Muh boys sick so I'm gonna waste my wish and soul (?) To heal him, instead of maybe, I don't know...

>muh boys sick so I'm gonna waste my wish and soul (?) To heal him, instead of maybe, I don't know. Wishing every injured or sick human being on the planet to be well and heal?! Maybe ask for everyone to be at peak physical condition, since my wish is paradoxically only has the value of the wish I'm gonna make (?) And my power is also directly tied to it why not ask for it?

Sayaka unironically ruined the entire show and caused the most FORCED conflict in the history of anime.

Also, WHAT DOES LOSING YOUR SOUL MEAN?!??!?! WHAT IS A SOUL IN THE MADOKA MAGICA UNIVERSE?!?!? WHY SHOULD YOU CARE IF YOU LOSE IT?!??!?! WHY IS THAT THE ONLY THING THAT THE GIRLS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT MORE THAN BECOMING SLAVES OR ASKING QUESTIONS. QB did nothing wrong

Dang nigga you need to calm the fuck down

Women, right?

It's more or less stated that girls can only make wishes based on the size of their latent potential. It's why Madoka was able to wish to literally become god, she had strings of fate attatched to her specifically over and over and over again that vastly increased her potential.

Sayaka did not have this because she was a regular girl.

Don't be rude to the baka, she's a good girl. Also best girl.

>Wishing every injured or sick human being on the planet to be well and heal?!
Doesn't QB say at one point that the extent of your wish is based on your karmic potential? I doubt a basic bitch like Sayaka had enough cosmic importance to pull off something like that.

Sayaka a fucking baka, at least she admitted that after having a fight with madoka

Did she do anything right?

Finally a man of intelligence and culture.

Teenage girls are stupid, wow.

Also , the girls wishes have to be within their magical potential, Sayaka was garbage tier.

all that and she got cucked

The character that Gen was heavily inspired from when he made her is shit. She never had a chance.

She's literally the only interesting character in the show and her arc was the only good one.

> the most FORCED conflict in the history of anime

Well someone's not watching or reading Citrus.

I also thought they have to actually want it. Like REALLY want it, since it uses their own power.
Madoka really wanted to save everyone, but Sayaka just wanted the D.

Sayaka is a good girl!

How dare these 14-year old girls not think rationally!

They don't really have to want it that much, I think in the earliest timeline Madoka just uses her wish to save a cat that got run over.

The way Kyuubey explains it it's basically just how strong each girls karmic power is or will be, and since Sayaka thought on the small scale, she could only have a small wish. Kind of like a self fulfilling prophecy type deal.

>It's based on the potential of the person
That's what I (OP) meant by the paradox bullshit, if you ask for a massive wish (like madoka) And it comes true then you had a lot of potential that came true, but equally madokas wish could have been denied, it's literally a fuck you, it works however we want bullshit, it's actually clever how lazy you can be as a writer if you use fate as a crutch for the majority of story beats.

in fact, 14-yo girls are so irrational, aliens use that irrationality to power their entire society.

shit show indeed

>How dare these 14-year old girls not think rationally!
Why don't all writers use 14 year old girls as all the characters in all media, it's so much easier to write when their actions don't have to make sense.

>the most FORCED conflict in the history of anime
Nothing is forced, that's what depression does to you, you don't think rationally, you devalue your own life and you think you're better off dead.

Madoka is a good girl who really, truly wants to save a cat/

Refer to just replace 14 year old girls with depressed people

> but equally madokas wish could have been denied

No it couldn't have, their karmic power more or less comes from how much they affect the world.

In Madoka's case at least literally almost anything she wished for would have come true because of what Homura had done, namely, made her the karmic centre of a huge number of different realities, with her wish being the critical factor in whether the timeline was reset or not.

Whether Sayaka becomes a witch or not ultimately doesn't really matter karmically since the only person whose really affected is Kyouko if she chooses to suicide bomb Sayaka, so comparatively, her wish is smaller too.

But it's also generally a self fulfilling prophecy, these ARE stupid teenage girls, and it makes sense in that case that, after Kyosuke having an emotional breakdown, Sayaka would hastily make her wish to heal him, just like how Mami hastily made her own wish to save her life rather than say, asking for everyone in the car to be revived, even if Mami's case was far more severe, it makes sense as to why they'd end up wishing shortsightedly.

