All he wanted was to learn. Was that really so wrong?

All he wanted was to learn. Was that really so wrong?

Well, according to god, apparently.

God says in that one episode what was wrong with his method of learning. i cant remember what it was, but i do remember it was something like "just because you are knowledgeable, it doesnt mean you should treat others as lesser beings" / "be humble"

But God made him and put him in the world in the first place. Why put him down there on Earth only to make him fail and then punish him?

he never learned anything by his own means he just stole it

Why are humans allowed to do bad things if god created them? Everyone has free will, his will was to become a god at the cost of everyone's lives. And so he was punished for it.

because truth is an asshole

He looked down on everything and everyone he was taking from; in that he was always empty, only adding pieces of other things/places/people for his pursuit of trying become all knowing/all powerful.

Truth makes it clear with Ed and the one in the flask; you need to find truth within yourself and only then are you free from the punishment of opening the gate.

>free will

No its not wrong. He still needed to die, since he is not human and therefore could not sympathize with humans.

He wanted to learn and be free at the cost of everyone else. That's what was wrong.

But he could though. His greed empathized with humans plenty.

He was an aspect of truth at one point, so he sought individuality, he became an individual so then he sought godhood and truth. He failed to understand himself and so he cost countless human lives only to become what he once was. Meanwhile he only sought knowledge through the use of others rather than by his own efforts.

God didn't care that was he learning, he cared that Father/Dwarf was stealing souls and cheating his way to evolution.

I guess if you think sacrificing millions is worth knowing more, then it's fine.

Truth has literally only given people what they want.

You obviously didn't pay attention at all. The whole point is equivalent exchange. Want something? Better be willing to pay the price. He didn't want to pay the price so he stole from others and tries to brute force it.

No, his problem is that he wanted two mutually exclusive things. To be a part of god and to be a distinct entity.

Why did God make humans that will commit bad deeds? It's not like he doesn't now whether or not they will, since he's all knowing.

Every human has the option to do good or bad things. Just as how alchemists can choose to reshape the world around them, or pursue the resurrection of a dead person and be punished for their tresspasses. Truth even tells Ed that his choice to sacrifice his ability to do alchemy to save his brother is the correct answer, since he can just rely on his friends to do the things he can't, and he doesn't really need alchemy to live anyway.

I kind of wanted Ed to offer to shake Truth's hand in thanks for helping them to see, but oh well.

>or pursue the resurrection of a dead person and be punished for their tresspasses
>thinking it's suppose to be a punishment
Way to not pay attention.

Giving them some information from God's realm at the forced, ironic cost of some part of their body is indeed a punishment. Ed wanted to stand on his own, so Truth took his leg. Al wanted to feel his mother's warmth, so Truth took his body. Izumi wanted to ressurrect her dead son, so Truth took away her reproductive organs. Mustang had a grand vision of the future, so Truth took away his ability to see it.

This is the cost of desiring forbidden knowledge, an equivalent exchange that the alchemist didn't know about and most of them don't like. It's then up to them to decide if it wasn't worth it, or decide to use their newfound knowledge for something else.

...

Good intentions don't justify bad actions, mate.

Well? Why?

(gods not real))))

hahahha oh my god oy vey lads this fucking edgelord atheist actually fucking said it stupid le ledditor fucking cringe underage b& get off Sup Forums go debate christians in your fedora

unless you want to go though bible studies, the answer is simply because god permissive will allows it.

good or evil

God fucking dammit people. Truth is not an abrahamic god expy. There's nothing that indicates he created the FMA universe, is in any way responsible for creating humanity, cares about their worries or could actually do something about them if he did. He's just the personification of an abstract law of nature and can't do anything without an alchemist fucking up first.

The hilarious thing about the little cocksucker?
The first thing he does after finally getting free, getting a body and becoming a demigod?
He builds a fucking city to IMPRISONED HIMSELF INTO AN EVEN BIGGER GODDAMNED PRISON. BUT WITH A THRONE
He was a little pissant with stupid dreams who was given too much power.

Nothing more nothing less.

Because the human concept of Good and Bad doesn't apply to fundamental forces of Existence you silly billy.

