What the FUCK was Kiritsugu's problem? I get that she was being an autist with muh honour in battle, but he didn't have to ignore Saber completely. Hell, what was wrong with everybody in that Grail war? The only Masters that didn't do anything wrong was a serial killer and a manlet.
What the FUCK was Kiritsugu's problem? I get that she was being an autist with muh honour in battle...
He was mad because he wanted to summon Chadhur but he got some womenlet instead.
Probably the same thing that made him cheat on his wife.
>gotta kill Iri in the end, better betray her early to prepare myself
>gotta suicide my servant in the end, better treat her like shit to prepare myself
>I get that she was being an autist with muh honour in battle, but he didn't have to ignore Saber completely
And do what? Get in a shouting match every time they tried to talk to each other?
Go back to whatever garbage board you came from
>what was wrong with everybody in that Grail war?
They were all manchildren who, despite their combat competence, had fatal flaws in other areas. It's a greek tragedy prequel to a coming of age story, what do you expect?
>why can‘t everyone get along?
Kiritsugu knew he couldn‘t trust her with his battle plans from the begining since she would fuck it up because muh honor
Basically, yes. Had Kiritsugu interacted with Saber more, he might've grown attached to her, which would've made it impossible to use her as a disposable tool to win the war.
Who would have been the ideal servant for Kerry?
Nothing was wrong with Kiritsugu. What he did was purely based on logic. Between ignoring your Servant, or trying to talk to them and end up fighting AGAINST your Servant, the former is the better choice.
He could have at least gotten Iri to talk to Saber about her abilities, had he found out how broken she is with avalon they could have easily won.
He said himself he'd prefer assassin or caster.
>Can give avalon to saber and make her literally invincible even against gilgamesh
>Better give it to my wife so she can live more to see how i cuck her.
Amazing writing, fatefags.
Kotomine's Hassan would've been ridiculously OP in Kiritsugu's control. Not just one disposable tool, but 80. Eyes and distractions everywhere. Daggers and bullets from the dark when everyone least expects them. The other Masters probably would've had a heart attack out of paranoia well before the end of the war.
Without Avalon, he'd have died. It was Avalon that kept him alive.
Even with Avalon, Saber doesn't have much way of fighting against Gilgamesh or DUDE. The best way of taking care of them was to dispose of their Masters first. That Kiritsugu's role, so he needed that Avalon more than she did.
And his battle plan worked. He pretty much won. Gilgamesh was still alive, but Kirei died. He was the last surviving Master.
Then Saber goes,
>hurr I can't win this fight, but using Avalon wouldn't be fair to my opponent in this wonderful contest of pure strength, so I won't
She literally used it in the fate route in the VN against gilgamesh m8.
It's her ability to begin with, why would she not use it? I know Urobuchi overclocked her chivalry, but it's no different from everyone using other NPs.
>Assassins sniping from a distance needs health buffs more than the front line needs invulnerability
>Assassins sniping from a distance needs health buffs more than the front line needs invulnerability
Oh yeah, it was totally possible to snipe Kirei in the batcave. It was open from all sides. He could've sniped from anywhere. It's not like he needed to get in the batcave to fight. What use could Avalon have with him?
Just give it to Saber, who is all but guaranteed to lose. It'll surely be handy against an army of tens of thousands, or Gilgamesh.
How far are you going? This should have been top priority at the start of the war. He should have restructured his entire strategy having an invincible servant and find other ways to protect Iri (namely not have her run off fighting Kirei).
>Just give it to Saber, who is all but guaranteed to lose. It'll surely be handy against an army of tens of thousands, or Gilgamesh.
It's almost as if you haven't read the Fate route.
This was after she recognised Archer to be a cheating evil bastard, and corrupted by the grail.
Saber in Fate is slightly less Naive.
>It's almost as if you haven't read the Fate route.
You're the one who needs to read that shit.
Saber needed to get hit with and survive Ea THREE fucking times just to get her position and timing right, and even then she had to rely on the fact that Gilgamesh had idea what Avalon was. All of that combined, and she described her chances of winning as practically non-existent. And that's against a dumbed down Gilgamesh of Stay Night, who went up to her and just outright showed her what Ea is. It was equivalent to winning a fucking lottery.
Give her Avalon for the entire fight, and that goes out of the window. The element of surprise is gone and she has nothing going for her. In the final night, there were 4 Servants alive. At best, she take care of one. The rest would shit all over her.