> when their actions don't have to make sense.

They make sense, they're just, for the most part, impulsive and don't consider the 'whole' perspective, which, yeah, suits teenage girls pretty well.

KEK!

Would you kindly rewatch episode 11. It explains how and why Madoka obtained that much of potential. FFS, user. You're not 14 yo girl to be that stupid, are you?

What didn't make sense in Sayaka's story though:
>likes boy
>wants to make him happy then they'd be together
>finds out she sacrificed her humanity for his happiness so they can't be together
>he gets stolen and she doesn't have a reason to live as a zombie
>decides to do as much good as she can before dying
>overestimates her dedication for justice and realizes the world is not worth fighting for
>dies
Pretty straight forward if you ask me. If anything I'd question qb's reasoning when he decided to lie by omission about witches and soul gems while at the same time saying that he's unfamiliar with the concept of lying.

Oh I didn't and wouldn't have thought of that either OP
Kinda outside of my scope

I get how madoka got that much potential, it's still the most convoluted and contrived limitation on getting power ever conceived, and it in a loop solving and powering itself is a black plot hole that madoka fans can't seem to grasp.

That show's just lesbians raping each other over and over again.

You can easily explain that "plot hole" with not understanding the full extent of that universe's laws, it would have been a real plot hole if it contradicted any such laws, which it doesn't.

> The most convoluted

It's really not, just go re-watch the later episodes.

Sayaka is the only well written character in the show along with Kyouko.

Sayaka did everything right.

She even has her own website and had her own countdown.

>Sayaka Internet Defense Force here yet again

Huh? She has what now?
Countering the Sayaka Internet Shitting Force, at your service.

>Sayaka is the only well written character in the show
Yes
>along with Kyouko
No.

>while at the same time saying that he's unfamiliar with the concept of lying.
I don't think he said that. What he said is that he didn't understand what was considered bad about lying.

Why not?

Sayaka didn't have the potential to make such a grand wish, the show straight up indicated this. And why would she use it on something she doesn't really care about rather than something she actually does? She's not Light or Lelouch, there was no indication worldwide issues were a great concern of hers. Like other characters and most people in real life, she focused on the little thing that concerned her. "Cure world hunger" and such are just beauty pageant lines unless you're actually passionate about it. Sayaka didn't ruin anything, you niggas are just stunted.

QB explained the soul biz. The girls hate it because it's a mindfuck and totally different from what they had expected. QB targeted girls that are emotionally distressed and wanting and it's a boon they still had a naivety and innocence to them that lets them take the mahou shoujo shit at face value rather than being skeptical. Not that QB would ever discourage their fanciful views even if they asked pressing questions, because it's not retarded enough to potentially screw itself out of another sacrificial lamb.

Kyouko is edgy. The stupid kind of edgy.

Might have been lost in translation, but that's how I remember it, I rewatched the show not too long ago. Besides, why would a being that does not understand the concept of emotions need to lie?
Here come the anti-Sayaka fags larping as Sayaka fags in order to make us look more autistic.

Has a wish ever been denied though? Or are you fated to only wish for what you can wish for given your karmic power? It seems way too convenient that no one thought to wish for something really tremendous other than Madoka, who has the most karma. It's bad writing for sure.

Didn't Kyube say that she only got healing powers from her wish though?

> Has a wish ever been denied though?

We've never been in a situation wherein a girl wished outside of her means. Like I said, it's partly their karmic effect on the world, and partly their own perspective on wishes.

I wouldn't call it bad writing just because characters like Mami and Sayaka made shortsighted/selfish wishes during times of emotional turmoil, they're fucking teenage girls.

Because
>bigger wish bigger witch killing other people
Losing your soul means
>you become undead unless your head gets bitten off by some jack in the box

>Has a wish ever been denied though?
I always had the impression that you can basically wish for everything. Except maybe the destruction of the planet and shit. In the end it only matters how much shit is caused by it.
Obviously, you can wish to heal all the cripples but that means that at some point you will become the next Super Hitler

>you become undead unless your head gets bitten off by some jack in the box
I think magical girls could actually survive having their heads bitten off, Mami just had her soul jim on her head. I might be wrong, I don't know to which extent their wounds are still able to be healed.