God is very being that is Reality, without which nothing would exist all together, It is One, and it is All. In this, it's existence means our existence, and this is a Good. So when people say, "God is Good" it is a means to say "God exists, and therefore so does the world around me, myself included." not "God farts rainbows and puppies and everything is honkey dorey."

God as the singular Unity of All Things is actually pretty ambevolant, and is kind of a dick sometimes. however there is always a purpose behind the actions undertaken, and its usually down the line with the reverberations of an action. Like I said before, its not a Human concept, so you really shouldn't try to understand through Human words. Don't even call it God, because that's dragging down to a Human level of understanding.

It simply is, has been, and will continue to be; It exists therefore so do all things, in this there is no change.

If you are talking about the sufferings of Flesh then you are trying to apply Individual Humanism to a Concept that is higher than it, and you need to accept that your Flesh, and everything contained within such as your Identity and Ego is just a virtual obstacle and existence, and the basest form of your being, your conscious being, animation/soul/consciousness is what you are, what all things are, and ultimately what God is.

Once you realize that, then you will know the same Constant; God Is Good.

Well, that's relatable

Right, Sup Forums?

That even wasn't his goal. The absolute state of FMABfags

Nice shitpost, amigo.

One of the Divine Truths:
"Existence is Suffering"
It is a means to say, to exist within Physical Manifestation is to be in Pain as it is a means for the Anima/Soul/Consciousness to experience the sufferings, temptations and virtuality of Physicality.

You go from being a part of a Great Unity, without thought or Identity, just a piece of conscious wisp without form or individualness, and are made manifest in a form that is limited and temporary. Made worse by the concept of Individual Ego and Identity, which we often get lost in navigating and fulfilling the desires of, often forgetting the nature of our origin and destination.

Why this is, is simply it is the nature of God, if matter exists to be made manifest, it manifests; as parts of that Collective Unity, we are unfortunante enough to be those partitions of the Collective Unity to be made manifest in Physicality.

God is a dick sometimes, because it doesn't really ask your opinion on this, and deems it to be so if it so chooses to be made manifest. Then again, you are, and were a portion of this Unity, so I suppose you have no one but yourself to blame for this.

No one asks to be born, however there's a part of me that believes this simply isn't true, especially if all of us are part of the Collective that is God.

So yes, it's relatable; it is the Divine Truth of Manifestation "Existence is Suffering."

however that Divine Truth leads to the Divine Truth of Eternity "Death is not the End" which leads to the Divine Truth of Unity "All are One, One is All" which then leads back to the Divine Truth of Manifestation.

This is why persons such as myself seek to escape the cycle of Life and Death, and not be made manifest again by reaching a state of Self Realization that in the time of the Physical passing, the base consciousness can just stay within the Unity that is God.

I'm not your amigo, compañero

According to christians everything is in gods plan.
So all of us posting on Sup Forums was carefully thought out and planned...weird

Yes, nerd.

>Christianity
>Babby's first glance into Theosophy

If god is all loving why does evil exist*

this throws nu-testament chriscucks into autistic fits

>I know everything that will happen
>I know even before his birth that a human x will end up in hell for eternity
>I still choose to create x

>A man cannot understand god
>Let us explain what god wants

>Neglecting people who are suffering unfairly or being ok with it is evil
>Hey guys, who all got into heaven, don't mind those in hell

>Of course you have a free will
>Don't mind me knowing the outcome of all your decisions

>baiting a thread that has a Theosopher in it with low tier fallacies

This is you.

He did pay the price though. He came to see truth with all the souls he needed. They weren't his, but he definitely didn't brute force it and try to cheat the system.
It's not like he walked into the convenience store with $1 asking for a $5 item. He had those extra $4 that he borrowed from other people.

And if the whole idea is that it's wrong to use other people's souls no matter what, then why did Mustang get his eyes back by using Ishvalans? Those are still humans no matter what.

So if the series started with Ed and Al being smart enough to offer their gates of truth, would they have gotten their mother back and never have lost anything besides alchemy? And also have stopped Father's plan by no longer being viable sacrifices or being able to be forced through the gate?

Well, what was his goal?

To wear pants.

Father was always stealing and lying to get what he needed. He never tried to do things all on his own, or rely on others for help.