Not to mention the defensive powers of Avalon are useless against DUDE. His NP isn't a big wave, it is a storm of tiny droplets. Even if Avalon defends against one, the next thousands are still fine and ready to attack. Only the healing power of Avalon would be of any use.
Giving her Avalon is an easy way of dying and losing the war. Stop watching DEEN anime and go read the fucking VN. It dosen't make her invincible against everything.
I thought Kiritsugu didn't talk to Saber because he was being a butthurt hippie who hated all heroes who glorified war.
The way it was used made it just look like some asspull coincidence rather than Saber deliberately activating it
>Implying that Assassin could break into the Tohsaka compound with Gil there to guard it
Tokiomi would have just turtled until Kerry was forced to come to him and then EA
>Kiritsugu summons EMIYA
>EMIYA instantly tries to assassinate him
That is the case and he says so in those exact words
That, and a lot of other bullshit like how little girls shouldn't be pushed into her positions and all that.
I could totally imagine Kerry ordering Assassin to break in a government military facility and fire ballistic rockets at Tokiomi's house.
>Implying that Irisviel wouldn't habe joined in if Kerry had asked
>Implying that Irisviel didn't bang Saber
>Hell, what was wrong with everybody in that Grail war?
One of the prerequisites for being a mage in FSN is to abandon morality for the sake of magical research and power. Most mages are non-criminal psychopaths at best and murderous sociopaths at worst. It makes sense that the strongest mages, competing for an unlimited wish, are some of the most fucked up people on the planet.
>Hell, what was wrong with everybody in that Grail war?
Adults acting like children.
>Implying DUDE wouldn't lose to Saber when without Avalon
Excalibur is an Anti-Fortress NP. DUDE's pathetic RM would collapse instantly.
Also, F/Z Gil is just as dumb as F/SN Gil, or are you forgetting how he let Lancelot demolish his pretty wannabe spaceship?
You're also understimating Avalon termenduosly.
Iksander's Reality Marble > Excalibur
>Anti-Fortesss NP destroys RMs
Are you pretending to be retarded or are you legitimately retarded?
>F/Z Gil is just as dumb as F/SN Gil
Nasu literally made up an excuse to explain his stupidness, saying he was affected by the Grail mud. He was MUCH more stupid in SN.
Gil already saw something block Ea when Shirou did it, he's just to arrogant taking things that can beat him into account.
Against the others, she can win fine with the healing against anyone but Lancer's second NP. Against Rider, all she has to do is excalibur a large chunk of his army and the RM would collapse.
Killing the master is far less effective against Archer's independent action, he could grab another master elsewhere (he can do that right? Medea did it), and with Saber dead he would have been screwed.
He'll have a lot of shit from mage association causing something that can't be handwaved by "lolgasleak".
Did Nasu finally give up the retarded bit about Gil being incorruptible by the grail mud?
Kind of. He still sticks by that. His explanation was that Gilgamesh wasn't corrupted. Just affected. Corrupting means changing him. The mud just affected him.
That said, it's only his "soul" and "spirit" that are incorruptible. His body is vulnerable to it.
Excalibur's activation was enough to collapse UBW in the UBW route.
DUDE's shitty RM has no chance.
See above about Excalibur.
Also Iskander's RM is supported by his army and the retard charges in the front of it, a well placed Excalibur blast would decimate him and his shitters.
>Nasu literally made up an excuse to explain his stupidness, saying he was affected by the Grail mud. He was MUCH more stupid in SN.
Oh so you are a secondary? The F/Z LN goes in detail about how Gil's ego makes him unable to be corrupted by the grail mud.
He was only affected by being given a human body. Gilgamesh was still the same retard he was in F/Z. If Artoria had Avalon in F/Z Gilgamesh still wouldn't account for it because he is an arrogant retard.
1) Shirou blocked Merodach with Avalon, not EA.
>Against the others, she can win fine with the healing against anyone but Lancer's second NP
This is arguable. I'd say Avalon is stronger than that shitty curse and that Iri and Kerry are both retards for keeping the relic a secret because reasons and going along with a gimped servant.
Why are all the characters so autistic? Why can't Japan write normal, reasonable characters?
Those are boring.
>Excalibur is an Anti-Fortress NP. DUDE's pathetic RM would collapse instantly.