>madoka S2 announced
>it's a sol series about mami-san in college

would you watch it?

You can probably survive even without a head. Mami died because Charlotte broke her broach-shaped soul gem in the process of eating her.

The whole point of her arc is that she wasted her wish.

Only if she's taking art classes and leaving in a dorm if other cute potato girls.

Yeah, just wanted to make a joke. Sorry

The last episodes refutes that. Madoka sacrificed herself to prove the girls' wishes aren't meaningless.

>It's more or less stated that girls can only make wishes based on the size of their latent potential
Quote me the episode number and the timestamp where Quebec straight up tells Sayaka "your wish can only be as big as your latent magical girl potential"

If you can wish for everything, then "karmic power" has nothing to do with it. If the bigger the wish means the bigger the witch, that'd be interesting and make sense, but I don't think that's what the show said.
>We've never been in a situation wherein a girl wished outside of her means. Like I said, it's partly their karmic effect on the world, and partly their own perspective on wishes.
I don't think there'd be a perfect line-up between karmic effect and wish perspective, and thus there should be cases where they would have to be denied their wish, in which case you can't wish for anything, which doesn't seem to be the case.
>I wouldn't call it bad writing just because characters like Mami and Sayaka made shortsighted/selfish wishes during times of emotional turmoil, they're fucking teenage girls.
Ostensibly, not everyone would make such wasteful wishes in the heat of the moment. Obviously mindfulness in wishes is mostly independent of karmic impact, unless you're including the wish itself, in which case that is circular logic and wouldn't work.

It's just bad writing with a lot of coincidence that didn't really fully explore the thought space it laid out.

If it's written by Urobuchi, yes. If it's him you know all too well it's not gonna be a simple SOL.
If if's not written by Urobuchi still yes,
I love SOL and I love MSMM

Right before Madoka made her wish, Quebey said something along the lines of, "You're magical potential is so huge I'm sure it will come true."

Not every media wants to tell that type of story

Oh so Sayaka can see into the future now? "Fuck, I'm not going to wish for this because some months later Quebec is going to tell Madonna this arbitrary wish rule therefore I'm going to make a shitty dumb wish because I already know things that haven't been made clear"?

> Which doesn't seem to be the case

There's only five of them user, that's hardly a respectable testing group to base that assumption on.

> Not everyone would make such wasteful wishes in the heat of the moment.

Five girls isn't 'everyone' now is it?

It WOULD have been nice if they'd explored that aspect further, but as it is, they only had 12 episodes to work with, as it is, leaving out 'potential' world building aspects still doesn't count as bad writing, it's just 'that wasn't the absolute focus of the show/we didn't have enough time to go through every possibility.'

Because not all writers are hacks.

She probably knew. This is more a weakness of the writing than here character

>If you can wish for everything, then "karmic power" has nothing to do with it. If the bigger the wish means the bigger the witch, that'd be interesting and make sense, but I don't think that's what the show said.
It's pretty weird. The karma thing makes a lot of sense but can't explain why Madoka could become a god with the string of fate shit. I think the despair-gain ratio always remains the same and so does the energy Cutebee can harvest. Maybe Madoka only became that powerful because the whole experience made her pretty mature for a 12 year old girl ?

>She probably knew
From where?
>his is more a weakness of the writing
I took that as the premise of this thread. The fact that Madoka is terribly written schlock.

Wishes are not almighty, they depend on the fate/karma of the person making the wish.
You can't just go full Madoka on your wish and become a law of nature, otherwise you'll end up with a half-assed parody of whatever you've wished for.

Probably true. The character is utilitarian; he cares about the greater good, not honesty.

>ryuki/madoka crossover series never
why live bros

> Maybe Madoka only became that powerful because the whole experience made her pretty mature

No, it's a combination of Homura making Madoka and her wish the critical centre-piece of a huge number of timelines, so, cumulatively, she had impossible levels of karmic importance, as well as Madoka making something of a paradox wish that also effects the witch that she herself turns into, thus basically resetting the universes rules all over again.

Sayaka was basically a SJW.