As for Mustang, it's stated that he's using the souls to ensure he can give his all in reconstruction the nation and Ishval. It's like how Al used the stone to fight Pride and Kimbley even though he knew it means using the ensnared souls, he was giving them a sense of purpose rather than just being fuel for a homunculus revival or creating monstrosities like chimeras. It might be a bit presumptuous to assume what the souls want, but surely they'd prefer being used to do something good than fulfill a selfish need.

Probably not. When Ed dug up "Trisha" to confirm what Al and he had made, that more or less confirmed that nobody can be resurrected, at least not without having the soul to begin with (as seen when Father shat out some of the Xerxes people). The most they could have done was probably restore their bodies, but even then it's assumed that one or both would have been stuck in the void since the gates are the way in and out of that place.

>Now will you put on a fucking shirt already?

Funny story about Homunculi;
Homunculi refers to three seperate things;
"A Body That has Soul, but does not have Mind."
[Artificial Human; Frankenstein's Monster.]
"A Soul That has Mind" [Alchemist's Dwarf in the Flask]
"A Mind within the Body which has no Soul"
[Descartes' Little Viewing Man]

All three are part of what makes Humans, truly Human; Mind, Body, and Soul; there can be variations of, but never an exact replica, for how can Humans ever dream of stepping on God's treshold without first becoming God, and how can One assume Individualism within the Multitude that is All Things?

Its one of the reasons why Human Clones are so fascinating to me, because it holds a lot of answers behind a door of genetic and scientific abomination. To think all the answers of God, Self, and Creation can be answered simply by Cloning a Human Being. However; like the Elric Brothers search for the Philosopher Stone, I think the pursuit of will only lead to despair, and the further machinations of a greater, and wicked force.

He wanted to put the entire universe in a flask. He learned nothing.

In these variations of Homunculi and being Human come interesting stories that we unknowingly cling to.

For example; Frankensteins Monster is the story of an abomination that is Flesh given Animation, but has no Mind; however at the end the Monster finds a Mind of its own, and truly becomes Human, only to die.

In FMA: B, Father seeks a physical vessel, and in doing so chooses God; he becomes whole but is unable to maintain this and subsquently dies.

In Pinnochio, a wooden puppet is given a Mind, to which gets him into a lot of shenangins until the end he is given a soul, and turns into a real Human boy, to which he then dies after he lives his life.

Humans are always fascinated by these concepts, because it both subconsciously raises our own Egos by saying "We're complete beings" while at the same time making us lesser in saying "Well, why can't we create things like us within our own means outside of procreation?"

To which is why I find the concept of Human Cloning fascinating, because perhaps we've already achieved God's Realm of Creation; or perhaps we've simply created Pinnochio, or Frankenstein's Monster.

...

I still don't really get how this is suffering or despair.

Anyone want to give an explanation?

He's trapped inside the gate for eternity. Considering he was born from it (or at least his appearance took form based on the shadowy stuff within gates), he's undying and will never see an end to his existence. People often think dying is the worst thing, but being left in a situation where you can never know peace is much worse.

I see. So it's like being in Hell then, without form or freedom, while never being able to return to baser consciousness.

My, at least Kars' mind went silent, I can't imagine what its like to be trapped in Existence for Eternity without a means to return to base conscious.

What's probably worse about it is that the Origin source is RIGHT THERE, and he still has to exist seperate from it, like being locked in the same room with Food and Water, yet it pulls away each time you reach for it, and you can never die.

Woof.

>eating and killing animals and plants is okay
>animals do have souls and they are capable of being used in chimeras
>animal souls can also drive that weird husk of a body brought back after human transmutation
>animal transmutation is fine and birds have been shown to be brought back to life or created out of thin air
But
>human transmutation is wrong
>using philosophers stones is wrong

What happened to that circle of life, guys? All of a sudden that doesn't count when the wheel lands on humans?

What would you do if we cloned a human and it turned out just fine? Would you assume they're lacking something, even if they die happily and fullfilled?

>Human transmutation is wrong.
then tell me the ethics of why Human Cloning is wrong. It isn't is it? There's nothing wrong with it surely. We've certainly been able to recreate our Creation yes without any set backs or ethical issues yes?
Humans transmutation is wrong because you can't create Soul, you can only emulate it (Frankenstein's Monster), steal it from another (FMA;B) or take from the Origin. (Procreation).

