tried to save this species ?

This the scenario that Devilman presents , at least in manga form, but I admit in the anime it is not quite the same.

I mean I know this is not really applicable to the Bible, because demons were not on the earth before humans, so it's not the same moral quandary. The scenario is kind of similar to the great flood.

Was the Great Flood really okay ? Would it be wrong to be angry at god for the Great Flood occurring??

Yes , I am trying to bring this back to the anime, haha.

Sorry my spacing is so shit, that's a bad habit. I could see you also arguing that God killing everyone in the flood was actually merciful. So god trying to wipe out demons in the Devilman story was merciful because their violent nature made it impossible for them to not suffer.

Regardless if god made a mistake or not, it's better for everyone to end it. I don't really agree with that, but I can understand the argument for that.

>Be god
>Know everything because god
>Give creatures the ability to pick right from wrong, even if I know what they're going to do anyway
>Place an arbitrary don't-touch-me-tree right in front of them and tell them not to touch it
>They touch the tree
>WTF HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN WHO COULD HAVE FORESEEN THIS

>God can instill evil into peoples hearts like he did in Egypt
He didn't instill evil into the Pharaoh. He just made him a little stubborn. It's not really meant to imply that the Pharaoh no longer had free will.

>What's the point of hell if you only go there AFTER you die
You never considered that people can change for the better?

So why do anything at all?
Further, why the fugg would Pharaoh mistrust anything God has done for/to him? Pharaoh probably thought God WANTED him to be stubborn if that's the case. Wouldn't you trust God?

Further, why is God so retarded in Exodus? Just fucking appear to Pharaoh. Stop using some guy with obvious political motivations against Pharaoh to be your messenger. What a retarded plan what the fuck

>Or there could have been a ton of different options of how in particular you wanted to be good, and none bad
How would you define what's bad then?

God is a retard. News at 11. There are burgers who seriously believe in the shit they spew. Go Nagai was right.

God likes to test people. I mean, why put a forbidden tree in the Garden of Eden in the first place? It's a test. God wants people to overcome temptation.

It's easy to be good when you have everything you want. Being able to overcome your base desires is the true mark of a faithful man.

>Test people when you know they're going to fail (because god) and then damn their ENTIRE race forever unless they grovel for your forgiveness

Nani the fuck is this

Never thought about it like that before.

Welcome to religion