After watching the show completely I thought that the Homura timeline explanation was pretty stupid. What about the Madokas of the other timelines ? Maybe it's best to leave it at that.

>he cares about the greater good
He has no concept of good or evil, he's only interested in preserving the status quo of existence. He's an absolute neutral, but in terms of human standards he would be considered evil. Just like Madoka said, he does not care about human nature which makes him our enemy, strictly because humans are selfish at heart.
and stay there please.

Kyoko deserves someone better than Sayaka (worst girl)

> What about the Madoka's of other timelines?

If the timeline is singular? Then the events leading up to that point don't exist. If each timeline is unique ((most likely)) then in each other case the earth is likely destroyed and everyone dies, this gives Madoka the karmic effect, as she is basically responsible for whether a timeline survives or dies.

Overall it's a pretty simple explanation user.

(You)

>he's only interested in preserving the status quo of existence.
Which to him is good

Yes I agree, she deserved a better friend

Oh please, the cute baka completes her.

That's just the limitations of human language. Again there is no "good" or "bad" for him, it's just a matter of existing or not.

>Overall it's a pretty simple explanation user.
It's just "magic, I ain't gonna explain this shit". If the show says so that it's simply true but I still think that it's stupid.

>friend

"It's magic, I ain't gotta explain shit"

Considering the show has magic IN it, I don't see the problem, again, it's pretty simple and well established, so why is it stupid if it's magic in a magic show?

Homura keeps changing timelines every time Madoka makes a wish/dies, so 'karma' as Kyuubey explains it, gets stacked onto current Madoka since, whether she knows it or not, her wish is the single most important thing that will happen in that timeline and will decide whether everyone on earth dies or not.

Makes sense to me.

God I wish I was Kyouko

Cmon now, Kyouko clearly wanted just a friend, who has something in common. Nothing else, she was lonely

You actually make a really interesting point user. Do we see any old people in Puella Magi Madoka Magica?

Me on the right.

I will FUCK you

I just said that I thought the explanation was dumb not that it was wrong in the lore or whatever. Homura creating an allmighty god with her puny wish just because of some random encouter and her ultra homosexuality is just stupid to me.
I would have prefer an explanation that focuses on Madoka that gives a reason why she can ascend to godhood. It's just my personal opinion.

Please be gentle, it's my first time.

Use the webm.

> Homura creating an almighty god with her puny wish just because of some random encounter and her ultra homosexuality is just stupid to me.

If you don't like her character then that's up to you, but story wise it makes complete sense as to why Homura's wish did what it did. Sure Homura is an autist, but considering that Madoka saved her life and over the first timeline was nothing but kind towards her, it does make reasonable sense that Homura would use her wish to try and save her, and add to that that over every timeline Madoka is still endlessly kind and supportive to her and it would only make her feel even guiltier that she can't manage to save her.

Homura is obviously a social retard and outcast who had nothing to live for, so having someone who believes in her and cares for her is probably more than she ever really hoped for, and after a certain period of time she obviously went some kind of insane due to repeating such traumatic events over and over and constantly failing.

> I would prefer an explanation that focuses on Madoka

This explanation DOES focus primarily on Madoka, but Homura IS the secondary protagonist as it were, if it wasn't for the way Madoka was, then Homura wouldn't have kept trying over all this time to save her, and after all the time her karmic effect builds up to the point where Madoka can make any wish.

It's more than enough of a reason, to be perfectly honest.

What would Kyouko's father think of this?

desu what Sayaka SHOULD have wished for is for Kyosuke to fall in love with him, which is what she really wanted.

In fact, the same thing happened to the girl who would turn into Charlotte (the bitch that killed Mami): She didn't wish for what she really wanted and ended up wasting her wish on something mundane when she could have saved her mother.

Forced yuri.
Rebellion was a mistake.

*with HER! fuck

The thing is, we don't actually know what Sayaka's wish was.

In a series dealing with causality, fate, and space time, that's pretty fucking important.

Yes, but then Kyosuke would still have been unhappy about not being able to play the violin. Sayaka's plan was to make the impossible possible then confess, not make him fall for her then hope that the miracle would happen. The train of thought was pretty logical and if they didn't find out that soul jim turn to greef sid she probably would have succeeded.