>Using Philosopher Stones is wrong
>It's a stone made out of Human souls that voluntarily did not want to be turned into such a form. This is like saying, "I have killed a man, I have done nothing wrong as I've given him peace." Did the man want to die? Who are you to decide if he needed/wanted peace? Now if someone willingly wants to be turned into a Philosopher Stone, then there is no real ethical question, but not too many people offer themselves up for that sort of thing.

Using animal souls would also be bad in Ed's moral code, that's fairly obvious. But animals are not as important as humans. If animal souls were as complex as ours, then the philosopher's stones could have been made out of cows and the whole thing wouldn't have happened.
Also, "the wheel lands on humans"? You make it sound as if it was sheer bad luck

If a Cloned Human exists, it means one of several things.

If its fine: "Hooray! We've gotten one step closer to God and we now know that our being as Humans comes from these very specific things that we can emulate and recreate! The answer to how we've become is closer to being solved!" and then we can continue to walk down that path to becoming more and more like God, until eventually our Egos lead us down a path of self destruction.

If its not, "Hmm...there's something more to being Human that what we've thought, what is it we're missing?"

Anyways, I know we've already Cloned Humans before, however I'm curious on whatever happened to them, are they in a lab, have they already died? Do they have Self Awareness? I am curious to meet a clone, a human born outside the womb of a mother. an artificial being that calls Man its creator.

I am genuinely curious to meet an abomination, and see if the deeper questions of Theosophy can be answered in its unforunantly short life span.

Then again, I'd have to be a powerful figure to ever really know that truth, or ever see that happen haha. Maybe one day.

Animals and plants don't offer themselves up to be eaten or transmuted either, but that still happens without a problem.
And I don't think cloning is wrong. I don't think human transmutation should be wrong either. I'm questioning the morals of the characters and the nature of their world. It doesn't line up given that we know things other than humans actually have souls.

>I am curious to meet a clone, a human born outside the womb of a mother
Well, those are different things. Artificial insemination still occurs with human cells, so it's just a human born in a different environment. I wouldn't call that an abomination just as I don't call c-section kids abominations

then again, a clone that is born without womb I don't think is done quite yet, although I'm very certain a cloned fetus placed within the womb has been done.

Father also could have brute forced 5 random people through the gate before they even built the country instead of waiting hundreds of years for the Elric brothers to arrive. He also could have convinced the researchers to perform the transmutation instead of waiting around for his 4 extra beyond Hoinheim. So yeah, it might actually be possible that he could have used cow souls but instead wanted to wait for the Brothers for some stupid reason.

That's how they did Dolly, with a womb. It's pretty hard to replicate those.
>The scientists who created Dolly — named after Dolly Parton, naturally — removed the DNA from a sheep ovum, fused the ovum with a mammary epithelial cell from an adult “donor” sheep, and transplanted the result, now carrying DNA only from the donor, into a surrogate ewe.

To be honest I don't see the "abomination" here. It's just a combination of cells, same thing that happens naturally. I guess if you actually took proteins and molded them into cells that would be radically different, and at that point it would be "creating life", but modern techniques seem like natural insemination with extra steps. Unless anyone wants to claim the womb is what gives us a soul, I don't see why it would be an abomination at all.

well, if animal souls are useful at all that would be a shitload of cows

Well artificial insemination still has something that comes from a physical origin source, and its truly not man made.

I think a truly artificial Human would probably be something that has no originating Human source such as genetic code/fluids.

Then again, would that really be Human if it doesn't have Human genetics? Perhaps a true Clone would be something of a mish mash of genetic sources from an originator, that is given an unnatural means of incubation.

Like an artificial womb, essentially a cultivar of human genetics. But is that a Human?

Hmm... the questions only continue.
And there we have a Divine Truth; "For living things to continue living, we must consume other living things"
Why is that the function of how things work? Why must living things kill other living things to continue living? Why is it that animals and plants can be recreated easily, but not Humans?

I think that's the problem with Cloning and Human Transmutation, there's something more to Humans than there is to Plants and Animals.

Well isn't Dolly just that? A recreation of the original? Thus an extension of herself?