Ionion Hetairoi EX
No, you fucking secondary. The VN LITERALLY tells you that UBW was disappearing. The Excalibur blast didn't do jack shit on its own, it was Shirou running out of Mana that was the cause. Excaliblast just finished the process. How do you think Excalibur blast from OUTSIDE of the Reality Marble managed to send its light INSIDE the RM? Because the Reality Marble was already pretty much gone.
Nasu went on record to say he became more impulsive and unreasonable after reincarnation. Even if he is the same, according to Saber herself, " Probably because the probability of victory is so low and the chance of a comeback is pretty much zero". This is after she knows what Ea is. In Zero, she doesn't. Just like how Gilgamesh was surprised and taken off guard by Avalon, Saber is in the same position. She has no idea what to do defend against. Her chances of winning in Zero are less than zero.
But no, keep on believing it doesn't matter. Keep on behaving like a retard simply because Kiritsugu hurts your feelings.
Excalibur is so powerful and disruptive that it causes Unlimited Blade Works to collapse just by going off near it in the VN.
Within Ioniai Hetairoi, which is explicitly supported by the entire army rather than Alexander alone, an Excaliblast that wiped out most of his forces would certainly collapse the Reality Marble even if it didn't kill Alexander himself.
Robin or Li Shuwen would suit pretty well, though Li's liable to sabotage Kerry's efforts a bit if only to have some fun
>most of his forces
That implies at least 50% or more.
His forces are made up of at least 20k soldiers. Likely much more. So you need to take out at least 10k in one shot. A bit of a long shot, don't you think? Not to mention in Zero, she failed to get even Iskandar himself at close range with Excalibur. He just fucking dodged it. Later on, Gilagmesh, too, just dodges it.
Getting "most of his forces" with a single Excaliblast is pretty much impossible. As for the shattering UBW, read the post above you. UBW was disappearing before the blast came.
>Hell, what was wrong with everybody in that Grail war?
>why are they actual power hungry mages instead of highschool teenagers with a habit of misguided moralfag monologuing?!?!?!
>A cast full of amoral manchildren chasing impossible fantasies and delusions of grandeur is much better than a cast full of young adults who are forced to face their misconceptions and shortcoming through the war and become better people
>characters having flaws and philosophies other than "I MUST DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND FIGHT FOR MY FRIENDS" is bad
Stick to shonenshit like the VN (especially UBW), user.
This is why SF > HF > Zero > UBW > Fate >> Apoc
>"I MUST DO WHAT IS RIGHT AND FIGHT FOR MY FRIENDS"
You should probably read it yourself.
>So you need to take out at least 10k in one shot. A bit of a long shot, don't you think?
This. At most her Excalibur would take out a few thousand if she was lucky. Which would be about 20% of his army.
Kiritsugu faces the exact same moral dilemma Shirou faces in Heaven's Feel trying to emulate Kiritsugu's ideals.
Shirou is forced to face the prospect of sacrificing Sakura for the "greater good" and makes the right choice as a man.
Kiritsugu falters on the eve of the war, knowing he could finally have happiness in his grasp by running away with Irisveil and Illya, but he gives them up for the "greater good" to fulfill his naive fantasy. He was a failure of man who placed his faith in higher powers over his own heart.
Kiritsugu made the right choice. You should always sacrifice the few to save the many, even if the few includes people you care about.
I still don't understand what was the though process behind sending grail to fight as a master in a grail war.
Because then killing the master isn't an option and you have to resort to killing the servant.
They mean concept value, not power.
Stella is fucking B++ and could offset Lion King's Rhogonomyniad which was EX.
>UBW was disappointing
Excalibur still caused it to be destroyed.
DUDE is a retard who charges straight ahead and would be a very easy target.
His army would mean nothing to Excalibur.
>" Probably because the probability of victory is so low and the chance of a comeback is pretty much zero".
You're a retard. The narrative always says things like that in order to hype up the ultimate victory. HA has this by basically saying it was impossible for Saber to evade Hrunting in mid air then she goes on, does it and the narrative changes by saying that because she is a heroic spirit she can do impossible things.
The moment Saber received Avalon, that fight was already settled.
>Nasu went on record to say he became more impulsive and unreasonable after reincarnation
Nope. It's only said that due to living on that era, Gilgamesh became more of it's mirror. Nothing says that affected his combat ability. I'm FZ he was still a proud retarded who understimated people and got blown out by it.
>Saber is in the same position. She has no idea what to do defend against. Her chances of winning in Zero are less than zero.