I suppose the question can be asked, "If you slice a worm in half, and let the halves continue to exist, are they the same worm or two seperate individuals?" When it comes to Humans, the similar question could be asked, "If a humans genetic code was rebirthed, is the new clone an individual or an extension of the original? Does it have self awareness? Is it its own being? If done so via a womb, then its really no different than having your physical manifestation being reborn again. If it has a Soul and Individual Self, this means that Soul and Individual Self comes from somewhere else, if it does not have a Soul or Individual Self, this means that the Soul and Individual Self comes from the very genetics that allow our physicality in the first place.

(cont'd)
So in all reality, tell me how a Human Clone wouldn't be an abomination,

Either it is
A: A Soulless Recreation of a Human
B: A proof that Soul comes from an Origin that simply embodies whatever is available to inhabit
C: An actual Human being that has been created, simply to be tested upon, answer philosophical questions, and then subsquently die?

>The whole point is equivalent exchange.
Accordind to the original anime, equivalent exchange is bullshit and the only ones who clong it are heroic fools like Ed.

>Does it have self awareness?
Given that some humans live just fine with half a brain I'd say that's a silly question to ask. If it has a human brain it will be able to think like a human, though I suppose it's possible that the clone is born braindead because it has no soul. Doubtful, since Dolly moved just fine.
>Is it its own being?
That's a metaphysical question. If you can't tell where your soul comes from, neither can the clone, so we're stuck on that front. To know if clones are actual humans is to know what a soul is. Is it morals? Is it love? How does a soulless creature behave?
In short, there's no point to this question right now, since we have no information.

Equivalent exchange absolutely happens, it's just that some people use borrowed money for it while Ed doesn't

That always feels kinda dumb to me. In universe, equivalent exchange is supposed to be a scientific absolute.

All means is that Ed is an idiot.

I don't quite get your definition of abomination. Is it something biological made unnaturally that has a soul?
I mean, your whole argument is that the clone will not have a soul, and that's very hard to gauge. How do you know a psychopath is not an abomination, for instance?
A is unprovable.
B wouldn't really matter, since if it's allowed it's natural.
C would be amoral for whoever kills the person. Many people are born by mistake anyway, so they're born without a purpose too, and I don't consider those abominations.

He just doesn't want to kill people
It is, I never see proof of the contrary
where the exchanged material comes from doesn't matter, but there must always be exchange

Was it ever explained what's thet thing with hands that is beyond the gate? Is it Mercurius?

He had no problem with killing animals though, and animals have souls. He could have made a philosophers stone from a couple cows, redo the transmutation he and all tried as kids with the cow stone, and have gotten his mom back. Then he could have done it again to get their bodies back. Then they could have just left the country and Father wouldn't have had his sacrifices. They could have saved the world and gotten their mom back that way.

The truth exists beyond the Gate.

>ressurect mom with a cow stone
Would that result in a Japanese cow?

>He could have made a philosophers stone from a couple cows
Could he? We never get information on how many cow souls are worth one human soul. Maybe they're thousands of times weaker. There's a reason why they don't even mention the possibility (obviously drama, but in-story it's someething else).

As per self awareness, I suppose this is true.
As per being its own being, yes; that is the question that currently has no answer. What is Soul?

Is it Animation? Is it Consciousness? Is it Lifeforce?

In my belief that I've come to accept as Truth, Soul is an extension of God, and the Flesh and Mind are just Physical containers of. I'm a meat puppet pulled around by aetherial strings, and once the puppet breaks down, the strings will go back to the Origin of their source.

So at least in my definition of understanding, if a new meat puppet where to be created, would the strings of my Origin inhabit it too?

If so, then it answers my question; "Yes, you're a meat puppet." If not, then it answers my question "No, you have to be made in a specific way."

In a conservative sense, I believe that anything that comes from an unnatural sense is an abomination. Now I'm not a traditionalist in the sense that "ELECTRiCITY=ABOMINATION" but rather someone who thinks "Hmm, there were ingredients here that were altered with to create something new biologically, but only in a biological sense.

To me, Steel is not abomination; however Genetically Modified Foods are. A mouse that has a human ear on its back is an abomination to me.

It's something that has been toyed with to create something that naturally wouldn't arise on its own. Mutations are not abomination.

A: This is true, or at least its extremely hard to really test out.
B: Aye, but it would be confirmation of that Truth I have come to believe in, which is more sombering than really confiding.
C: Morality is a spook to those who would choose to walk down God's treshold anyway. I don't think the life of something that even philosophers aren't sure is Human or not would really matter to them, especially when the Life of a Human being doesn't really matter that much to them.

GUITAR RIFF

A Japanese tit cow

>Ed makes Beef Stew metaphor
>"Milk, meat and vegetables to create a whole new thing"
D E E P E S T L O R E

>A mouse that has a human ear on its back is an abomination to me.
>It's something that has been toyed with to create something that naturally wouldn't arise on its own. Mutations are not abomination.
Is a bred dog an abomination? It's "man-made", after all.
How about cutting my ear and sewing it to my arm? That has been done, too.
It seems to me that your problem is aesthetic. X method is fine, Y method is not.

As for the answer to C, I didn't clarify; if there's a purpose or not in any human's birth is also unprovable because it's metaphysical, so it's irrelevant too, and the only problem is the creator's morality. A naturally born human used for tests is still human.

I thought it was weird a supernatural spirit would have lust.

Besides Lust never really seemed to live up her name besides dating Havoc.

>Fat
>Jap
>Titties
fap...fapfap....fapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfapfap
*books flight to japan*
fapfapfapfapfapfapapfapfapfapfap

Hmm... perhaps I was unclear in my statement of abomination. "X fucks Y, makes Z; is it abomination? No, X would've eventually fucked Y to make Z."

When it comes to sewing an ear to your arm, would've you done this naturally? Would this happen naturally? If not, then it is abomination. A mouse with two heads is not abomination, it is Nature happening at its own course, a mouse with a Human ears sewn onto it is not natural, and therefore abomination.

It's like going into the Trans-Humanist/Futurist movement, and Transexual movement in modern society.
Can a man/woman shift into the opposite sex naturally? On a physical level no, if a man cuts off his genitals to become a woman, then he is abomination, if a woman grafts a penis and testicles to herself, she is also abomination. If you fuck around with your hormones to mess with your body, then doing so within natural limits is fine, to over do it is to become abomination.

If my child were to come home with a Music Player/Cell phone embedded in their arm, I would consider them abomination, especially in a negative sense because it serves no purpose. I view people who have pacemakers, stints, and artificial limbs as abomination as well; however I see that it serves a greater purpose and therefore can't really be mad or upset at it.

Like I said, I have a conservative mindset about it, if it wouldn't happen naturally, it is abomination, however I am not a monster who decries unnatural things for the sake of progress and benefit.

Trans-humanism and transexuality serves no higher purpose to society/humanity however, and only means to serve Self interest above anything else, and so I call it abomination in a negative light.

Not that I particularly care about the decisions that Humans choose for their own physical bodies, since that is their choice to make, it's just my observation that if they choose such things, they stray from the path of natural occurence, and thus have welcomed abomination.

You have a point. The thing is human souls hold more capacity in terms of creation and deconstruction. Basically put Humans are Sentient life forms, by one definition is to question ones existence, or to know one exists. While animals run on instinct and trained behaivor given by humans.
So to use animals in creating a stone would be like using a basic power cable alone to produce a radio signal. Where you need a radio to produce said signal.
Humans hold the imagination and that is transferred into the stone so what ever you imagine the stone will know what you want since the stoneis an accumulation of not just power but thought and imagination. Its having a demi god in the palm of your hand.

M O M M Y

>Alphonse responds with FUCK YEAH BEEF STEW.
C O N F I R M E D.

>Being over-involved is no longer parenting. It's enabling.

Well, from what we've seen recently some animals have intelligence and some even have limited imagination, but still. Whether it's intelligence, soul, or if it's the same, it seems animals are still vastly inferior

You consider it enabling to make sure your dog doesn't run out into the road, or is killed by the neighborhood hobo?

>But God made him and put him in the world in the first place. Why put him down there on Earth only to make him fail and then punish him?
Not really, homunculus is really supposed to have never left that dark void in which he came from. That's where he belongs. He got lucky being brought out because of an alchemist, and then further got lucky tricking the King and getting to leave the flask.