She can take one EA hit and recover just fine because of Avalon, which is what she needs in order to use Avalon properly.
>But no, keep on believing it doesn't matter. Keep on behaving like a retard simply because Kiritsugu hurts your feelings
You're just unable to admit that Kerry was a retard because he gimped his servant.
Iskander dodged by sacrificing his chariot. You forgot to add this fact.
Also, Excalibur is Anti Fortress, 10k is an army, of course it would top that. It did in HA.
>A cast full of amoral manchildren chasing impossible fantasies and delusions of grandeur
Describes both Stay Night and Zero casts perfectly, to be honest. The most "normal" Master in Stay Night was Kuzuki. He was the only one who didn't make retarded decisions for his muh ideals.
How are you people so stupid?
>why didn't he talk with saber?
Because he hated everything she stood for and he knew that if he did and she got whiff of what he intended to do, she'd disobey him if not outright betray him.
>b-but why not give saber avalon?
Because he needed Iri to stay alive, and later he reasoned that Saber would manage fine without it while he would not, an invincible servant is of no use to a dead master. Sure enough it was a good call, because without it he'd have died against Kirei.
>trying to compare Shirou to Kiritsugu
In case you didn't notice, Zero is very different and the plot didn't bend backwards for a monologuing moralfag teenager, pulling the same shit Shirou did in Zero would not end well. It's like asking why Walter in Breaking Bad didn't just cry and get nakama power to defeat the drug dealers like Deku in HxH would do.
>Missing the point of Zero
Saber in HA canonically dealt with an army of grail creatures that certainly had more than 10k components with a single Excaliblast.
I'm convinced. Saber is the strongest and there is no better way of fighting than to give her Avalon. Even if she was tossed around and played with when she had Avalon in Fate, even if she admits her strategy for victory is suicidal and winning would be a miracle, it means nothing.
Only what you say is true. Excalibur destroys RMs. Excalibur's beam doesn't travel in a straight path, but instead will sweep over Iskandar's army. Avalon completely makes her invincible and nothing can beat her with Avalon. I have never been convinced this hard before.
You still have 0% chance to win because your master is going to turn into a fucking chalice in the middle of war.
>In case you didn't notice, Zero is very different and the plot didn't bend backwards for a monologuing moralfag teenager, pulling the same shit Shirou did in Zero would not end well. It's like asking why Walter in Breaking Bad didn't just cry and get nakama power to defeat the drug dealers like Deku in HxH would do.
>Implying Shirou has nakama power
not even in the Fate route he has that.
Also Kiritsugu could've abandoned his ideal to live safely with his family (Prisma Illya ia a world where he does that). It's just that in Zero he was too much of a stubborn fool to chase for his happiness.
Shirou is different because, like Kotomine, his happiness is dependent on other people. So following the ideal is originally something that makes him happy and not a tiring duty. That aspect also is something that Archer loses and that Kiritsugu never has, which is why he is unable to reach the same decision HF Shirou did.
Wasn't Iri set to expire after the Zero Grail War? How would running away with her work?
stop posting pictures of FUCKING SABER CLONES
In a war without so many high-tier Servants, Illya probably would have been able to stay conscious until only Berserker was left. She survives taking in 6 Servants in Fate route. At that point either she was "programmed" to automatically order Berserker to kill himself or I think Sella might have been able to "operate" her to some extent.
Also the Einzberns are fucking dumb and desperate and had to throw SOMETHING together in 10 years.
ooooohhhh just realised thats saber never mind
>pulling the same shit Shirou did in Zero would not end well.
You don't think the "Magus Killer" could have taken out one the most traditional an idiotic magus families out there after spending 8-10 years learning everything about them?
>Saber in HA canonically dealt with an army of grail creatures that certainly had more than 10k components with a single Excaliblast.
You seem to be forgetting how Excalibur works. It was only that powerful against the grail creatures because they were nothing but pure entities of malice. The more malice you have, the more powerful her Excalibur becomes. Artoria is actually forbidden from using Excalibur against fairies and people that are pure of heart.
>people that are pure of heart
Bullshit. She used it against Gilgamesh.
They all have their issues, the problem is most of the Zero masters are grown-ass adults who have had a lifetime to realize that they're awful people and make little to no character progression over the course of the story.
Tokiomi is the image of an distinguished, proper magus, and him handing over Sakura to Zouken because he genuinely believes it would be better for a little girl to be utterly broken and violated to become another family's heir than "wasting" her potential as a magus in the Tohsaka household makes him more warped/depraved than any Master in F/SN short of Zouken himself. And even Zouken, the five-hundred year old wormlich whose soul is literally rotting, realizes how far he's gone in the end.
He's talking about the actual myth, not what Nasu made of it.
Tokiomi did nothing wrong. Sakura was just a bitch. Getting wormed in return for MAGIC is a fair trade. Even you would insert a worm in your asshole everyday if it meant gaining magical powers.
There were people trying to murder each other. Murder. That's way worse than putting a few worms on Sakura for magical reasons.
This is complete bullshit and you know it.
It's not like he has any idea what kind of shit Zouken is going to put her through. He knows their magic specializes in insects and the soul and that they've been around for centuries, that's about the extent of it though. The actual details are all heavily guarded, really only Zouken knows any of it at this point.
It's true I'm afraid.
Pic related would want a word with you.
Evola servant when?
Imagine Irisviel trying to hold a conversation with Hassan
>omg wtf why are a bunch of professional mages (aka professional assholes) acting like total assholes instead of a bunch of naive children
Nah user. I'd rather not have magic at all then get raped by worms on a daily basis for a decade.
>It's not like he has any idea what kind of shit Zouken is going to put her through.
He had SOME idea. If that was what it took for Sakura to live up to her potential, than so be it.
Nothing would have made Tokiomi prouder than watching his daughters using near-Magic to fight to the death over the Holy Grail.
They didn't send Iri as a master though, she was just pretending
It's not a rape if you consent, user. If you accept it, it's just free sex everyday, along with superpowers. Sex and strength. Two of the things people seek the most.
There's a hundred of them. At least a few will be nice enough to talk to. We know there was a little girl assassin with a personality nice enough to get along with Waver. Good enough for Iri.
>but he didn't have to ignore Saber completely.
He had to ignore Saber completely because in F/SN Saber said that "he was a cold motherfucker who only ever said three sentences to me" so they had to write around that idiotic restriction when they decided to write Zero.
>He had SOME idea
How would he? Do you think Zouken parades the Matou's original magic around publicly?
Magus families closely guard their secrets and are a terribly uncooperative bunch. Even just seeing a different families' crest is something that literally never happens. The extent of the public knowledge most definitely is that it features insects. Anything more than that, like actual methods and spells, are impossible to get your hands on. Especially in the Matou's case where Zouten is literally the only remaining member of the family.
Yep. People seem to forget that it was F/SN's writing that forced Uro when he was writing Zero to have Kiritsugu ignore Saber the whole time.
>Implying that it's pleasurable to get fucked by the Zouken worms
Zouken's the kind of guy who would send footage of Sakura's "training" to her dad just to fuck with him
Could Kerry have won the HGW with Assassin, or is Assassin simply too weak?
He won with a Saber he didn't really even use. Obviously he'd only dominate even harder with a servant that would have fit him.
There's nothing wrong with a character being an asshole. Kotomine's entire character revolves around him being a sadistic sociopath to the core, yet he is easily one of the most interesting and well-written characters in all of Fate.
The problem with Zero's character writing is that most of those assholes are not very interesting. Team COOL is so cartoonishly edgy and one-dimensional it's laughable. Kiritsugu is a manchild. Kayneth becomes sympathetic only because he's treated so cruelly by assholes even worse than he is. Gilgamesh just lounges around like a douche 90% of the time and is only interesting when interacting with Rider and Waver.
Yes, with Avalon she is incredibly OP, beyond Gilgamesh level (which is why she generally lacks that when she is summoned)
>Even if she was tossed around and played with when she had Avalon in Fate,
Yet, there is no bad ending in that route as long as you give Avalon to her, meaning her victory is certain.
>even if she admits her strategy for victory is suicidal and winning would be a miracle
F/SN is full of purple prose. Lack of bad endings when she has Avalon shows that there really was only one outcome for that fight.
>Only what you say is true. Excalibur destroys RMs. Excalibur's beam doesn't travel in a straight path, but instead will sweep over Iskandar's army.
Excalibur is an AOE attack that doesn't necessarily needs to be released vertically. Alter shows that to you, secondary.
>Avalon completely makes her invincible and nothing can beat her with Avalon
I never said that. I just said that she is OP, has a good chance of beating Gil and would certainly beat a shitter like DUDE